Opponents of 'no-deal' Brexit defeat PM Johnson, who promises an election

[7by7]

3 hours ago, nontabury said:

 

According to posts, from some remainers that I have read here on T.V. One of the big advantages of remaining in the E.u. Is that we would not have to accept more dark skinned immigrants from Africa and the East. Instead we can rely on allowing “our fellow” white Europeans in. Now if that is not racialist, I don’t know what is.

 Wrong way round.

 

Brexiteers have argued that remaining means having to accept many more African and Middle Eastern refugees.

 

Remainers like myself have shown this to be untrue as whether we do or not, and how many, is a matter for the UK government, not the EU.

[Mavideol]

and now even his own brother quit because he doesn't trust him

[7by7]

20 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

24 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Hearing that Sinn Fein may stand down and have electoral pacts with Remain parties to challenge the DUP. 

Would that mean they take their seats in Parliament? That would be interesting. I don’t like Brexit at all, but I could live with it if there is a sensible deal. 

 Sinn Fein MPs will never take their seats at Westminster as to do so they would have to take the Loyal Oath.

 

But will they stand down in Republican constituencies to allow Remain or deal favouring Republican candidates to win?

[beautifulthailand99]

1 minute ago, 7by7 said:

 Sinn Fein MPs will never take their seats at Westminster as to do so they would have to take the Loyal Oath.

 

But will they stand down in Republican constituencies to allow Remain or deal favouring Republican candidates to win?

https://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2019/09/henry-hill-scottish-nationalists-democratic-unionists-and-sinn-fein-put-themselves-on-a-war-footing.html

 

and DUP and Sinn Fein set themselves on a war footing

Meanwhile in Northern Ireland both the Democratic Unionists and Sinn Fein are on a war footing. The latter have announced that they may be willing to collaborate with other anti-Brexit parties in order to unseat DUP MPs – an alliance absent in 2017, when the Unionists made advances. Although at least once analyst thinks that both parties should be confident of holding their seats, an anti-DUP alliance could threaten seats such as Belfast South and Belfast North.

[Nigel Garvie]

53 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

A clever move. Let Boris stew. There will be an election after 31 October.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

I agree it is a good move,  though common sense should dictate it rather than cleverness. What really would be clever is to let Johnson stew for a long time. He will carry on acting like a buffoon, with an impotent minority government. His incompetence will be hard for even the Sun, Mail and Express to hide. He will steadily lose popularity, and the opposition (The majority) can choose to call an election if and when they want, by a simple vote of no confidence.

 

My preferred option would be extension to January, followed by vote of no confidence before the end of January, followed by a GNS (government of national salvation) lead by Ken Clark and or Margaret Bennet, followed by Legislation for a 2nd referendum ASAP. After the referendum when any kind of Brexit will be irreversibly legally blocked out for 20+ years, we legislate for PR. Then at a time of GNS choosing we call a GE.

 

This way Boris doesn't get the remotest chance of a look in. An early GE with a FPTF system would be completely idiotic (Which is why I fear Corbyn might call for one). It could threaten our futures, why risk it, we hold the cards, play canny for once.

A delightful side effect would be to see Boris utterly humiliated. 

[7by7]

6 hours ago, yogi100 said:

The men who lost their lives in WW2 did not do so voluntarily. They were called up and had to go. They were often punished, humiliated and even imprisoned if they refused.

 

They'd seen what had happened to the previous generation in the Great War. Only a very few volunteered to take part in the replay.

 in September to December 1939 over 750,000 British men volunteered to fight; among them my father who served in the RAF.

 

Women volunteered as well; including my mother who served in the ATS.

.

Yes, conscription was introduced in 1940, but even after that many volunteered rather than wait to be called up.

 

None of those volunteers did it to avoid imprisonment etc., they did it to fight the Nazis,

 

Your ignorant comments in the above and subsequent posts are an insult to all those who fought against Nazi and Japanese tyranny; whether they were volunteers or conscripts and whatever their nationality.

 

6 hours ago, yogi100 said:

For all the good it did Britain in the long run we should have left the Germans to fight it out with their ultimate enemy, Soviet Russia. The Soviets beat them in the end anyway.

So which would you prefer; a Europe controlled by Stalin and his heirs, or one controlled by Hitler and his?

 

Brexiteers make asinine comments about the UK being a vassal of the EU; how do you think we would have fared in either of those situations?

 

Do you really think either Stalin or Hitler would have stopped at the Channel?

 

Have you never heard of Operation Sealion?

[beautifulthailand99]

8 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

I agree it is a good move,  though common sense should dictate it rather than cleverness. What really would be clever is to let Johnson stew for a long time. He will carry on acting like a buffoon, with an impotent minority government. His incompetence will be hard for even the Sun, Mail and Express to hide. He will steadily lose popularity, and the opposition (The majority) can choose to call an election if and when they want, by a simple vote of no confidence.

 

My preferred option would be extension to January, followed by vote of no confidence before the end of January, followed by a GNS (government of national salvation) lead by Ken Clark and or Margaret Bennet, followed by Legislation for a 2nd referendum ASAP. After the referendum when any kind of Brexit will be irreversibly legally blocked out for 20+ years, we legislate for PR. Then at a time of GNS choosing we call a GE.

 

This way Boris doesn't get the remotest chance of a look in. An early GE with a FPTF system would be completely idiotic (Which is why I fear Corbyn might call for one). It could threaten our futures, why risk it, we hold the cards, play canny for once.

A delightful side effect would be to see Boris utterly humiliated. 

That's some good stuff you are smoking today Nigel let's hope some of your wishes are more than pipe dreams. The British are by instinct and nature reasonable , centrist , tolerant folk. Time we put these Brexit goblins back into the bottle. 

[david555]

The government by JRM asked in HOC. for a new election on Monday …..seems they are almost begging ? What is the secret plan for now …? 

Let them stew and wait until November I would say …. by then they are almost imploded 

[7by7]

7 hours ago, yogi100 said:

You know they do but such laws are largely ignored where casual labour is concerned especially in the building trade.

 

If an employer should be paying 50 pounds a day for a labourer and someone comes along and offers to do it for 30 which person do you think is going to get that labouring job.

 

That's what's happened in large parts of the UK since the millions of Eastern European workers arrived.

 

The last time you made this claim I provided evidence in the form of page after page of adverts for building workers, skilled and unskilled, paying far more than this; £80 plus for unskilled, way more for some trades. Which, of course, you ignored as they proved you wrong.

 

 Here's one from Indeed:

Experienced Bricklayer / Hod Carrier Required

McFarlane Brickwork

Woking

£200 a day

Experienced Bricklayers and Hod carriers Required*. Woking , Ashford , Chichester, Maidenhead, West Molesey. Hod Carriers and Supervisors Required Top Rates.

 

If all the jobs are being taken by Eastern Europeans willing to work for £30 a day, how come there are so many available jobs paying this sort of money?

 

 

[beautifulthailand99]

11 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

The last time you made this claim I provided evidence in the form of page after page of adverts for building workers, skilled and unskilled, paying far more than this; £80 plus for unskilled, way more for some trades. Which, of course, you ignored as they proved you wrong.

 

 Here's one from Indeed:

Experienced Bricklayer / Hod Carrier Required

McFarlane Brickwork

Woking

£200 a day

Experienced Bricklayers and Hod carriers Required*. Woking , Ashford , Chichester, Maidenhead, West Molesey. Hod Carriers and Supervisors Required Top Rates.

 

If all the jobs are being taken by Eastern Europeans willing to work for £30 a day, how come there are so many available jobs paying this sort of money?

 

 

Purleasee don't spoil an untruthful Brexiteer anecdotal argument with actual facts. They've have had enough of experts. Plus today they are licking their wounds and snarling at passers by - whilst we bask in this autumnal sunshine. ????

[7by7]

6 hours ago, yogi100 said:

Such laws are unenforceable.

 

If you have a woman in to do your cleaning no EU nor UK official is ever gonna turn up and tell you how much you've gotta pay her.

 

The same goes for painters, decorators and gardeners etc. I've never even heard of any such officials.

 Just because you've never heard of them doesn't mean they don't exist!

 

In the UK, enforcing compliance with the minimum wage is the responsibility of HMRC, who do so on behalf of The Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy.

 

Of course, they cannot be everywhere and many small employers do get away with paying less than the legal minimum.

 

Especially those who do not tell HMRC they are employing anyone, let alone deduct any due tax and NICs from their employees wages.

 

But as you are such a law abiding person, I'm sure that doesn't apply to you when you employ and pay your cleaner..

[bannork]

28 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

and now even his own brother quit because he doesn't trust him

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49594793

[sanemax]

6 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

The last time you made this claim I provided evidence in the form of page after page of adverts for building workers, skilled and unskilled, paying far more than this; £80 plus for unskilled, way more for some trades. Which, of course, you ignored as they proved you wrong.

 

 Here's one from Indeed:

Experienced Bricklayer / Hod Carrier Required

McFarlane Brickwork

Woking

£200 a day

Experienced Bricklayers and Hod carriers Required*. Woking , Ashford , Chichester, Maidenhead, West Molesey. Hod Carriers and Supervisors Required Top Rates.

 

If all the jobs are being taken by Eastern Europeans willing to work for £30 a day, how come there are so many available jobs paying this sort of money?

 

 

because these days , unskilled people can no longer walk onto building sites and get a skilled job . qualifications need to be shown , as well as other documents , hence why 2ages are so high (because unskilled eastern Europeans cannot get the jobs)

[Slip]

16 minutes ago, sanemax said:

because these days , unskilled people can no longer walk onto building sites and get a skilled job . qualifications need to be shown , as well as other documents , hence why 2ages are so high (because unskilled eastern Europeans cannot get the jobs)

So what you are saying is that legislation has made it impossible for what Yogi100 claims happens to actually happen.  I wonder if that was EU legislation. 

[7by7]

7 minutes ago, sanemax said:

because these days , unskilled people can no longer walk onto building sites and get a skilled job . qualifications need to be shown , as well as other documents , hence why 2ages are so high (because unskilled eastern Europeans cannot get the jobs)

 As someone who has family members who have been involved in the building trade for as long as I can remember, as both employers and employees, I can assure you that unskilled people have never been able to obtain skilled work on building site. Or if they did manage it they were given the push as soon as they were sussed; which would be on their first day!

 

No one can just walk onto a building site these days; which is why I hold a CSCS card and have my own PEP as I have to occasionally visit sites as part of my job.

 

Of course, were I seeking employment onsite I would also have to prove my right to work in the UK.

 

@yogi100 is right about one thing; employers will pay as little as they can get away with. The reason why wages are so high in the construction industry for both skilled and unskilled workers is due to the law of supply and demand: there being more vacancies than there are people to fill them. 

[cleopatra2]

1 hour ago, david555 said:

The government by JRM asked in HOC. for a new election on Monday …..seems they are almost begging ? What is the secret plan for now …? 

Let them stew and wait until November I would say …. by then they are almost imploded 

Can the same motion be put back to the house during the same session once parliament as already answered.

[sanemax]

6 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 As someone who has family members who have been involved in the building trade for as long as I can remember, as both employers and employees, I can assure you that unskilled people have never been able to obtain skilled work on building site. Or if they did manage it they were given the push as soon as they were sussed; which would be on their first day!

 

as someone who worked on building sites and have worked with un/semi skilled eastern Europeans ,l can assure you that it was indeed possible

[DannyCarlton]

1 minute ago, cleopatra2 said:

Can the same motion be put back to the house during the same session once parliament as already answered.

The only way, as far as I'm aware, the only way it can be put back to the house in the same session, is via another route. i.e. Boris calls for a vote of no confidence in himself. It would be interesting to see how he words that one! I suspect that if the bill fails on Monday, so would this vote. You'd have a situation of the government voting no confidence in themselves and the opposition voting confidence in the government. Unthinkable normally, but these are't normal times.

[sanemax]

6 hours ago, Slip said:

So what you are saying is that legislation has made it impossible for what Yogi100 claims happens to actually happen.  I wonder if that was EU legislation. 

i was talking about building site work and i was replying to your post about bricklayers .

yogi was talking about gardeners and painters .

i may be wrong , but i believe that it was A UK Gov initiative ,after numerous complaints of shoddy workmanship

[7by7]

1 minute ago, sanemax said:

as someone who worked on building sites and have worked with un/semi skilled eastern Europeans ,l can assure you that it was indeed possible

 If you are truly saying that UK employers employed unskilled workers to do skilled jobs, I can only assume those employers didn't stay in business for long!

 

[Nigel Garvie]

12 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

Can the same motion be put back to the house during the same session once parliament as already answered.

It seems that they may claim that the situation has changed once the No Deal Brexit stalling bill has passed. Most sane people in the country realize the obvious, that Boris can't be trusted not to move the date. Why should the MPs who voted no last time (Particularly those Tories subject to whip withdrawal, and bullying) change their minds.

Clearly Boris and his handler are getting DESPERATE. It's a pleasure to witness.

[7by7]

1 minute ago, sanemax said:

i was talking about building site work and i was replying to your post about bricklayers .

yogi was talking about gardeners and painters .

i may be wrong , but i believe that it was A UK Gov initiative ,after numerous complaints of shoddy workmanship

My post about bricklayers, actually!

 

I was replying to a post by @yogi100 about the building trade. 

 

Skills shortages in the construction industry are not new; as this 2008 report from the CIOB shows.

[Slip]

 

 

4 minutes ago, sanemax said:

i was talking about building site work and i was replying to your post about bricklayers .

yogi was talking about gardeners and painters .

i may be wrong , but i believe that it was A UK Gov initiative ,after numerous complaints of shoddy workmanship

 You need to follow the thread more attentively. 

 

a) I made no post about bricklayers.

 

b) The post that you made must be referring to is the post made by seven 7s, which was in response to this one from Yogi which specifically mentions labourers rather than painters or gardeners.

8 hours ago, yogi100 said:

You know they do but such laws are largely ignored where casual labour is concerned especially in the building trade.

 

If an employer should be paying 50 pounds a day for a labourer and someone comes along and offers to do it for 30 which person do you think is going to get that labouring job.

 

That's what's happened in large parts of the UK since the millions of Eastern European workers arrived.

[sanemax]

6 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 If you are truly saying that UK employers employed unskilled workers to do skilled jobs, I can only assume those employers didn't stay in business for long!

 

well ,theres skilled as in doing 4 year apprenticeship in the uk and then there skilled as in picking it as you go along in krakow 

[DannyCarlton]

11 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 If you are truly saying that UK employers employed unskilled workers to do skilled jobs, I can only assume those employers didn't stay in business for long!

 

I think that the only situations that this arises in are small building firms doing extensions, loft conversions et al on single dwellings for private individuals/ small time property developers. In my area, I know several such companies and the deals are done, in the pub, after work and often for cash. In my area, there are no immigrants picking up this kind of work and I imagine that this practice primarily occurs inside the M25.

[sanemax]

6 hours ago, 7by7 said:

My post about bricklayers, actually!

 

I was replying to a post by @yogi100 about the building trade. 

 

Skills shortages in the construction industry are not new; as this 2008 report from the CIOB shows.

that was just before the big downturn in 2009 , when construction jobs were scarce

[david555]

54 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

Can the same motion be put back to the house during the same session once parliament as already answered.

Claiming some different circumstances or changes 

[david555]

48 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

The only way, as far as I'm aware, the only way it can be put back to the house in the same session, is via another route. i.e. Boris calls for a vote of no confidence in himself. It would be interesting to see how he words that one! I suspect that if the bill fails on Monday, so would this vote. You'd have a situation of the government voting no confidence in themselves and the opposition voting confidence in the government. Unthinkable normally, but these are't normal times.

JRM claims different circumstances or changes (very politic explanation he gave ….) in H.O.C. 

[david555]

49 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

It seems that they may claim that the situation has changed once the No Deal Brexit stalling bill has passed. Most sane people in the country realize the obvious, that Boris can't be trusted not to move the date. Why should the MPs who voted no last time (Particularly those Tories subject to whip withdrawal, and bullying) change their minds.

Clearly Boris and his handler are getting DESPERATE. It's a pleasure to witness.

Maybe promising to restore those banned rebels …..?

[david555]

Boris Johnson 'lying' about progress being made in Brexit talks, says senior MEP

These are from the BBC’s Damian Grammaticas. @ph_lamberts is Philippe Lamberts, co-president of the Greens/European Free Alliance group in the European parliament and a member of the parliament’s Brexit steering group.