Is this shower system wired correctly?

[StevieAus]

3 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

Aus is TNC-S with MEN (Multiple Earthed Neutral) with a local ground rod and N-E linked in the distribution board.

 

Thailand is moving towards the same arrangement with a slightly different N-E linking arrangement which is electrically the same.

 

That said, there is still a significant chunk of the country that does not have the required neutral grounding in place (a grounding rod at every 3rd pole) if this grounding is not in place it would be unwise to add a N-E link in your board leaving your installation as TT. If this is the case then an RCD/RCBO is essential.

Thanks for the explanation much appreciated, I know when we had the house built insisting on safety requirements and there are grounding rods and one  one of those safety units next to the consumer unit

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

 

Can you please explain what you mean by "internally grounded".

I suspect he means like my house where the earth rod is within the building structure rather than one you can get at. The earth wire runs from the distribution box down through the cavity, cavity wall construction, and on to the rod, the top of which is in the concrete of the verandah floor.

[natway09]

Please correct me if I am wrong but with double insulated appliances these days does what we call positive & negative matter in a single phase appliance ??

[xtrnuno41]

I do see a ground coming in and then disappears under the electronic board.

 

However i can not see the copper tank and water inlet is grounded.

The tank is metal and the inlet is metal.

They should be grounded. Separate ground connections should be made on the metal parts, maybe they are there or maybe not and thats not good.

You should look at it, but FIRST SHUT OFF POWER. IN FUSE BOX

 

Also you should have a proper working ground rod outside your house. Is it there or not? Find it to see if its there.

IF they started to connect ground to neutral to accomplish some ground, you can have problems when they flipped the wires and not being consisted in their connections.

IN your mainbox fuses you can see what they did and see if there is a ground wire going somewhere out.

Ground isnt just a copper rod in the ground, it should also be in the right place, best place is in moist ground. Staying moist all year. IF the ground gets dry, the resistance change and ther for safety. IT should be measured with special device, but guess Thailand isnt that secure about it.?

 

Only pure water (PH7) , completely neutral, doesnt conduct current.

Water is always or some sour or base and then it can conduct current.

SO then you feel it on the taps , which are metal. The power is conducted by the water to the taps. No matter if you use plastic or metal pipes.

 

To be more safe, you could replace the fuse for the shower to one combined with a T safety cut off   or place with existing fuse in series a safety T cut off.

This one shuts off at a difference between in and out (between the 2 wires) of 30 mA.

You will feel but then it shuts off.

In Thailand many things can and will go wrong with electricity, due to lack of education and the serious thoughts about electricity, as it can kills you in a jiffy.

[tjo o tjim]

It is quite troublesome how many people think line and neutral don’t matter here.

 

The issue is equipment switches the line conductor only, which is why OP originally had issues with the shower. If you open the neutral instead of the line conductor then you still have live conductors to the heating element. If this happens and you have a ground fault (or even earth leakage from a computer power supply) in the system then you will get a shock. Making matters worse, the internal RCD will also try to open the neutral conductor and the fault will persist. 

 

The only time you don’t care about line or neutral is if you have an ungrounded system, in which case all switches and breakers need to be two-pole, ideally with ground fault protection everywhere. 

[alacrity]

8 hours ago, Tbone999 said:

Doesn't make a difference which way round they are, in Thailand, there is an equal amount of voltage on each wire, they adopted the US way of doing things although using a different voltage, in the UK, there is 240V on the live wire (hence the fuse) and the other is a neutral reference.

It does if you're using an earth referenced trip (ELCB).

[Crossy]

11 hours ago, natway09 said:

Please correct me if I am wrong but with double insulated appliances these days does what we call positive & negative matter in a single phase appliance ??

 

This is true, polarity is unimportant and an earth is not required for a Class-2 (double insulated) appliance.

 

However the water heater in question is not a Class-2 appliance, it is Class-1.

 

Modern appliances generally don't care about polarity (but see the note earlier about switches), but if polarity is marked it is best practice to follow the marking.

 

[Crossy]

9 hours ago, alacrity said:

It does if you're using an earth referenced trip (ELCB).

 

This is untrue, an RCD (Residual Current Device) does not care about polarity and does not require an earth to function.

 

Note that the device properly known as an ELCB (or VOELCB) is no longer used in domestic applications, they are still found in specialist installations but the RCD is far superior in most respects.

 

[hatewaitin]

I know AC wiring in Thailand can only be described as substandard. 

Usually as other have said the circuits are not earthed. 

I notice you show a picture of an earth leakage breaker. 

I don't think it will work effectively without an earth at the premise. 

If I owned a building in Thai the 1st change would be the wiring and it would have to comply with my home country so that I K ow I will not die from stupid people. Well at least minimize that chance. 

Suggest you do the same

 

[Denim]

However you wire it the finished job should look like this :

 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

13 minutes ago, hatewaitin said:

Usually as other have said the circuits are not earthed. 

I notice you show a picture of an earth leakage breaker. 

I don't think it will work effectively without an earth at the premise. 

Did you not read the previous post?

 

The standard RCD/RCCB work by detecting the difference in current flow in the neutral and line wires. So if that difference is caused by the current flowing through you or an earth wire makes no difference.

 

No an earth is not needed for those safety devices to function. 

 

This does not not mean that you don't need an earthed system, as I'm sure you would prefer not to have a shocking experience ???? 

 

 

Edited July 26, 2019 by sometimewoodworker

[sometimewoodworker]

14 minutes ago, Denim said:

However you wire it the finished job should look like this :

 

 

I sincerely hope that that is supposed to be a sick joke.

 

Edited July 26, 2019 by sometimewoodworker

[Denim]

5 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

I sincerely hope that that is supposed to be a sick joke.

 

It is the correct way to do it in the mother in laws annex.

[sometimewoodworker]

2 minutes ago, Denim said:

 

It is the correct way to do it in the mother in laws annex.

It is never correct anywhere. It is a death trap and whoever allowed it must hate the people living (at the moment) there

[Denim]

Just now, sometimewoodworker said:

It is never correct anywhere. It is a death trap and whoever allowed it must hate the people living (at the moment) there

 

I really cannot believe that you would take an obviously humorous post seriously. Of course its a bloody death trap. A complete idiot would know that which is the point of it. The bloke in the picture would have to be brain dead to install an electric outlet under a shower ..............duh.

 

Really , calm down and see the funny side of it. 

 

If someone said they could not see if there was any petrol in their motorcycle gas tank and a picture was posted showing a fool with a lit match over the filler cap trying to peer in would you be equally shocked and say that it was very dangerous and should never be done ???

 

Think about it.

[sometimewoodworker]

4 minutes ago, Denim said:

I really cannot believe that you would take an obviously humorous post seriously.

The reason for emojis is to make sure that the post is taken as a joke when it is.

 

Regretably there are people who read this forum who are sufficient reasoning impaired who could believe it was OK. 

[Denim]

2 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

The reason for emojis is to make sure that the post is taken as a joke when it is.

 

Regretably there are people who read this forum who are sufficient reasoning impaired who could believe it was OK. 

 

I should like to meet such a poster. A rare bird indeed.

 

Having said that, I once had a colleague who was trying to screw the timing case back on his motorcycle. Just 4 screws. I arrived at his home to hear him swearing and getting pretty worked up.

He had taken the case off easily but now the screws would not bite going back in. I observed. I then advised him to try screwing with a clockwise motion instead of anti clockwise. Sorted.

 

I was amazed to discover he did not know that screws came out counterclockwise  but went in clockwise. He was 30 years old and had never used a screwdriver before . Incredible !!

[Crossy]

4 hours ago, Denim said:

I was amazed to discover he did not know that screws came out counterclockwise  but went in clockwise. He was 30 years old and had never used a screwdriver before . Incredible !!

 

Sadly we do indeed have members like this, we have to be a little careful with the jokes. But yours was pretty obvious.

 

Meanwhile, in the distant past I owned a long-wheelbase Transit van. This was the model with the double wheels at the back so it was truck-style. I was attempting to remove the left-front wheel, it wasn't budging even with a 6 foot scaffolding bar on the wheelbrace. A mate who owned a rather larger truck wandered past and muttered in a stage whisper "left hand thread". Until that time I never knew that truck wheels had left-hand threads on the left side. I will never forget.

 

[Denim]

1 minute ago, Crossy said:

 

Until that time I never knew that truck wheels had left-hand threads on the left side. I will never forget.

 

 

Well even I know that. 

 

Well I know it now anyways. Didn't know when I got up today.

I guess the moral is that we are never too old to learn and that sometimes you can teach old dogs new tricks.

[gunderhill]

6 hours ago, Denim said:

However you wire it the finished job should look like this :

 

 

That socket is dangerously low, you could easily catch your  knee on it.....honestly, some common sense wouldnt go amiss!!

[Denim]

1 hour ago, gunderhill said:

That socket is dangerously low, you could easily catch your  knee on it.....honestly, some common sense wouldnt go amiss!!

To be honest , I think that picture is a fake made for the purpose of a joke since nobody could possibly be that stupid.

[Crossy]

1 hour ago, Denim said:

 ... nobody could possibly be that stupid.

 

I really would not bet on that ????

 

[sometimewoodworker]

31 minutes ago, Crossy said:

1 hour ago, Denim said:

 ... nobody could possibly be that stupid.

 

I really would not bet on that ????

 

There's a limit to intelligence, but none to stupid.

 

I can easily believe that something like that exists somewhere, though the picture clearly isn't from Thailand.

[Denim]

1 hour ago, sometimewoodworker said:

There's a limit to intelligence, but none to stupid.

 

I can easily believe that something like that exists somewhere, though the picture clearly isn't from Thailand.

 

Well....on the bright side it should only be a mistake he makes once. If whoever takes a shower survives it will sure as hell be a lesson learnt ! ( you would hope )

 

Grouting and tiling a bit dodgy too and the chrome shower rail is for members of the Harlem Globe Trotters only.

[alacrity]

13 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

This is untrue, an RCD (Residual Current Device) does not care about polarity and does not require an earth to function.

 

Note that the device properly known as an ELCB (or VOELCB) is no longer used in domestic applications, they are still found in specialist installations but the RCD is far superior in most respects.

 

The op's picture showed a label which identified ELCB.

[moontang]

7 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

Sadly we do indeed have members like this, we have to be a little careful with the jokes. But yours was pretty obvious.

 

Meanwhile, in the distant past I owned a long-wheelbase Transit van. This was the model with the double wheels at the back so it was truck-style. I was attempting to remove the left-front wheel, it wasn't budging even with a 6 foot scaffolding bar on the wheelbrace. A mate who owned a rather larger truck wandered past and muttered in a stage whisper "left hand thread". Until that time I never knew that truck wheels had left-hand threads on the left side. I will never forget.

 

cv joints and toilet tank handles, too.

[Crossy]

11 hours ago, alacrity said:

The op's picture showed a label which identified ELCB

 

Actually it says "Earth Leakage Breaker" (it's an RCD in the box).

 

It's really semantics, the devices we should all have are variously referred to, dependant upon where in the world you are, as:-

 

RCD, GFI, GFCI, RCCB, ELB, Safe-T-Cut, Trip, Safety Switch and a plethora of others (and of course ELCB).

 

For the purposes of our discussions they are all the same device which measures the difference between the current in the live and neutral wires. If that exceeds a certain level (usually 30mA) the device assumes the "missing" current is going somewhere it shouldn't (through you) and disconnects the circuit, hopefully saving your life.

 

The term ELCB (Earth Leakage Circuit Breaker) really refers to a different device which is not used in domestic installations. It is often used incorrectly to refer to an RCD etc.

 

You will almost certainly NOT find a "real" ELCB in Thailand so it's reasonably safe to assume that anyone / thing referring to an ELCB is actually talking about an RCD (unless they're talking about High Voltage distribution systems of course).

 

[Crossy]

As an aside, this is the electrical engineer Charles Dalziel (1904–1986) who was a professor of electrical engineering and computer sciences at UC Berkeley.

 

 

He has saved countless lives by coming up with the brilliant idea of the ground-fault circuit interrupter around 1960. He began patenting the idea in January 1961 and was finally granted a patent in October 1965. Among the benefits of the invention that Dalziel listed were high enough current sensitivity to protect people against electrocution, low operating current and energy consumption.

 

[bankruatsteve]

Dalziel.  That doesn't sound Scottish.  ????

[brianthainess]

Had some Thai friends round for dinner, my wife was using an electric barbecue (two pin plug) got a shock from it, a thai bloke jumped up, turned the plug around,problem solved. R C D didn't trip.