Interpretation of the police order for extension of stay

[geoffbezoz]

Prior to my visit last week to Udon Thani Immigration I downloaded a copy of the recent police order dated 21st December 2018, together with the English translation from the Immigration depts. website.

 

I was wanting to extend my stay based on being married to a Thai utilising the income method which in 2.18 of that police notice states a minimum monthly average of 40,000 baht.  So as I receive a UK state pension every 4 weeks and then consequently remitted to my Thai bank, and also in receipt of two private pensions paid quarterly , again on receipt submitted to my Thai bank, I thought all would be well as all these transfers were included on the bank statement provided.

 

How wrong could I be.  Udon Immigration refused to accept that my combined pensions were when averaged amounting to well over 40 k per month and they were insistant that they do not accept an average income, only that a minimum 40 k must be shown for every month.  Even when speaking to the Senior IO there and then subsequently a further officer based in Khon Kaen whom they contacted on my behalf, they were adamant that they would not accept "averaged" figures and hence my application for an extension was declined.

 

So this highlights that either a)  The IO can not grasp what average means, which I doubt to be the case,  b) They are not following the guidelines, or perhaps c) The literal English translation posted by them is incorrect, a point my wife seems to suggest based on her own interpretation of the Thai language police order.

 

Have others members encountered similar issues either in Udon Thani or elsewhere specifically relating to an extension based on marriage utilising the monthly income method ?

 

 

590231773_Amendmenttopoliceorder138-2557(Eng).pdf

Edited September 10, 2019 by geoffbezoz

[lopburi3]

Yes it requires the amount or more be deposited monthly if not using Embassy letter - there is no dividing an annual average by 12 option.  

[Matzzon]

I was under the belief that the combined method could only be used if it regards an extenison based on retirement and not for extension based on marriage or child dependant.

[stevenl]

1 minute ago, Matzzon said:

I was under the belief that the combined method could only be used if it regards an extenison based on retirement and not for extension based on marriage or child dependant.

Combination method is not applicable or even mentioned here.

[ubonjoe]

17 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

Yes it requires the amount or more be deposited monthly if not using Embassy letter - there is no dividing an annual average by 12 option.  

An average is mentioned in the police orders in clause 2.18. It is the same in the amended order done in December.

 

Just another case of a immigration office not following what is actually written in the police orders.

 

[Matzzon]

14 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Combination method is not applicable or even mentioned here.

Right, sorry! Read wrong, saw it when I read again. He combined 2 pensions. My bad. ???? 

[mtls2005]

39 minutes ago, geoffbezoz said:

utilising the income method which in 2.18 of that police notice states a minimum monthly average of 40,000 baht.

 

I think this simply refers to a minimum of 40,000 each month, which could be made up of one or more transfers in the same month. As others have highlighted, there is no quarterly/semi-annual/annual averaging, at least as far as the rules are currently written/understood/implemented. Believe this confusing requirement is a result of the translation from Thai.

 

 

39 minutes ago, geoffbezoz said:

So as I receive a UK state pension every 4 weeks and then consequently remitted to my Thai bank, and also in receipt of two private pensions paid quarterly , again on receipt submitted to my Thai bank, I thought all would be well as all these transfers were included on the bank statement provided.

 

In this case you would be better advised to have payments directed to an acount in the U.K., and then make one, single qualifying transfer each month. 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2019 by mtls2005

[ubonjoe]

10 minutes ago, mtls2005 said:

I think this simply refers to a minimum of 40,000 each month, which could be made up of one or more transfers in the same month. As others have highlighted, there is no quarterly/semi-annual/annual averaging, at least as far as the rules are currently written/understood/implemented. Believe this confusing requirement is a result of the translation from Thai.

It is certainly not a translation error.

It states the same in the Thai version of clause 2.18 of the police orders going back as far as 2008 or before.

[mtls2005]

1 minute ago, ubonjoe said:

It is certainly not a translation error.

 

Please note that I did not call it an "error" so feel free to refrain from mis-attributions. Thank you in advance.

 

I simply said that any confusion may (as in "believe") be a result of translation.

 

I think ( my opinion) that the use of the word "average" is meant to mean that, in fact, the total amount of any month's multiple transfers has to equal or exceed 40,000. 

 

 

 

 

[jacko45k]

21 minutes ago, mtls2005 said:

I think ( my opinion) that the use of the word "average" is meant to mean that, in fact, the total amount of any month's multiple transfers has to equal or exceed 40,000. 

That is not the meaning of average.... that would be total of course.

[ubonjoe]

21 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

That is not the meaning of average.... that would be total of course.

In this case it meant to be a annual income of at least 480k baht which is 40k baht when divided by 12 to get a monthly average.

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, mtls2005 said:

Please note that I did not call it an "error" so feel free to refrain from mis-attributions. Thank you in advance.

 

I simply said that any confusion may (as in "believe") be a result of translation.

Ah, "mis-attributions" -- so how about 'result of MIS-translation?' Sounds like an error to me (apologies if you're not an original English -- to include colonial version -- speaker).

[Suradit69]

23 hours ago, mtls2005 said:

e of the word "average" is meant to mean that, in fact, the total amount of any month's multiple transfers has to equal or exceed 40,000. 

That would be a peculiar interpretation of "average."  I can't think of any other use of average, mathematical or colloquial, that means total amount.

[AAArdvark]

It would require the IO to add all and then divide by 12.

[Momofarang]

You can't go against that. Thais just don't have the Maths to grasp what an average means.

BTW Thais are not the only ones, at Garmin they have developers (of connect.garmin[dotcom]) who think that the average speed of all activities is the average of average speeds. When, of course it should be (total distance/total/time).

Edited September 11, 2019 by Momofarang

[david555]

49 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

That would be a peculiar interpretation of "average."  I can't think of any other use of average, mathematical or colloquial, that means total amount.

They talk in order about average by month …. not by year, so several transfers in a month could / should be a total of 40 000 not counted over a years period …. that is the different interpretation …..not like WE would like to see / calculate it

[wwest5829]

On 9/10/2019 at 10:51 AM, ubonjoe said:

An average is mentioned in the police orders in clause 2.18. It is the same in the amended order done in December.

 

Just another case of a immigration office not following what is actually written in the police orders.

 

Awaiting someone with enough face to go to Thai Court asking for correct enforcement nationally of one standard.

[dabhand]

14 minutes ago, david555 said:

They talk in order about average by month …. not by year, so several transfers in a month could / should be a total of 40 000 not counted over a years period …. that is the different interpretation …..not like WE would like to see / calculate it

This would also mean that any irregular transfers (as an extreme -one month with Bt500k) would not be acceptable to an IO, even though the average would be greater than Bt40k/month.

 

[jacko45k]

1 hour ago, david555 said:

They talk in order about average by month …. not by year, so several transfers in a month could / should be a total of 40 000 not counted over a years period …. that is the different interpretation …..not like WE would like to see / calculate it

It actually states throughout the year.....an average each month. 

I believe that they want to see something each month, rather than two or three large transfers during the year. 

Edited September 11, 2019 by jacko45k

[david555]

3 minutes ago, dabhand said:

This would also mean that any irregular transfers (as an extreme -one month with Bt500k) would not be acceptable to an IO, even though the average would be greater than Bt40k/month.

 

yes... if your nitpicking would be supported , but my guess is that that exceptional 500K would not be refused ….but not counted for the following month, or not counted for a yearly average , they like to see a steady income of NOT LESS 40K A MONTH  

 

BTW in the 40k income method , that funny proposal of your 500K would be 100K over the requested amount for a married to Thai on bank.....???? which is more simple and secured for mis-interpretation , same as the 800k on bank way ...

[chilly07]

The only reasonable interpretation of this is that TI want to see at least 40k going into a Thai bank account every month. Any other interpretation risks a refusal as there are many different ways of averaging such as mean median or mode

[john terry1001]

1 hour ago, david555 said:

They talk in order about average by month …. not by year, so several transfers in a month could / should be a total of 40 000 not counted over a years period …. that is the different interpretation …..not like WE would like to see / calculate it

Clause 2.18 actually says:

 

Throughout the year an average income is not less than 40k baht monthly

 

17 minutes ago, david555 said:

they like to see a steady income of NOT LESS 40K A MONTH  

Can you please show where 'they like to see a steady income' is written in the Police Order

 

For a retirement extension, a minimum of 65k baht must be deposited in a Thai bank every month, however, with a marriage extension that wording has been changed to 'Throughout the year an average income...........' .If it meant must....every month They would simply have used the same wording for both extensions and just added the work income options for the marriage option.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 11, 2019 by john terry1001

[david555]

39 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

It actually states throughout the year.....an average each month. 

I believe that want to see something each month, rather than two or three large transfers during the year. 

it states average BY MONTH , they like to see a steady monthly income of at least (in that case ) of 40K.

I know we like to pull the bedsheet's over to our side , especially when we start failing the requirement 's because our failing GBP & € who are both " brexiteared to pieces "???? , but we lye in their bed so their rules ….. something like " taking keeping control ….. sounds  familiar ...isn't …. well the Thais do it all the time  

Edited September 11, 2019 by david555

[david555]

2 minutes ago, john terry1001 said:

Clause 2.18 actually says:

 

Throughout the year an average income is not less than 40k baht monthly

 

Can you please show where 'they like to see a steady income' is written in the Police Order

 

For a retirement extension, a minimum of 65k baht must be deposited in a Thai bank every month, however, with a marriage extension that wording has been changed to 'Throughout the year an average income...........' .If it meant must....every month They would simply have used the same wording for both extensions and just added the work income options for the marriage option.

 

 

 

Throughout a year (meaning during that year ) an average income not less than 40 000baht monthly (each month...) 

I know it is same but different approach reading ….. they read it THAT way ….. if we like or not , their rule

[john terry1001]

7 minutes ago, david555 said:

Throughout a year (meaning during that year ) an average income not less than 40 000baht monthly (each month...) 

I know it is same but different approach reading ….. they read it THAT way ….. if we like or not , their rule

That's just an interpretation you choose to use.

 

During the year would refer to just one (or more) points in a year.

 

Throughout the year means covering the whole of the year. 

 

Throughout the year an average 40K BAHT Monthly means exactly that. If they meant each (and every) month that's what they would have said, but they didn't did they. That wording in the retirement version was changed for the marriage/dependent version. Ask yourself why they made the change.

 

you are repeatedly changing the wording and meaning to read what you want it to say, not what it actually says.

[jacko45k]

13 minutes ago, david555 said:

it states average BY MONTH , they like to see a steady monthly income of at least (in that case ) of 40K.

I know we like to pull the bedsheet s over to our side , especially when we start failing the requirement 's because our failing GBP & € who are both " brexiteared to pieces "???? , but we lye in their bed so their rules ….. something like " taking keeping control ….. sounds  familiar ...isn't …. well the Thais do it all the time  

It actually states:-

In the case of marriage to a Thai woman, the alien husband must earn an average annual income of no less than Baht 40,000 per month or must have no less than Baht 400,000 in a bank account in Thailand for the past two months to cover expenses for one year.

Per month, not by month.

[david555]

6 minutes ago, john terry1001 said:

That's just an interpretation you choose to use.

 

During the year would refer to just one (or more) points in a year.

 

Throughout the year means covering the whole of the year. 

 

Throughout the year an average 40K BAHT Monthly means exactly that. If they meant each (and every) month that's what they would have said, but they didn't did they. That wording in the retirement version was changed for the marriage/dependent version. Ask yourself why they made the change.

 

you are repeatedly changing the wording and meaning to read what you want it to say, not what it actually says.

"That's just an interpretation you choose to use"

 

Not my choice , but I always try to understand an adversary explanation….and that is the way that I.O. read it and his superior …. so what you go to do about it ….. invade Thailand with a mercenary group? … ridiculous to try to force your interpretation on them , how much I understand that it would be more easy for us all to have a wild card to see  their laws in our favor …. 

 

We just have to live with it  and follow it ….period.

[david555]

11 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

It actually states:-

In the case of marriage to a Thai woman, the alien husband must earn an average annual income of no less than Baht 40,000 per month or must have no less than Baht 400,000 in a bank account in Thailand for the past two months to cover expenses for one year.

Per month, not by month.

O.K. I give up …. you win  I.O. loose …..ext. granted now ? with a hundred wai from I.O. 

 

Understand my point now ?

[jacko45k]

2 minutes ago, david555 said:

We just have to live with it  and follow it ….period.

Conform in such a way that any ambiguity is irrelevant. Twelve transfers of 40,001 baht, one a month.

[david555]

15 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Conform in such a way that any ambiguity is irrelevant. Twelve transfers of 40,001 baht, one a month.

let me know the result when telling that to I.O.   

I even don't know why some are  trying to convince the I.O.from their point of view ….. is like swimming upstream on a Colorado river 

Edited September 11, 2019 by david555