Farmers are reluctant to stop using toxic weed killers

[rooster59]

Farmers are reluctant to stop using toxic weed killers

 

 

The government’s plan to phase out three chemical weed killers, paraquat, glyphosate and chlorpyrifos, which are widely used by Thai farmers, may be easier said than done as most farmers oppose the ban because the chemicals enable higher crop yields.

 

A recent field survey, of farmers in the northern province of Phrae by Thai PBS reporters, shows that many of them are unlikely to give up the use of the weed killers while an effective alternative is not available.

 

The farmers said that, because of their large farms and shortage of labour, they need to use the weed killers both before and after cultivation to ensure they get large enough harvests to generate the incomes they need.

 

Full story: https://www.thaipbsworld.com/farmers-are-reluctant-to-stop-using-toxic-weed-killers/

 

-- © Copyright Thai PBS 2019-08-17

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[PatOngo]

Sell it and they will buy. Why let health stand in the way of profit! It's a cultural thing!

[pokerface1]

It's the same the world over. Some must die so that others can live. I bet the farmers buy organic and don't touch their own produce. 

[IsaanAussie]

Hey guys, take another look at the "jungle" those men are standing in. Now please add some more of your experience and wisedom and suggest just how they could clear 10 or 20 Rai of farm land covered in that stuff to plant their crops.

[Crossy]

1 hour ago, PatOngo said:

Sell it and they will buy.

 

Exactly.

 

Simply ban the manufacture / import and sale of the stuff. Whilst not perfect (some will always find its way in) it should push the price up above the safer alternatives.

 

[Matzzon]

2 hours ago, rooster59 said:

most farmers oppose the ban because the chemicals enable higher crop yields.

Yes, naturally. Almost like force feeding people with poison and steal their wallet when they die.

[MikeN]

14 minutes ago, IsaanAussie said:

Hey guys, take another look at the "jungle" those men are standing in. Now please add some more of your experience and wisedom and suggest just how they could clear 10 or 20 Rai of farm land covered in that stuff to plant their crops.

well, is it jungle or farmland ?

If it is virgin jungle then perhaps it should not be cleared by any means, mechanical or chemical ? and if it is actually farmland what have they been doing for the last year ? Snoozing in their hammocks, 24/365 ?

[Paul Henry]

Facts: Chlopyriphos is an organic phosphate and is an insecticide not a weedkiller. There is no conclusive evidence that glyphosate is harmfull to mammals. Infact many years of study by many countries show this ammino acid chemical is safe.Vested interest groups have made some claims with several USA courts awarding damages to cancer victims ( Two of them self proclaimed longterm smokers.) Thailand has Not carried out any trials that I am aware of to prove one way or the other on the mammalian toxicity of glyphosate.

Yes the bipyridial paraquat is highly toxic and kills many every year. Chlopyriphos has also been banned in many countries as it builds up in the fat of animals and can then be consumed by humans, few people die directly by using it according to the label.  

[IsaanAussie]

^{Still waiting for the alternatives guys. It's like I'm baying at the moon. I suppose that makes me a Bayer Fan?}

[RPCVguy]

25 minutes ago, Paul Henry said:

Facts: Chlopyriphos is an organic phosphate and is an insecticide not a weedkiller. There is no conclusive evidence that glyphosate is harmfull to mammals. Infact many years of study by many countries show this ammino acid chemical is safe.Vested interest groups have made some claims with several USA courts awarding damages to cancer victims ( Two of them self proclaimed longterm smokers.) Thailand has Not carried out any trials that I am aware of to prove one way or the other on the mammalian toxicity of glyphosate.

Yes the bipyridial paraquat is highly toxic and kills many every year. Chlopyriphos has also been banned in many countries as it builds up in the fat of animals and can then be consumed by humans, few people die directly by using it according to the label.  

Correct both on bipyridial paraquat and chlopyriphos, the latter being an insecticide which works on blocking neurotransmitters. Besides insects, it has effects on young children. Here's a medical researcher's statement: "People can be exposed to chlorpyrifos when breathing dust that drifts from nearby fields into homes and schools. Chlorpyrifos readily evaporates from leaf and soil surfaces to become airborne and, once in this gas form, can migrate. Farm workers are at risk through on-the-job exposure. After harvesting, traces of the pesticide are left as residues on fresh foods, and for this reason, I strongly advise to always peel or thoroughly wash fruits and vegetables before eating to reduce these residues." [https://www.physiciansweekly.com/why-we-should-ban-the-brain-damaging-pesticide-chlorpyrifos/]

As for the comment about glyphosate, is quite carefully worded. I wish to help people know about and explore the long term controversy that exists as to glyphosate. The debate is alive and widely separates the USA's EPA analysis from policies accepted in Europe. A "peer-reviewed article answers the question of how and why the US EPA and EFSA reached diametrically opposed conclusions to IARC about glyphosate’s genotoxicity.[1] The article shows that the EPA relied on unpublished industry studies, 99% of which found that glyphosate was not genotoxic, whereas IARC relied on published studies, 74% of which found that glyphosate was genotoxic." [https://www.gmwatch.org/en/news/archive/2019/18699-how-did-the-us-epa-and-iarc-reach-opposite-conclusions-about-glyphosate-s-genotoxicity]
Add in another concern - one I watch since we have 2 bee hives. A study in Texas links glyphosate to disrupting of gut bacteria in bees, causing another avenue for dwindling bee populations. [https://cen.acs.org/environment/pesticides/Glyphosate-disrupts-honey-bee-gut/96/web/2018/09]

Beyond its potential direct health effects on humans I look at how it functions in soils.  Glyphosate was originally patented as a chelator (bonding agent) back in 1964. It bonds to minerals like calcium, iron, magnesium & manganese and removes them from being accessible as plant nutrients. It was used to clean pipes that had mineral buildup. It is the most widely used herbicide, primarily due to the widespread cultivation of Roundup Ready GMO crops. This leads us to ask... when you spray a chelator on our farmland and our food, how much of the nutrients are chelated from the soil and the crops. Add to that the fact that glyphosate is in our food - and we have to wonder to what extent it is removing vital nutrients from us and the foods we eat?

[Tropposurfer]

I’ll have ddt with my morning glory please????

[hotchilli]

4 hours ago, IsaanAussie said:

Hey guys, take another look at the "jungle" those men are standing in. Now please add some more of your experience and wisedom and suggest just how they could clear 10 or 20 Rai of farm land covered in that stuff to plant their crops.

Round-up !

[Redline]

5 hours ago, IsaanAussie said:

Hey guys, take another look at the "jungle" those men are standing in. Now please add some more of your experience and wisedom and suggest just how they could clear 10 or 20 Rai of farm land covered in that stuff to plant their crops.

How did they build the pyramids, Stonehenge...

they burn everything anyway

they also have weed cutters with metal blades, and machete s. 

 

Edited August 17, 2019 by Redline

[GreasyFingers]

38 minutes ago, Redline said:

they also have weed cutters with metal blades, and machete s. 

You must be very fit. Offer to help them, this year, next year and every year thereafter.

[Classic Ray]

They don’t care because there are no sanctions for causing illness to their workers and they can make more profit. 

 

That’s what Governments are for, to protect the workers from business people like these, but here they are on the same side against the workers.

[SOTIRIOS]

...utter nonsense.....

[Pique Dard]

money before health, at any cost! but thai farmers aren't alone

[IsaanAussie]

I still haven't heard one viable alternative for the farmers to use. Tabloid Experts telling us about governments and business people versus workers has little to do with a subsistence rice farmer whose concern is keeping the weeds out of his once a year income source. His labour source has dried up, he is on average over 50 years old and is accumulating debt. 

It is a serious concern, I would ask those who are not or have not been involved directly in farming to please show some restraint.

 

[emptypockets]

6 hours ago, hotchilli said:

Round-up !

Which I use regularly according to the label.  Perfectly safe

[emptypockets]

3 hours ago, IsaanAussie said:

I still haven't heard one viable alternative for the farmers to use. Tabloid Experts telling us about governments and business people versus workers has little to do with a subsistence rice farmer whose concern is keeping the weeds out of his once a year income source. His labour source has dried up, he is on average over 50 years old and is accumulating debt. 

It is a serious concern, I would ask those who are not or have not been involved directly in farming to please show some restraint.

 

What a lot of people don't understand is that glysophate kills by destroying the plants ability to produce chlorophyll.... It doesn't actually poison anything let of alone soil.  Look it up.  It is not selective.  NOBODY  sprays it on food you want eat.  IT WOULD KILL THE PLANT....  NO FOOD PRODUCED.!!!!! 

A lot of what the uninformed  don't understand is the typical bait and switch trick.  Same as the  reason made with Freon .  As the patent time ran out,  the scare stories about the hole in the ozone layer surfaced and we all had to use another,  patented gas. Made by DuPont the manufacturers of Freon. 

Look up the glysophate resistant seeds and the farmers being prosecuted for it because some drifted into their land and they hadn't paid for it and cannot kill it. 

 Can't remember the name of the company... Bayer maybe possibly Do Pont.. One of the multinational not give a shit about people companies. 

You're being taken for suckers folks,  but unfortunately the inner city zombies have a lot of political clout. 

Edited August 17, 2019 by emptypockets

[wisperone]

19 minutes ago, emptypockets said:

What a lot of people don't understand is that glysophate kills by destroying the plants ability to produce chlorophyll.... It doesn't actually poison anything let of alone soil.  Look it up.  It is not selective.  NOBODY  sprays it on food you want eat.  IT WOULD KILL THE PLANT....  NO FOOD PRODUCED.!!!!! 

Nonsense...you don't know what you are talking about. Food is being GMO'd to resist it. Plants get heavily sprayed and food portion survives. Try looking up Monsanto, Soybeans, Roundup, GMO.

[inThailand]

9 hours ago, Classic Ray said:

They don’t care because there are no sanctions for causing illness to their workers and they can make more profit. 

 

That’s what Governments are for, to protect the workers from business people like these, but here they are on the same side against the workers.

and consumers

[Tayaout]

14 hours ago, IsaanAussie said:

^{Still waiting for the alternatives guys. It's like I'm baying at the moon. I suppose that makes me a Bayer Fan?}

Some of these farmer reduced glyphosate use by using no till most dont use any at all. I'm still learning and not farming on that scale. Me and my extended family will be self sufficient soon and we don't use any chemical. We use organic amendment, companion planting, crop rotation, careful observation of the environment. I'm teaching them to rebuild their soil that has been depleted by trying to fight nature. We already cut water a lot by mulching and adding organic matter. I was tempted at one point to use some organic insecticide but waited instead and beneficial insects eventually appeared because its not a "clean" and dead monoculture.

 

You should also check for Joel Salatin. I saw some of his talk on YouTube and ordered some of his books from Amazon. Jeff Lawton videos are also a good source of information. 

Edited August 17, 2019 by Tayaout

[Tayaout]

8 hours ago, IsaanAussie said:

I still haven't heard one viable alternative for the farmers to use. Tabloid Experts telling us about governments and business people versus workers has little to do with a subsistence rice farmer whose concern is keeping the weeds out of his once a year income source. His labour source has dried up, he is on average over 50 years old and is accumulating debt. 

It is a serious concern, I would ask those who are not or have not been involved directly in farming to please show some restraint.

 

https://www.downtoearth.org.in/coverage/rice-does-not-need-water-10108

 

I will test this technique on a smale scale soon. 

[Tayaout]

5 hours ago, emptypockets said:

What a lot of people don't understand is that glysophate kills by destroying the plants ability to produce chlorophyll.... It doesn't actually poison anything let of alone soil.  Look it up.  It is not selective.  NOBODY  sprays it on food you want eat.  IT WOULD KILL THE PLANT....  NO FOOD PRODUCED.!!!!! 

A lot of what the uninformed  don't understand is the typical bait and switch trick.  Same as the  reason made with Freon .  As the patent time ran out,  the scare stories about the hole in the ozone layer surfaced and we all had to use another,  patented gas. Made by DuPont the manufacturers of Freon. 

Look up the glysophate resistant seeds and the farmers being prosecuted for it because some drifted into their land and they hadn't paid for it and cannot kill it. 

 Can't remember the name of the company... Bayer maybe possibly Do Pont.. One of the multinational not give a shit about people companies. 

You're being taken for suckers folks,  but unfortunately the inner city zombies have a lot of political clout. 

Not true. They spray glyphosate right before harvest on wheat, flax and probably other too. It allows to follow a tight harvesting schedule and easily predict when the crop will be sold. Furthermore some GMO are specifically engineered to resist glyphosate "roundup ready" so they can keep the field free of unwanted weeds by spraying glyphosate on it. 

 

The company prosecuting farmers is Monsanto (now Bayer). The fact that a company can patent DNA and prosecute farmer for cross-polination is worrysome. They are trying to make everyone dependant on their infertile and chemical resistant seeds so farmers need to buy their seed and chemicals every year. This reduce genetic diversity and is very dangerous if some diseases attack these crop and there is no alternative left. We also have no idea of the long term effect of cross pollination with GMO in the wild on plants and insects. Some weeds are already glyphosate resistant because of this and some insects resistant to BT (This doesn't happen when this organic insecticide is used instead of secreted directly by GMO corn).

Edited August 17, 2019 by Tayaout

[farmerjo]

6 hours ago, wisperone said:

Nonsense...you don't know what you are talking about. Food is being GMO'd to resist it. Plants get heavily sprayed and food portion survives. Try looking up Monsanto, Soybeans, Roundup, GMO.

There are no GMO'S in Thailand as far as i'm aware.

I think a lot of people get confused by this.

Roundup in Thailand should be used 10-14 days prior to seeding a crop,then it usually takes 110-120 days for the crop to mature.

By getting rid of this product farmers will be forced to spray Later with more selective herbicides at extra cost and closer to crop maturity making the situation worse than it already is.

The alternate to not using chemicals could take a minimum of 5 years or more of little or no production to establish and i doubt the government will subsidise this period.

If people don't like the use of roundup i suggest there is the Tom and Barbara way(the good life)for there vegetable intake.

As there is more than humans to feed in this world. 

 

[drtreelove]

22 hours ago, rooster59 said:

"...while an effective alternative is not available."

Key statement.  There are alternatives, just maybe not in Thailand yet.  I'm in the US right now and using herbicidal soaps, biodegradable, organic program compatible.  I have yet to try D-limonene herbicide products, but they are popular here. There is a tremendous amount of R & D going on in biopesticides, and new less toxic products coming out all the time. 

[drtreelove]

3 hours ago, Tayaout said:

https://www.downtoearth.org.in/coverage/rice-does-not-need-water-10108

 

I will test this technique on a smale scale soon. 

SRI system is well tested and documented. A friend of mine, former member here, now in Cambodia, had an organic research and teaching farm in Chiang Mai. He had side by side comparisons and I think he posted here about it. PM me if you want to pursue a contact. 

Edited August 18, 2019 by drtreelove

[drtreelove]

20 hours ago, IsaanAussie said:

Hey guys, take another look at the "jungle" those men are standing in. Now please add some more of your experience and wisedom and suggest just how they could clear 10 or 20 Rai of farm land covered in that stuff to plant their crops.

 

[IsaanAussie]

Dr TL wouldn't it be nice if there were enough people still available to do this. But today the tractor fills the need of those who can afford to buy or contract its services. For most, lets hope your suggested alternatives turn up soon, as the normal affordable sequence for rice here is to spray herbicide then plough in broadcast seed. Following up with a pre-emergent helps, but most farms have a weed seed load that lasts five odd years, and in years where rain fails and the paddies aren't flooded, most weeds germinate and compete with the rice. Another month and many will be grazing their crop.

 

Tayaout, I have seen that video of cover cropping you posted and was impressed with the results from the low rainfall areas of the USA. There are topics of this thread covering parts of the process (such as drilling seeds) and many attempts to find a system suitable for a climate where there is no rain for six months, poor water holding and permeation rates in the soil. The monoculture cropping of rice and "usual" flooding of paddies make a stable soil web very difficult to maintain. Cover crops are the answer for improving the soil without doubt. If those same covers can contribute to farm income as well they will be adopted much quicker. One issue of difference here is tractor and implement weight, trying to drill through thick residues with small gear doesn't work.

 

We are working on it.