'Many killed' in shooting at Walmart in El Paso; suspect in custody

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

7 minutes ago, mogandave said:

Calling on Trump to tell Mitch to pass the bill seems like an easy fix, no?

Except passing the bill will do little or no good.

 

 

People lately have been calling him "Moscow Mitch" for his blocking any legislation aimed at preventing Russian or other foreign election interference...

 

Now perhaps he's deserving of the sobriquet "Massacre Mitch" for exactly the same reasons relating to gun control-related legislation.

 

And now I see, I'm hardly the first one to think of this latest nickname:

 

Edited August 5, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, mogandave said:

 

How did you like Beto’s?

 

I think he went a tad far. Just a tad. I can see his campaign is sinking, he's associated with El Paso, and he sees this as his last best chance for a comeback. I'm not a fan of his but I won't condemn him for speaking close enough to the truth. 

[mogandave]

 
People lately have been calling him "Moscow Mitch" for his blocking any legislation aimed at preventing Russian or other foreign election interference...
 
Now perhaps he's deserving of the sobriquet "Massacre Mitch" for exactly the same reasons relating to gun control-related legislation.
 
And now I see, I'm hardly the first one to think of this latest nickname:
 

Yet the dems get a pass for when they had a chance to pass it and didn’t.

Yes, if we can just get a few more leftists in office using it these deaths will not have been in vain.

[mogandave]

I think he went a tad far. Just a tad. I can see his campaign is sinking, he's associated with El Paso, and he sees this as his last best chance for a comeback. I'm not a fan of his but I won't condemn him for speaking close enough to the truth. 

As I explained in an earlier post, I think he didn’t go far enough

[rabas]

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Please provide a link to the source of the graphic you have presented.

As you see the graph references the Stanford University Geospatial Center's Mass Shootings in America project. Read about it here.

https://library.stanford.edu/projects/mass-shootings-america

https://stanfordmag.org/contents/geospatial-center-tracks-mass-shootings

 

The project provides accurate data to researchers studying mass shootings in a database format as a national resource. Researchers present the data in various graphical forms.

 

Here is one of many articles that uses Stanford data.

 https://thesocietypages.org/feminist/2015/07/23/masculinity-and-mass-shootings/

 

This is not MSM / snoops.com data.  It's from professors and  universities, you can search for the rest of their work.  This graph could lead to claims that mass shootings increased greatly under Obama.

 

 

Edited August 5, 2019 by rabas

[Sujo]

5 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

Yes, we all know walls don’t work, people just go around them.

Locking your doors and windows doesn’t work either, people just break in.

 

I have never ever locked my doors. But having a dog helps. See the difference?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

20 minutes ago, mogandave said:

Yet the dems get a pass for when they had a chance to pass it and didn’t.

 

You're playing fast and loose with reality, again... The "Dems" did get a chance and did pass the federal assault weapons law back in 1994 that was signed into law by Dem. President Bill Clinton.

 

Unfortunately, the law had a 10-year sunset provision because that was the best that could be accomplished at the time over Republican and NRA opposition. Then when the law expired a decade later, Dem. President Obama and his admin tried to get the law restored, but the legislation narrowly died in the Senate, primarily because of Republican opposition.

 

Quote

 

The votes were on a series of amendments to a broad package of gun laws pushed by President Barack Obama and Democratic leaders in the aftermath of the Newtown school massacre in December.
 

However, fierce opposition by the powerful National Rifle Association led a backlash by conservative Republicans and a few Democrats from pro-gun states that doomed key proposals in the gun package, even after they had been watered down to try to satisfy opponents.

 

 

https://www.cnn.com/2013/04/17/politics/senate-guns-vote/index.html

 

The blame for the failures over gun control legislation is very clearly in the Republican camp, and they're proud to take credit for stopping such legislation repeatedly. It's disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

 

And the truth is, those Republicans don't see the failure of gun control legislation as "failures."  They see those outcomes as victories for their vision of a guns-besieged America.

 

 

Edited August 5, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Sujo]

34 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

How did you like Beto’s?

 

Is this about the same bill the dems didn’t pass in 2013, yes?

Is it a similar bill that trump wont sign now?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

15 minutes ago, rabas said:

This graph could lead to claims that mass shootings increased greatly under Obama.

 

The rise also could be correlated to the increases in white nationalism and nationalist groups (domestic terrorism) that took root and grew with encouragement from people like Trump, the birther movement, Fox News, etc etc.

[stevenl]

1 minute ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

The rise also could be correlated to the increases in white nationalism and nationalist groups (domestic terrorism) that took root and grew with encouragement from people like Trump, the birther movement, Fox News, etc etc.

Would still be under Obama.

I think his lack of gun control legislation is one of the things he himself is most disappointed with.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 minute ago, stevenl said:

Would still be under Obama.

I think his lack of gun control legislation is one of the things he himself is most disappointed with.

 

Yes, he couldn't get the legislation he and others wanted because of Republican opposition in Congress. I'm sure he does consider it a failure of his administration, but not one for a lack of trying. Rather, one with its roots in too many Americans voting for elected officials who will refuse to do anything meaningful to prevent gun massacres and domestic terrorism.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Meanwhile, words of wisdom from the societal instigator of much of this:

 

Quote

Trump mistakenly refers to shooting in Toledo

 

President Trump on Monday misstated the location of one of two mass shootings that occurred over the weekend during a speech condemning the violence, referring to Toledo, Ohio instead of Dayton, Ohio.
 

"May God bless the memory of those who perished in Toledo, may God protect them. May God protect all of those from Texas to Ohio. May God bless the victims and their families," Trump said from the Diplomatic Room of the White House.

 

 

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/456179-trump-mistakenly-refers-to-shooting-in-toledo

Edited August 5, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[candide]

1 hour ago, candide said:

Thanks for this. Actually I just found out there isn't a standard definition of mass shooting, i.e. in this article by the Rand corporation, they found for 2015: 7 cases in Mother Jone's database, 371 in Mass Shooting Traker, and 65 in Stanford database.

The article cites a study that comes up with the following stats (see graph)

https://www.rand.org/research/gun-policy/analysis/essays/mass-shootings.html

 

 

 

45 minutes ago, rabas said:

As you see the graph references the Stanford University Geospatial Center's Mass Shootings in America project. Read about it here.

https://library.stanford.edu/projects/mass-shootings-america

https://stanfordmag.org/contents/geospatial-center-tracks-mass-shootings

 

The project provides accurate data to researchers studying mass shootings in a database format as a national resource. Researchers present the data in various graphical forms.

 

Here is one of many articles that uses Stanford data.

 https://thesocietypages.org/feminist/2015/07/23/masculinity-and-mass-shootings/

 

This is not MSM / snoops.com data.  It's from professors and  universities, you can search for the rest of their work.  This graph could lead to claims that mass shootings increased greatly under Obama.

 

 

Different sources have different definitions and stats. The graph I posted is from congressional research, and relies among others on FBI data.

The Stanford University is quite cautious about the validity of the findings. Stanford states that its database is maintained by students and interns among others, and is not fully reliable. It also counts mass shootings from 3 fatalities (other studies may count from 4). 

Additionally the Stanford Mass Shootings in America database, which relies solely on online media sources to identify mass shooting events, cautions its users, “Data in the [database] spans a time period that includes the transition from traditional media to digital media in reporting. Numbers of incidents per year should at least in part be assumed to reflect this collection methodology and not just changes in incident frequency.” Thus, the more than threefold surge in mass shooting incidents from 2014 to 2015 shown in the Stanford data likely reflects increased online reporting and not necessarily a true increase in the rate of mass shootings.

 

The Rand article provides a good analysis of the different ways to measure mass shootings:

https://www.rand.org/research/gun-policy/analysis/essays/mass-shootings.html

 

Edited August 5, 2019 by candide

[amexpat]

On 8/4/2019 at 7:54 AM, daoyai said:

It does not matter if the shooter had some twisted political or ethnocentric beliefs, this not a political act. It is pathetic that it will be used by some to hate and vilify the president and his supporters. This is an individual act. 

[wayned]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Meanwhile, words of wisdom from the societal instigator of much of this:

 

 

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/456179-trump-mistakenly-refers-to-shooting-in-toledo

I watched the news conference and thought that it should have been a SNL skit.  It looked like he was shitting his pants as he was trying so hard to display a feeling of empathy.   No mention of gun control, only mental health and "bad" video games.  There must not be a powerful video game lobby!

[mogandave]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Yes, he couldn't get the legislation he and others wanted because of Republican opposition in Congress. I'm sure he does consider it a failure of his administration, but not one for a lack of trying. Rather, one with its roots in too many Americans voting for elected officials who will refuse to do anything meaningful to prevent gun massacres and domestic terrorism.

 

he couldn't get it through the Democrat senate  

[mogandave]

1 hour ago, Sujo said:

Is it a similar bill that trump wont sign now?

There is not gun bill waiting for Trump's signature, please try to keep up.

[usviphotography]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Meanwhile, words of wisdom from the societal instigator of much of this:

 

 

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/456179-trump-mistakenly-refers-to-shooting-in-toledo

Trump doesn't do well on teleprompters reading stuff written by others. Speech was lousy, but remember that Trump gets his news from the TV not the net, and Tucker Carlson hasn't aired in America yet. So Trump probably literally doesn't even know about the political affiliations of the Dayton Shooter yet. He'll be better tomorrow and in the days ahead. That speech was probably something Ivanka threw together, and she was the one who allowed "Toledo" on to the board. 

[wayned]

1 hour ago, usviphotography said:

Trump doesn't do well on teleprompters reading stuff written by others. Speech was lousy, but remember that Trump gets his news from the TV not the net, and Tucker Carlson hasn't aired in America yet. So Trump probably literally doesn't even know about the political affiliations of the Dayton Shooter yet. He'll be better tomorrow and in the days ahead. That speech was probably something Ivanka threw together, and she was the one who allowed "Toledo" on to the board. 

He is really a puppet with multiple puppeteers! Was Toledo a mistake on the teleprompter or put there on purpose to see if he would make a fool out of himself?  He did!!  

 

The next time he is talking about foreign policy and Thailand comes up they should but the 167 letter true name for Bangkok on the teleprompter and see him dance!

[heybruce]

7 hours ago, rabas said:

"I'm going to go out on a limb here..."

 

I see you brought your own saw.....

 

With no reference to race, peoples, countries, or nationalists I used pure logic to suggest if no one fired back in all that time it may have been because the people didn't have guns.  The rest is your own making.

In 2016 Texas had over one million people with concealed carry licenses. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/12/us/licensed-to-carry-handguns-in-texas.html That is almost 4% of the population.  The odds that not one of 1000+ customers in Walmart at the time had a gun is remote.  A much more likely explanation is that those who had guns were trying to get to safety, not trying to engage in a shoot out.

[heybruce]

6 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

Republicans and NRA don't have veto power and the Democrats in the congress don't have the balls to write legislation.  You  must not be an American because you know nothing about our legal system.  

Wrong:  https://www.npr.org/2019/02/27/698512397/house-passes-most-significant-gun-bill-in-2-decades

[heybruce]

5 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

Yeah, but but but Trump right?

Mass shootings tripled during the Obama Administration, the Dayton shooter is a lefty, but it all Trumps fault.

We get it...

By my count there were 37 mass shooting in the eight years of Obama.  There have been 30 mass shooting in less than three years of Trump.  https://www.statista.com/statistics/811487/number-of-mass-shootings-in-the-us/

 

Why do you maintain the Dayton shooter "is a lefty"?  Do you have evidence that his actions were motivated by political ideology?

[heybruce]

6 hours ago, Mel52 said:

I also spent 21 years in the military and I’ve been to combat 5 times so I also understand how bad violence is I know how it effects people and how it permanently changes people.

 

I was in the Air Force for 20 years.  No combat.  Before being allowed to handle a gun I was given training by an NCO who made it clear he would shoot any trainee who handled their weapon in an irresponsible manner.  Most of the training focused on safety.  I assume your initial weapons training was similar.

 

I am not opposed to gun ownership, but want it regulated in much the same manner as vehicle ownership, and I want the regulation to require gun safety training.  I don't want untrained idiots owning guns, and I don't see how to prevent that without changes to US gun laws.

[heybruce]

5 hours ago, Mel52 said:

I mean what would really happen if they stopped selling guns right now? What about the guns that are already out there? There’s a huge portion of the population of the United States including from the criminals who will never just peacefully give up their guns. In the long term that would make the violence worse at least for many years to come. So really what do we do about it? I honestly mean that I have no political agenda at all, I don’t care about the gun rights debate or the gun control debate, I’m thinking “no really what do we do”?

 

Pass laws requiring gun owners to be licensed and guns to be registered, much like drivers and vehicles.  Then let the police start confiscating unregistered guns and arresting unlicensed people carrying guns.

[emptypockets]

17 hours ago, chrisinth said:

I was thinking similar thoughts. I am however confused as to how the shooter was not confronted during his 20 minutes of mayhem during which time so many lost their lives.

 

Probably a question for later given the tragedy that has just occurred, but I can't help wondering how many people inside Walmart's that day had a Texan LTC (License to Carry) permit and after all the hype we hear about armed citizens being able to make a difference to situations like this, nothing appeared to have happened?

Sounds easy and logical. But in reality not so easy. OK hero pulls his gun fires at a shooter. Shooter is one of two or three.. return fire .ooops...dead hero. Another scenario - hero pulls his weapon, shoots the shooter who  happens to be a cop trying to save peoples lives - whoops. Not so simple is it?

Not my words. I'm in Thailand listening to a night time talk back radio programme in Australia on an app. The guy who said the above was from Florida, also listening and talking on line. Quite fascinating.

Edited August 5, 2019 by emptypockets

[emptypockets]

17 hours ago, kingdong said:

they banned handguns in the uk,every licensed owner had to hand them in,it didn,t stop gun crime,it went up the year after the ban,the amount of illegally held guns in the usa is collasal,how does anybody imagine these could be eradicated? they could take the soft option and go after the legally held and registered guns but that would leave the former law abiding citizen unable to defend himself or herself against armed criminals,fraid theres no easy fixes to this scenario.

Watched a black comedian from the US talking about exactly the same thing. He said make bullets $500 dollars each. Problem solved.

Have the 2nd and keep the guns - just can't afford the ammo.

[candide]

 

3 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Meanwhile, words of wisdom from the societal instigator of much of this:

 

 

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/456179-trump-mistakenly-refers-to-shooting-in-toledo

What a moron! ????????????

“May God bless the memory of those who perished in Toledo,” the president said, referring to a city more than 100 miles away from Dayton, the location of a massacre on Sunday. “May God protect them. May God protect all of those from Texas to Ohio. May God bless the victims and their families. May God bless America.”

 

I nearly pissed in my pants! ????

[emptypockets]

17 hours ago, Sandy Freckle said:

I am all about selectivity when releasing information surrounding these incidents ..., all the details do not need to be divulged to everyone..., releasing 'all' the information simply gives these people and organisations exactly what they crave the most..., it's why they commit these crimes against humanity - publicity !
Surely good people would 'get' the reason why it's not a good thing to promote the perpetrators cause or the method that perpetrator or organisation chose to use to enact their heinous actions ? By releasing 'all' of the information surrounding these acts the media simply 'helps' in the promotion of further acts of this nature.

 Just a little bit more that a 'missionary position' imagination is all it would take...., 
 

I take the opposite view.

In Australia paedophiles and child rapists cannot be named as it may identify the victims. I'm sure the people who know the victims are well aware of who the offender is. Nobody else does though. 5 or 10  years down the track that <deleted> could be living in your street and you will never know until it happens again. Wrong in my opinion.

[emptypockets]

4 minutes ago, candide said:

 

What a moron! ????????????

“May God bless the memory of those who perished in Toledo,” the president said, referring to a city more than 100 miles away from Dayton, the location of a massacre on Sunday. “May God protect them. May God protect all of those from Texas to Ohio. May God bless the victims and their families. May God bless America.”

 

I nearly pissed in my pants! ????

Easily excited?

[wayned]

51 minutes ago, heybruce said:

I was in the Air Force for 20 years.  No combat.  Before being allowed to handle a gun I was given training by an NCO who made it clear he would shoot any trainee who handled their weapon in an irresponsible manner.  Most of the training focused on safety.  I assume your initial weapons training was similar.

 

I am not opposed to gun ownership, but want it regulated in much the same manner as vehicle ownership, and I want the regulation to require gun safety training.  I don't want untrained idiots owning guns, and I don't see how to prevent that without changes to US gun laws.

I remember when the NRA was known for it's gun safety classes.  Before I got my first rifle my father made me take a course, now they are a Trump puppeteer and seem not to care anything about gun safety.  The rules could be changed to eliminate the high capacity and high rate weapons without affecting those who want to own a gun for hunting and protection.  The weapon that the guy used in Dayton doesn't belong anywhere other than the incinerator!

 

I had a real AK-47 that I brought back from Nam and once I reassembled it I only fired less than a box of amo at targets before I gave it to my BIL 15 years later as I was moving to Southern California.

 

I'm not for abolishing the 2nd amendment but the ownership rules could be changed to make it harder to obtain weapons like this which might. just might, save a few lives but will never eliminate the problem as weapons and the crazies that use them already exist and Trumps rhetoric doesn't help, it emboldens them.