Video: TM30: Thailand’s controversial immigration laws and their consequences - FCCT event

[Jimdandy]

3 hours ago, lamyai3 said:

I know the large Japanese community around Phrom Phong is unhappy with it, along with the increase in police harassment in the area recently. Unfortunately both the Japanese government and the South Korean government have cracked down hard on Thai illegals in their own countries in the past few years, so neither of these nationalities are in a particularly strong position to complain about immigration enforcement here. 

This situation is really a quagmire. THX

[Peterw42]

5 minutes ago, garyk said:

Yes, I have been turned away in CM, hotel did not want to be hassled.

Business must be good if they can afford to not take any foreigners

[KhaoYai]

It seems to me that the only probable solution to this issue, if they are not going to completely reform all forms of reporting, is to change TM28 to be the report done by foreigners when they arrive in the country or return to their residence - not just if they move to another province for longer than 24 hours. Apply the TM30 rules as they are written - i.e. that the housemaster is responsible for registering and stop using non TM30 registration as a reason to refuse visa extensions/90 day reports etc.

 

If, as the rules state, the housemaster is responsible for TM30 reporting then I doubt that there is a legal basis for such refusals - most foreigners are not the housemaster and therefore are not responsible.  However, I doubt anyone would challenge it through the courts ????.

 

So basically what I'm suggesting is that the rules, as they stand could be applied as they are with a tweak to TM28 to make 2 different reporting responsibilities - TM28 for foreigners, TM30 for housemasters. Punishments for non compliance falling on the person actually responsible. So, provided you report your part, there are no repercussions - if your landlord fails to report for example, that's not your problem. If you are both the visitor and the housemaster, you only need to do one of those registrations.

 

I don't think that's the best solution but its clear they are not going to scrap reporting requirements.

 

I still don't understand the situation with 90 day reports though - you are there to report where you are living but they also want a TM30 to.................. report where you are living......bah mak! 

[bluepeter]

William Roth at 1.18.50 on the video asked what uploaded documents were were required for TM30 online registration.

After some confusion it was agreed that two documents were required.......

1) Front and back of the title deeds (Two scans)

2) Passport (One scan)

Making a total of THREE scans

Unfortunately the online form only allows for TWO scans to be uploaded.

Has anyone any idea of what the correct procedure is?

Edited August 17, 2019 by bluepeter

[KhaoYai]

17 minutes ago, bluepeter said:

William Roth at 1.18.50 on the video asked what uploaded documents were were required for TM30 online registration.

After some confusion it was agreed that two documents were required.......

1) Front and back of the title deeds (Two scans)

2) Passport (One scan)

Making a total of THREE scans

Unfortunately the online form only allows for TWO scans.

Has anyone any idea of what the correct procedure is?

What they stated - as per above was actually incorrect and they gave a different account later in the video. Again, probably because of their lack of understanding of English.

 

What is actually required (from a foreigner) is a copy of the registration page (house details) of the housemaster's tabien baan and a copy of the page showing the housemaster's name. You can actually fit both of those on to one scan. Then you need to include a scan of the main page of your passport and I've heard of some offices requiring a copy of the visa/extension for long stayers. Again, it should be possible to combine those all onto one scan - so two pages in total.

 

One thing to be wary of in doing those scans is the 1mb total upload limit.

 

One thing I'm unsure of - Korat Immigration did mine for me, is if, in refering to the Tabien Baan (house registration), they mean the Tabien Baan for where you are staying or the Tabien Baan for where the housemaster lives.  I had copies of both with me and I'm not sure which one they used.

Edited August 17, 2019 by KhaoYai

[Andrew Dwyer]

William Roth at 1.18.50 on the video asked what uploaded documents were were required for TM30 online registration.
After some confusion it was agreed that two documents were required.......
1) Front and back of the title deeds (Two scans)
2) Passport (One scan)
Making a total of THREE scans
Unfortunately the online form only allows for TWO scans to be uploaded.
Has anyone any idea of what the correct procedure is?

Are you sure you can upload only two scans for registration ??
I uploaded 3 ( gf’s ID, first page of TB, second page of TB ) I received the email accepting the registration but not the username and password ( 2 weeks ago ).

Of course it’s probably irrelevant as my IO ( Ayutthaya ) don’t even do 90 day online so the chances of them doing TM 30 online are minimal. [emoji51]

[ThaiLawOnline]

6 hours ago, jackdd said:

http://www.krisdika.go.th/librarian/get?sysid=318871&ext=htm

These people are exempt from immigration act sections 37 (3) and (4), including tourists, people on business and education visas and several more:

I have to say that after looking at that regulation, you are right. So I can't imagine a situation when does apply 37(4). Strange... especially when immigration made recently the following cartoon of section 37 (Look the third section)...Again, immigration seem to make things complicated. So now, we can travel anywhere, but if we sleep outside the province in a friend's house, he must do TM30, and when we are back, the landlord also do TM30? 

[tgw]

1 hour ago, bluepeter said:

William Roth at 1.18.50 on the video asked what uploaded documents were were required for TM30 online registration.

After some confusion it was agreed that two documents were required.......

1) Front and back of the title deeds (Two scans)

2) Passport (One scan)

Making a total of THREE scans

Unfortunately the online form only allows for TWO scans to be uploaded.

Has anyone any idea of what the correct procedure is?

just merge the pictures.

[jackdd]

45 minutes ago, Isaanlawyers said:

I have to say that after looking at that regulation, you are right. So I can't imagine a situation when does apply 37(4).

People who, to my current knowledge, are not exempt from 37 (3) and (4) are these people:

Quote

(๑๑) การปฏิบัติหน้าที่สื่อมวลชน
(๑๒) การเผยแพร่ศาสนาที่ได้รับความเห็นชอบจากกระทรวงทบวงกรมที่เกี่ยวข้อง
(๑๕) การอื่นตามที่กำหนดในกฎกระทรวง

 

Subsection 15 actually contains these people:

Quote

(๑) การปฏิบัติหน้าที่หรือภารกิจในครอบครัวของคนต่างด้าวซึ่งเข้ามาในราชอาณาจักรเป็นการชั่วคราวตามมาตรา ๓๔ (๑) (๒) (๕) (๖) (๗) (๑๐) (๑๑) (๑๒) (๑๓) และ (๑๔) โดยเป็นบิดา มารดา คู่สมรส หรือบุตรซึ่งอยู่ในความอุปการะและเป็นส่วนแห่งครัวเรือนของบุคคลดังกล่าว หรือโดยเป็นคนรับใช้ส่วนตัวตามมาตรา ๑๕ (๗)
(๒) การให้ความอุปการะแก่หรือรับความอุปการะจากบุคคลสัญชาติไทย หรือบุคคลผู้มีถิ่นที่อยู่ในราชอาณาจักร โดยเป็นบิดา มารดา คู่สมรส หรือบุตรซึ่งอยู่ในความอุปการะและเป็นส่วนแห่งครัวเรือนของบุคคลดังกล่าว
(๓) การปฏิบัติหน้าที่ให้แก่รัฐวิสาหกิจหรือองค์การกุศลสาธารณะ
(๔) การเข้ามาในฐานะผู้สูงอายุเพื่อใช้ชีวิตในบั้นปลาย
(๕) การเข้ามาของผู้เคยมีสัญชาติไทยเพื่อเยี่ยมญาติหรือขอกลับเข้ามาอยู่ในราชอาณาจักร
(๖) การเข้ามาเพื่อรับการรักษาพยาบาล
(๗) การเข้ามาเพื่อเป็นผู้ฝึกสอนนักกีฬาตามความต้องการของทางราชการ
(๘) การเข้ามาของคู่ความและพยานเพื่อดำเนินกระบวนพิจารณาอันเกี่ยวกับคดี

http://web.krisdika.go.th/data/law/law2/%a402/%a402-2b-9999-update.htm

 

So all these people are not exempt from section 37 (3) and (4). Retirees and dependents / spouses of Thais seem to be not exempt.

But as explained before, the biggest group of foreigners, tourists, are actually exempt, same as students, non-b visa holders and others.

 

45 minutes ago, Isaanlawyers said:

especially when immigration made recently the following cartoon of section 37 (Look the third section)

I guess an intern made this graphic. Just look at the top left "before you immigrate", like when i immigrate with my tourist or non-immigrant visa?

If i would actually immigrate (aka permanent residency), then i would not have to worry about what is written in this graphic anymore.

Edited August 17, 2019 by jackdd

[scoutman360]

In my situation, I travel abroad every month for work. Does Thailand Immigration think that my landlord will agree to report my travels every month?.. if I tell him? He will just kick me out. He will never rent again to foreigners and sell his condo. Do you think he will risk getting a fine for not reporting his foreigner?

 

From previous threads, the majority of foreigners are from Cambodia and India, etc. Westerners are caught up in the sweep. Does Thailand Immigration really think that the landlords of these poor south-Asian immigrants will report everything about them? They will just stop renting to them and sell the condos and the real estate market is doomed.

[fakser]

Regulation and control of expats is ok but not by torture of honest people.

I have no problem to report every movement in Thailand as long it is convenient by clicking few clicks on my mobile with an application or by allowing the authorities to trace my mobile.

But to spend a day and traveling 50 Kilo meter to Chaeng Wathana each time I leave my condo, is inhuman and insane. 

[lamyai3]

5 hours ago, scoutman360 said:

In my situation, I travel abroad every month for work. Does Thailand Immigration think that my landlord will agree to report my travels every month?.. if I tell him? He will just kick me out. He will never rent again to foreigners and sell his condo. Do you think he will risk getting a fine for not reporting his foreigner?

Right, I think it will prove impossible to even get the documents from the landlord required to register in many cases. 

[gearbox]

10 hours ago, Isaanlawyers said:

I have to say that after looking at that regulation, you are right. So I can't imagine a situation when does apply 37(4). Strange... especially when immigration made recently the following cartoon of section 37 (Look the third section)...Again, immigration seem to make things complicated. So now, we can travel anywhere, but if we sleep outside the province in a friend's house, he must do TM30, and when we are back, the landlord also do TM30? 

 

I'me here on O-A retirement visa but I've never seen this leaflet. Is it distributed at the airport when you land?

 

I've never heard of TM30 before,  only found about it on the TVF.  I had a look and found a nice summary here:

 

https://thethaiger.com/news/national/thailand-keeping-track-of-foreigners-the-tm30-reporting-form

 

My question is, how is this checked and enforced? If the police stops you can they check your immigration paperwork online (on the spot)? I travelled to different provinces before and was never aware that I have to notify anyone.

[Peterw42]

8 minutes ago, gearbox said:

 

I'me here on O-A retirement visa but I've never seen this leaflet. Is it distributed at the airport when you land?

 

I've never heard of TM30 before,  only found about it on the TVF.  I had a look and found a nice summary here:

 

https://thethaiger.com/news/national/thailand-keeping-track-of-foreigners-the-tm30-reporting-form

 

My question is, how is this checked and enforced? If the police stops you can they check your immigration paperwork online (on the spot)? I travelled to different provinces before and was never aware that I have to notify anyone.

The enforcement varies from office to office, I think you will find the leaflet is from one office and its their enforcement.

Where it is enforced, the office may require proof of TM30 before they will process 90 day reports or extensions.

[FarFlungFalang]

Before we had the Big Joke now we have the Big Oud.

The big Oud is the ode of TM30 misery,despair and utter confusion written in the TM30 posts of Thai visa.

[mtls2005]

14 hours ago, bluepeter said:

William Roth at 1.18.50 on the video asked what uploaded documents were were required for TM30 online registration.

After some confusion it was agreed that two documents were required.......

 

Herein lies the major problem.

 

Officials, who may or may not be decison-makers, interpreting the law and the simple ("trust me") reporting systems on-the-fly.

 

Clearly the hotel system was looked upon as a quick-fix when it was wholly inadequate (few registrants, many reportees now being used for many registrants, and few reportees).

 

They should have designed mechanisms to satisfy reporting FIRST.

 

I still think that self-reporting is self-defeating, assuming "national security" is really the goal. The law, and its intent, calls for Thais to report aliens.

 

Suggesting that Thais share their username and password with Aliens just illustrates that this is lunacy, and is more about unwavering obedience to the system, and finding ways to satisfy superiors.

 

The next Erawan Bomber will not be filing a TM30, or been found to have had one filed on their behalf. And if perchance they did I seriously doubt they'll be returning to their accomodations after the deed.

 

With all the police, military/ISOC you'd think they could police without a silly bit of paper?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2019 by mtls2005

[WalkingOrders]

16 hours ago, sfokevin said:

We in the expatriate community are being confronted with a totalitarian and xenophobic policy... I don’t see any reason we should not ask some direct questions even if they come off as rude... 

I will give you the reason: This culture does not confront each other in this manner. Once you learn how to discuss things. It becomes easy to do. But you do not ever want to come off as rude. What would one ever expect to accomplish by coming off rude, and making someone literally feel you are attempting to be rude to them? The moderators behavior was as a western journalist trying to ask gotcha questions. This is very unsettling to a Thai person who is simply not used to someone discussing something this way. Its not a totalitarian policy, its xenophobic but then again, they fly a Thai flag here, and are very intersted in maintaining a distinctly Thai culture here. They have many valid reasons for that if you look at the Thai Geo-political situation. I have no desire to change that, I only would like a easier way. That's it. I am not going to die from this. I hope they the app or come out with a better website. I am able to 90 day report on website with ease. IF they incorporate a TM28 to that website i will be fine. The truth is they have drug dealers, human trafficers, and terrorists to contend with here, and Thai is a language which does not translate to English well. They have very few excellent English speakers here which makes this difficult, which is why a public forum like this - the way this was run actually came across as something that did not help as much as it could. As I said earlier some of those at the table would have been much more helpful in a private setting. Worst case scenario? I pay a 50 dollar fine... which by the way is what my own damn embassy wants to charge me for getting a document notarized. Something that effects me far more often, and pisses me off even more.

[gearbox]

3 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

The enforcement varies from office to office, I think you will find the leaflet is from one office and its their enforcement.

Where it is enforced, the office may require proof of TM30 before they will process 90 day reports or extensions.

Is that all? I did only one 90 days reporting in Samui and I needed only the rental agreement, this is what I remember. From what you write I don't see how they'll make me to report when I go to a different province.     

[metisdead]

An offensive post and a reply has been removed. 

[KhaoYai]

7 hours ago, WalkingOrders said:

I will give you the reason: This culture does not confront each other in this manner. Once you learn how to discuss things. It becomes easy to do. But you do not ever want to come off as rude. What would one ever expect to accomplish by coming off rude, and making someone literally feel you are attempting to be rude to them? The moderators behavior was as a western journalist trying to ask gotcha questions.

Totally agree. It may seem strange to us and I'm sure the moderator didn't realise that he was being rude. In fact, if he was talking to other westerners, his questions would not have been rude.

 

We can call it stupid, petty - whatever but Thai people behave differently to us and who are we to say our way is right?  As guests in the country its up to us to adapt to the Thai way of doing things when interacting with Thais - that is, if we want to achieve anything.

 

Although as I said earlier the older Immigration chief didn't fully understand English, he was clearly uncomfortable with some of the questions he did understand. I believe that may have been because of realisation that the system is wrong but mainly because of the style of questioning.

 

A decent interpretor would have modified the questions with a Thai style inflection and I think the meeting would have gone much more smoothly. It may have even produced results.

 

It also doesn't help when foreigners with strong accents fail to take account of their accent when speaking to non native English speakers and use colloquial language.

Edited August 18, 2019 by KhaoYai

[BobbyL]

Quite a cringey watch for most of it even though I did skim through. It was very obvious the main man sat down hated every moment of that and definitely didn't understand most of the questions. Considering he is the head of immigration then I would have thought he would have had a better level of English. His reply around 1:32 spoke volumes about how much he cares. 

 

Fair play to the guy from immigration who was standing up for the most part trying to answer the questions, although most of his replies said very little apart from the obvious. A real Thai - English interpreter would have been a great addition and it is staggering they didn't think to plan this. The Thai woman who questioned them at 1:21 in both English and Thai made some great points and sadly they weren't answered properly at all. It was good to see people like her making points about how ludicrous this process is. 

[bkkcanuck8]

On 8/17/2019 at 3:53 PM, Navin said:

This whole meeting could have been much more effective only if there was a professional English to Thai to English Interpretarator so that the officers could understand the questions properly and had given more relevant answers in Thai (which they are obviously more comfortable with) be interpreted back in English for the Audience.

The whole event could in fact be counter productive since the policy makers were not there... They had officials there to implement it and thus could not respond any other way than the law is the law and that is what they must abide by.  Having this public spectacle might have felt cathartic for some, but what was necessary was a smaller private meeting with the goal of sending back small but important adjustments to the existing laws to make it easier on the people to abide by them (i.e. being able to register 'permanent' addresses with a contact phone number - where if you are in country and not currently registered on a temporary TM30 (hotel) location -- that is where you can be found).  (if you violate that, then you lose the ability to register permanent addresses and revert to the current regime).

[asiaexpat]

Confronting Thai officials as if they were the president of the USA reaps nothing but resistance and anger from the officials. Thai Immigration police are obligated to enforce the law and they are doing so. Unfortunately, Thai Immigration is enforcing the law through indirect means because they can not seem to enforce it against the intended party, a Thai landlord for the most part. The law is the problem and needs to be revised. As for national security, TM6, TM47 and TM30 are whole ineffective for tracking criminals since they will not comply anyway. It is unfortunate that the panel and club chose this forum to get answers and inspire change.

[tgw]

7 minutes ago, asiaexpat said:

Thai Immigration police are obligated to enforce the law and they are doing so.

no they aren't. there are tons of regulations that aren't being enforced.

[DrTuner]

35 minutes ago, tgw said:

no they aren't. there are tons of regulations that aren't being enforced.

Well technically they are obligated to enforce laws, but as we know, enforcement here is enfarcement. I'd much rather have an effective enforcement and then fix the million brainfarts the politicians and usurpers have done.

[tgw]

53 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

Well technically they are obligated to enforce laws, but as we know, enforcement here is enfarcement. I'd much rather have an effective enforcement and then fix the million brainfarts the politicians and usurpers have done.

no, they aren't.

to be enforced, laws first need an enforcement decree, and then, most also need a police directive.

[DrTuner]

37 minutes ago, tgw said:

no, they aren't.

to be enforced, laws first need an enforcement decree, and then, most also need a police directive.

Ok so there are more layers of screwups. Doesn't change the basic idea of laws is meant to be enforced and obeyed, no matter hownthick a layer of BS is inbetween.

[KhaoYai]

2 hours ago, asiaexpat said:

Thai Immigration police are obligated to enforce the law and they are doing so.

I agree that they are doing just that. However, I think they have caused the majority of the problems themselves - this law is from 1979. I don't know if they enforced it at the outset but they certainly haven't enforced it during the first 17 years of my travels to Thailand. The first time I came across it was about a year ago.

 

Had they thought it through, adapted the process to suit modern times and made the systems work, the outcry might have been far less.

Edited August 18, 2019 by KhaoYai

[pookondee]

On 8/17/2019 at 5:44 PM, KhaoYai said:

Really? You don't think a man in charge of Bangkok's immigration department should be 100% fluent in the international language?

It does not really matter what i think.

The fact remains, a lot of government employees here probably never had a need (or chance) to brush up on English.

 

Even many former Thai prime ministers had very VERY basic English.

 

This general, if he is high up, probably has zero face to face contact with foreigners anyway.

 

[KhaoYai]

6 hours ago, pookondee said:

This general, if he is high up, probably has zero face to face contact with foreigners anyway

I don't think he was born a General.  There is an international language, I'm lucky that its my mother tongue but the whole point of having an international language is so that we can all communicate. That guy will no doubt have come up through the ranks and at some point in his career, he will have had contact with foreigners. Immigration officers deal with foreign nationals every day - its an obvious part of the job yet many's the time I've had the need to talk with immigration officers, either at the airport or an office and few speak English well.  Maybe if they gave up the stupid 'face thing' and not be embarassed to say "sorry, I don't understand" they might learn faster. I'm slowly learning Thai and if there's something I don't undertstand - I ask. Its not difficult but it is, I believe, the reason that despite years and years of English language teaching, the standard of English remains poor. For an immigration officer, surely it goes with the territory?

 

 

Edited August 18, 2019 by KhaoYai