O-A visa 2005

[elviajero]

8 hours ago, jacko45k said:

No, we need a current entry permit to stay based on a Non-Imm-O. 

I have an old USA Visa in my old passport long-long expired, I would not claim to have a USA Visa. I don't. 

That is a false comparison. A Thai visa used for entry remains valid until the person eventually leaves the country whether that's after the initial entry or a gazzilion extensions.

 

8 hours ago, jacko45k said:

You are arguing semantics that frankly muddies the waters wrt the old Visa/Permit/Extension argument. 

The OP asked a very simple question, and the very simple answer is yes.

 

[elviajero]

8 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

So, if they pass the insurance for the O-A visa I would have to have insurance because I had an O-A visa 15 years ago?

No. That proposal is for people buying a new visa from an embassy/consulate.

[elviajero]

8 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

14 hours ago, elviajero said:

You accept that we need a non-immigrant visa to extend a stay, but claim the OP does not have a visa. That is a contradiction.

Where did I write specifically he did not have a visa?  He certainly does not a valid visa.

In the second sentence quoted above, except now you're adding "valid". I have already said the visa is no longer valid for future entries. 

 

You were saying that a non-immigrant visa is required to extend a stay, but claim he does not have a visa. You are conflating a visa being valid for entry with a one used to enter that remains relevant for future extensions.

 

Quote

All he has is permit to stay from a visa that expired many years ago. His old visa in insignificant now other than to prove he has been extending a entry from a non immigrant visa.

Again, you are contradicting yourself. How can it be insignificant when it is a requirement to get the first extension. Subsequent extensions are a given if extending on the same basis, but if he wanted to change from retirement to work, he almost certainly wouldn't be able to because the class of non-immigrant visa used to enter the country is the wrong class.

 

Quote

If have no visa in my passport now. The only thing I have is a stamp stating I used a non-o visa plus where and when it was issued.

Doesn't that prove my point? They keep a record of the entry visa because it is relevant to all future extensions.

Edited July 9, 2019 by elviajero

[fishtank]

17 minutes ago, elviajero said:

That is a false comparison. A Thai visa used for entry remains valid until the person eventually leaves the country whether that's after the initial entry or a gazzilion extensions.

 

The OP asked a very simple question, and the very simple answer is yes.

 

The very simple answer is no.

[GroveHillWanderer]

1 hour ago, soisanuk said:

The initial announcement by the Ministry of Public Health (MoPH) stating the Cabinet had approved the health insurance requirement for obtaining a Non-Immigrant O-A Visa also said it would apply to "renewal" of the Visa.   IMO, the individual did not fully understand the Visa vs Permission to Stay issue as there is no such thing as "renewal of an O-A Visa" - if it expires, one can apply for a new one at a Thai Embassy/Consulate in their country of residence, but that is not a renewal.

Except that's not what he said. Dr Natthawut Prasertsiripong, Chief of the MoPH Department of Health Service Support, said that:

 

Quote

The requirement applies to all new applicants for one-year non-immigrant O-A visas, and for those applying to “renew” their one-year permits-to-stay.

So I think he does know the difference between a visa and a "renewal" of permit-to-stay (aka extension of permission to stay) since he refers to them separately.

 

 

[elviajero]

8 hours ago, lkv said:

When one applies for an extension of stay, what they are extending is not the visa. They are extending the original permission of stay.

 

So when one extends 5 times, they just keep extending the same permission of stay. They just make it longer and longer. That's what they keep extending.

 

An extension of stay is an extension of a permission of stay.

 

The visa expires on the date stated on it: Valid Until. Meaning,  until that date you can use it to be pre-authorised to enter Thailand and receive the associated permission of stay.

 

I hope I did not confuse some, Ubonjoe is saying the same, perhaps in a more clear way.

I don't disagree with any of that. The point that people miss or don't understand is that the visa class used to enter determines everything that happens thereafter until the person eventually leaves. That being the case the OP visa class is 'Non O-A' and will remain so until he leaves. He is here on an O-A visa.

[lkv]

@elviajero

 

A visa expires at the date printed on it, valid until.

 

A single entry visa with the word used on it is still valid, if it's not expired, but not usable anymore, since the single associated permission of stay has been granted.

 

When someone enters visa exempt, it means he entered without a visa and still received a permission of stay. 30 days.

 

When one extends that 30 days for another 30 days, he is extending his permission of stay. He had no visa. It was visa exempt.

 

When Immigration converts a tourist visa into a non O visa, what they do is they change the visa class, assuming that visa is not expired yet, even if it has the word used on it.

 

Visas don't get transferred to a new passport, permissions of stay do. That's why, if for example one is using a multiple entry visa of any kind, they will not transfer it to a new passport, only the permission of stay will get transferred, as extended as it may be or not.

 

 

 

 

[elviajero]

8 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

Yes 

I can recall it being done. But in most cases it was done after the 90 day entry had been extended.

Only the most pedant offices will make a problem for having a non immigrant visa entry that does not match the reason for the extension being applied for.

The "pedant office" are the ones following the system by the book!

 

Do you recall the countless reports that I do of people being sent out of the country because they have the wrong visa class for the extension they are applying for?

 

[lkv]

2 minutes ago, elviajero said:

 That being the case the OP visa class is 'Non O-A' and will remain so until he leaves. He is here on an O-A visa.

All the visa class does is it determines the maximum duration of the permission of stay, subject to IO approval.

 

Then you keep extending the same permission of stay.

 

[elviajero]

2 minutes ago, lkv said:

All the visa class does is it determines the maximum duration of the permission of stay, subject to IO approval.

 

Then you keep extending the same permission of stay.

It also determines the reason an extension can be granted. That's the whole point of having different visa classes.

[elviajero]

7 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

8 hours ago, wgdanson said:

Been on retirement extensions since 2012 using that Visa, which is now transferred to my new passport.

Your visa was not transferred. They did a stamp with spaces on it  for info about the visa you used for entry that you have been extending along with info about your old passport when you got a new passport.

Here is the stamp or one similar to what you got.

Sorry, but I don't see how you can say that the visa is not transferred when you post a picture of a stamp transferring all the visa information to the new passport.

 

They may not unstick the old visa and insert it in the new passport, but the 'transfer stamp' is the same as if they had. It is a record of the entry visa because it's required for any/all future extensions.

[lkv]

5 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Sorry, but I don't see how you can say that the visa is not transferred when you post a picture of a stamp transferring all the visa information to the new passport.

 

Because the visa information has been transferred, not the visa itself. Visa has expired at the Valid Until date. And visas do not get transferred, even unexpired.

 

Permissions of stay get transferred. The stamp just confirms where that permission of stay comes from.

 

????

Edited July 9, 2019 by lkv

[elviajero]

1 minute ago, lkv said:

Because the visa information has been transferred, not the visa itself. Visa has expired at the Valid Until date.

I know the visa has expired, and I know they don't physically transfer the visa.

 

Why do they transfer the visa information?

 

[lkv]

5 minutes ago, elviajero said:

I know the visa has expired, and I know they don't physically transfer the visa.

 

Why do they transfer the visa information?

 

So that there is a proof in the passport of the basis on which the permission of stay has been granted and where it's coming from.

 

Because you are moving a permission of stay from one passport to another.

Edited July 9, 2019 by lkv

[elviajero]

5 minutes ago, lkv said:

So that there is a proof in the passport of the basis on which the permission of stay has been granted and where it's coming from.

Exactly. Every new permit to stay is granted on the basis type/class of the original entry visa; which is why the visa information is transferred.

Edited July 9, 2019 by elviajero

[lkv]

1 minute ago, elviajero said:

Exactly. Every new permit to stay is granted on the basis type/class of the original entry visa.

I did not argue with you on that. The argument was just that the visa itself was long expired. ????

[peterb17]

Did OA Visas exist in 2005? I don’t think so- I might be incorrect.

 

To be honest the visa system here is not rocket science ( which is very very tricky and requires several PhD s ) 

 

Stick to the law ( don’t go off-piste) and rules- it’s simple . 

[GroveHillWanderer]

Having had something on which another thing is subsequently based, is not the same as still having the thing.

 

I had an O-A visa and my extensions of permission to stay ever since are based on it, but I don't still have it. If I did, I would still be able to go out and come back without getting a re-entry permit - but I can't, because I don't still have an O-A visa.

 

It's the same principle as saying that I had 4 million Baht, based on which I was able to buy a condominium which I now rent out for 200,000 Baht a year (imaginary figures, of course). The fact that I continue to get this regular yearly rental is based on the 4 million Baht I had before but I don't still have it.

[elviajero]

Just now, lkv said:

I did not argue with you on that. The argument was just that the visa itself was long expired. ????

And I agree the visa is long expired, making it invalid for future entry.

 

The OP asked if he's still on a O-A visa, my answer is yes. Because it is the class of visa last used to enter the country and that allows him to extend his stay based on retirement.

[lkv]

1 minute ago, elviajero said:

The OP asked if he's still on a O-A visa, my answer is yes. Because it is the class of visa last used to enter the country and that allows him to extend his stay based on retirement.

And our answer is no ????

Edited July 9, 2019 by lkv

[503726]

18 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

On reentry the arrival card asks for VISA #. Sort of strange when you do not have a visa. You have permission of stay based on whatever. The "visa number" is your reentry permit number.

 

This is my experience too.

 

An IO pointed my re-entry permit number out as the reference required when I asked him. 

[DrJack54]

If I entered on an O-A many years ago my extensions do not have to be based on retirement. Subsequently if I got married I could present for next extension and apply based on married to a Thai. Or parent of a Thai or whatever. Surely I don't need to obtain a new non O (marriage)....I just need to apply for extension satisfying the requirements??

Edited July 9, 2019 by DrJack54

[lkv]

1 minute ago, 503726 said:

This is my experience too.

 

An IO pointed my re-entry permit number out as the reference required when I asked him. 

Well yeah, correct terminology is difficult for them, it gives them headaches.

 

That's why they refer to extensions of stay as "renew your retirement visa" ????

[ubonjoe]

10 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Surely I don't need to obtain a new non O (marriage)....I just need to apply for extension satisfying the requirements??

No you do not need get a new non-o visa. You just change the reason for your extension of stay.

[elviajero]

12 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

If I entered on an O-A many years ago my extensions do not have to be based on retirement. Subsequently if I got married I could present for next extension and apply based on married to a Thai. Or parent of a Thai or whatever. Surely I don't need to obtain a new non O (marriage)....I just need to apply for extension satisfying the requirements??

Yes, you could extend a stay as a spouse with you current visa class. An O-A visa is a long stay visa, it's not specific to retirement only.

Edited July 9, 2019 by elviajero

[ubonjoe]

26 minutes ago, peterb17 said:

Did OA Visas exist in 2005? I don’t think so- I might be incorrect.

Yes they did.

 

[lkv]

53 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Every new permit to stay is granted on the basis type/class of the original entry visa;

This is what's incorrect.

 

An extension of an existing permission of stay is not a new permit to stay.

 

It's simply extending the same stay, i.e. the existing permission of stay.

 

To be very pedantic ????

 

It does matter in the sense that you are not asking them for a new permission of stay, you're doing that only on multiple entry visas upon entry in the country (or a new visa).

 

You are saying to them: you already let me stay for one year, extend that to two years.

Edited July 9, 2019 by lkv

[elviajero]

9 minutes ago, lkv said:

This is what's incorrect.

 

An extension of an existing permission of stay is not a new permit to stay.

Yes it is.

 

Every TM.7 application is to apply for a new extension of stay. If granted a NEW Stay Permit is stamped in the passport granting that stay.

 

Quote

It's simply extending the same stay, i.e. the existing permission of stay.

 

To be very pedantic ????

 

It does matter because you are not asking them for a new permission of stay, you're doing that only on multi entry visas upon entry in the country.

 

You are saying to them: you already let me stay for one year, extend that to two years.

Sorry, but you are wrong. The reason we have to jump through the hoops every year is because it is a brand new application to extend our stay.

 

p.s. And when processing the new application they check to make sure you have an acceptable visa class from when you entered the country.

Edited July 9, 2019 by elviajero

[lkv]

5 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Sorry, but you are wrong. The reason we have to jump through the hoops every year is because it is a brand new application to extend our stay.

How am I wrong?

 

Of course you have to submit an application requesting them to extend your existing permission of stay, and attach to that application the required documentation to satisfy them so that they keep extending the stay.

Edited July 9, 2019 by lkv

[lkv]

16 minutes ago, elviajero said:

p.s. And when processing the new application they check to make sure you have an acceptable visa class from when you entered the country.

Yeah so?

 

Which is why when you change passports they refer to the visa information stamp, the one that tells them what visa class you originally had on that visa that long expired (in the previous passport, that they can't see anymore).

Edited July 9, 2019 by lkv