The getting old curse – How are you dealing with it?

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Didnt you get a bang last night ?

You seem sexually aroused again 

I now live in a western country. Ergo the days of lovely young women and I are but a dream, a dream within a dream.

 

Anne Sexton wrote this

 

Watch out for love
(unless it is true,
and every part of you says yes including the toes) ,
it will wrap you up like a mummy,
and your scream won't be heard
and none of your running will end.

 

[TKDfella]

9 hours ago, khunPer said:

Thanks for your reply.

 

It's individual, we are all different.

 

However, I gave up smoking some years ago – I didn't smoke much, so easy to give up, whilst difficult to smoke at most places – and I normally never drink (alcohol) when out in the nightlife, I'm always a sober driver when heading back home. I don't go to bars, I'm out for dancing in clubs (discos), and occasionally a beach party; including Full Moon Party. My dancing is both fun and workout...????

 

Many of us aliens with Thai partner live a risky life. If someone more handsome and more rich shows up, we might be deselected.

 

I think, that in general many women look out for better hunters/providers, it seems to be deep in the human genes from ancient ages. Just like most men look out for young attractive females for breeding – also deep in the genes – but our various culture stop most of us from anything more than looking. Thai ladies might however be little more than looking, known as being number one in World for infidelity.

 

I agree in that age gap can be a problem, and also a culture gap can be a problem; combined they might generate serious problems.

 

And on top of gaps is a man's provider potential, which again might be of more importance in Thailand, than in a Western country where marriage of convenience is something that mainly belong to the past, though many Western women are still on the look for a billionaire. Thai culture is in many ways more old-fashioned, and with furthermore the obligation for the younger, often the girls, to support the elder in the family, a partnership of convenience makes sense. The middle-aged or elder man – and that's common among Thais that it's best if the man is older, even double as old – is often a better financial provider, and might therefore be selected as we no longer hunt for food, but use money instead. However the human 1.0 hardware-genes might still be attracted by the strong young handsome hunter. It's actually scientific facts from some fairly recently published studies.

 

It all fits quite well with men that are trying to keep themselves fit – one way or the other – in older age, and the saying: "A man is only as old as the woman he feels"...????

Nice reply. Your first line is so correct...I have said the same on other threads (about why we stay in Thailand etc.). Men and women are different too, and I don't just mean sexual organs. Certainly your comment on genes is true.

However, getting back to the OP, one's wife can also be very important in man's life. Now, I don't know what the statistics are, but I think it is true to say that men feel the decline with aging more than women do. One quite often hears a chap say that 'I've never been the same since [such & such] happened'; or complain that 'Why can't I do this [whatever] like I used to do?' and so on. If a chap is living alone then motivation can be a problem but a thoughtful wife can can often be supportive and provide a source of motivation.

I have always been self motivated and while that's a plus when living alone it can be problem in a relationship. A woman likes to think she has been a help to her husband and can derive comfort from that. When a chap is self motivated the wife can sometimes alienated.

I won't deny that a younger woman can add zest and those chaps that benefit from that have my vote, as they say. Thanks for the chat.

[Tony125]

Secrets To Aging Gracefully

https://healthprep.com/aging/secrets-to-aging-gracefully/?utm_source=pushengage&utm_campaign=secrets-to-aging-gracefully&utm_medium=push

 

 

[unblocktheplanet]

I went to the ear clinic at Chula Hospital last week. When I finished & was about to board the MRT, I saw a foreigner with a cane looking at the station map so I asked if I could help.

 

We struck up a conversation. He's 87, lives on Soi 33, wife has passed away, now looked after by his Thai housekeeper.

 

He told me he'd never expected to live so long but his biggest problem? Forgetting his cane places!

 

The Buddha said it all. Quite your whining. We're all in the same (sinking) boat.

[Tony125]

On 11/1/2019 at 5:31 AM, giddyup said:

To be honest, I, and probably others as well, am sick of your preaching. If you had bothered to follow the conversation you would have seen I was responding to someone who was advocating life at any price, even bedridden, and I said that wasn't a price I would be prepared to pay, but keep plugging your endless cure-alls for a better and healthier life by all means. BTW, there must be some pics of some octogenarian running marathons that you haven't posted yet?

Rather than post an octogenarian running a marathon I upped the report to show a 103 year old from my hometown of Boston MA USA

 

103 Year Old Shares Secrets to long life

https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/103-year-old-shares-secrets-to-long-life/vi-BBWPFyn

 

I don't fault you on saying you wouldn't want to live bedridden and unable to function , my point is why not try to do some things to keep from getting that way?  When you say  Ï can't do this or this won't work it is a self-fulfilling prophecy.   

 --- Self-fulfilling prophecy refers to the socio-psychological phenomenon of someone "predicting" or expecting something, and this “prediction” or expectation comes true simply because one believes it will, and their resulting behaviors align to fulfil those beliefs. This suggests peoples' beliefs influence their actions

 

I'm sure you have seen reports on drug tests where some are given drugs others a plecebo = sugar pill. Yet some of those given the sugar pill will be cured because they believe they are being given a real drug. The mind and belief is a powerfull waepon. I simply point to others older than you who thru exercise/suppliments and a positive attitude have made drastic improvements in their  health/lives. Simon23 and I have said we repaired damaged rotator cuffs thru proper exercise/nutrion and you could as wel but if you don't have the motovation or positive attitude to try and change then there won't be change.

 

Whatever hope things work out for you and ThaiBeachLover

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tony125]

On 11/11/2019 at 11:13 PM, Tony125 said:

Secrets To Aging Gracefully

https://healthprep.com/aging/secrets-to-aging-gracefully/?utm_source=pushengage&utm_campaign=secrets-to-aging-gracefully&utm_medium=push

 

 

  Walking exercise for 75 years +

https://healthyliving.azcentral.com/exercise-age-75-much-walking-17840.html

[MeePeeMai]

Who's getting old?

 

Since I retired, I not only started eating less and exercising more, but I quit eating dairy products, breads, grains, sweets, processed foods, meat and animal products, coffee and soda.  I also do regular periods of intermittent fasting (detox) and eat mostly fresh fruit.  My B.P. is normal now (no more meds), I have lost over 40 pounds and I have never felt better. 

 

Some might say it sounds like a boring life but it feels great to be healthier than I have been in many years, plus I no longer have those nagging knee, hip and lower back pains.  I don't get sick with colds or flu anymore (no excess mucous), nor do I have sleep apnea or snore anymore.  My arthritis has all but disappeared in my joints and I feel like I'm in my mid 30's now (I'm actually close to 59).

 

Was it worth it giving up on all the junk food, refined sugar beer, fried and salty foods that I was addicted to for my entire life?  Without a doubt, it was the best thing I have done for myself (since retiring and ridding myself of all the stress that comes with working 9-5 and putting up with all the BS that came with it).

 

Was it easy in the beginning?  No it was not, but I was growing sicker and more unhealthy by the day and my body was letting me know that I needed to change my lifestyle or suffer the consequences (which would mean more pain and more ailments and diseases)... so I decided to try it for a while and see how I felt.

 

It was a gradual adaptation that started by first giving up on all dairy products (I loved my cheeses, pizza, lasagna, yogurt, omlets, eggs, butter etc.) to get rid of the excess mucous that was causing me a lot of trouble with constant colds, sinus problems, upper respiratory infections, sleep apnea and snoring etc.  This was pretty easy and I felt a positive result in a very short time.

 

The next thing I did was give up all breads, pastries, beans, grains, beer, rice and everything else that caused me bloating and other health problems due to the gluten, yeast, fungus etc.  This was more difficult but I got over it pretty quick and never looked back.  I also lost a lot of weight real quick which helped.

 

Then came the meats, fried foods and the rest.  That was a chore because I loved my steak, hamburgers, fish, chicken and seafood (I never liked pork).  It was made easier for me when I moved to Isaan since beef is really hard to find here (it's mostly pork everywhere) and the seafood and fish is not the same quality as what I had in Hawaii (oh how I miss fresh mahi mahi though).  I got over it pretty quick, same as everything else.

 

I lucked out though because I have always liked fresh fruit and there is a lot of good quality fruit here in Thailand (better than in Hawaii in my opinion).  In addition to the issues I mentioned above (which have been resolved) I also no longer suffer from stomach pains, indigestion, acid reflux, sore throats, gas, bloating, constipation, hard stools, migraine headaches, kidney stones, kidney pain, receding gums and other symptoms (not mentioned).

 

How do I maintain this?  Simple - I no longer cheat.  Telling myself that I'm just going to eat this one slice of pizza or slide into a Burger King at the airport for a meal only leads back into the same old rut.  I tried and I slipped up many times. I found it much harder to keep cheating and eating the foods that I missed once in a while rather than just never giving in and sticking to my diet and lifestyle.  If I get tired of eating fruit I just fast for a few days and then the fruit tastes wonderful and how happy I am to be on it again.  I also drink lots of fresh coconut water (from fresh green coconuts).  I don't really drink much water anymore as I stay well hydrated from the fruits and coconut water (and I don't like the taste of drinking from a plastic bottle).

 

Am I going to live like this forever?  I don't know.  It suits me well now and I feel terrible whenever I eat something that I know I shouldn't.  Who knows though, maybe one day I will feel good enough to cheat on occasion but I know for certain that I will NEVER go back to my old eating habits.  That is for sure.

 

If you made it through this long post I give you credit.  It's not for everyone but don't knock it until you try it and for those of you who are suffering from all kinds of aches and pains and horrible symptoms, well maybe you should eliminate some of the foods that are causing your problems in the first place and you too will feel the difference.  Getting old is merely enduring more and more aches and pains and diseases caused mainly by the food you eat and if you smoke and/or drink heavily then this will also be a contributing factor. 

 

Cheers!

 

 

[EVENKEEL]

2 hours ago, MeePeeMai said:

Who's getting old?

 

Since I retired, I not only started eating less and exercising more, but I quit eating dairy products, breads, grains, sweets, processed foods, meat and animal products, coffee and soda.  I also do regular periods of intermittent fasting (detox) and eat mostly fresh fruit.  My B.P. is normal now (no more meds), I have lost over 40 pounds and I have never felt better. 

 

Some might say it sounds like a boring life but it feels great to be healthier than I have been in many years, plus I no longer have those nagging knee, hip and lower back pains.  I don't get sick with colds or flu anymore (no excess mucous), nor do I have sleep apnea or snore anymore.  My arthritis has all but disappeared in my joints and I feel like I'm in my mid 30's now (I'm actually close to 59).

 

Was it worth it giving up on all the junk food, refined sugar beer, fried and salty foods that I was addicted to for my entire life?  Without a doubt, it was the best thing I have done for myself (since retiring and ridding myself of all the stress that comes with working 9-5 and putting up with all the BS that came with it).

 

Was it easy in the beginning?  No it was not, but I was growing sicker and more unhealthy by the day and my body was letting me know that I needed to change my lifestyle or suffer the consequences (which would mean more pain and more ailments and diseases)... so I decided to try it for a while and see how I felt.

 

It was a gradual adaptation that started by first giving up on all dairy products (I loved my cheeses, pizza, lasagna, yogurt, omlets, eggs, butter etc.) to get rid of the excess mucous that was causing me a lot of trouble with constant colds, sinus problems, upper respiratory infections, sleep apnea and snoring etc.  This was pretty easy and I felt a positive result in a very short time.

 

The next thing I did was give up all breads, pastries, beans, grains, beer, rice and everything else that caused me bloating and other health problems due to the gluten, yeast, fungus etc.  This was more difficult but I got over it pretty quick and never looked back.  I also lost a lot of weight real quick which helped.

 

Then came the meats, fried foods and the rest.  That was a chore because I loved my steak, hamburgers, fish, chicken and seafood (I never liked pork).  It was made easier for me when I moved to Isaan since beef is really hard to find here (it's mostly pork everywhere) and the seafood and fish is not the same quality as what I had in Hawaii (oh how I miss fresh mahi mahi though).  I got over it pretty quick, same as everything else.

 

I lucked out though because I have always liked fresh fruit and there is a lot of good quality fruit here in Thailand (better than in Hawaii in my opinion).  In addition to the issues I mentioned above (which have been resolved) I also no longer suffer from stomach pains, indigestion, acid reflux, sore throats, gas, bloating, constipation, hard stools, migraine headaches, kidney stones, kidney pain, receding gums and other symptoms (not mentioned).

 

How do I maintain this?  Simple - I no longer cheat.  Telling myself that I'm just going to eat this one slice of pizza or slide into a Burger King at the airport for a meal only leads back into the same old rut.  I tried and I slipped up many times. I found it much harder to keep cheating and eating the foods that I missed once in a while rather than just never giving in and sticking to my diet and lifestyle.  If I get tired of eating fruit I just fast for a few days and then the fruit tastes wonderful and how happy I am to be on it again.  I also drink lots of fresh coconut water (from fresh green coconuts).  I don't really drink much water anymore as I stay well hydrated from the fruits and coconut water (and I don't like the taste of drinking from a plastic bottle).

 

Am I going to live like this forever?  I don't know.  It suits me well now and I feel terrible whenever I eat something that I know I shouldn't.  Who knows though, maybe one day I will feel good enough to cheat on occasion but I know for certain that I will NEVER go back to my old eating habits.  That is for sure.

 

If you made it through this long post I give you credit.  It's not for everyone but don't knock it until you try it and for those of you who are suffering from all kinds of aches and pains and horrible symptoms, well maybe you should eliminate some of the foods that are causing your problems in the first place and you too will feel the difference.  Getting old is merely enduring more and more aches and pains and diseases caused mainly by the food you eat and if you smoke and/or drink heavily then this will also be a contributing factor. 

 

Cheers!

 

 

I see all you gave up, is there anything left besides water. I'm just curious what your daily eating consists of.

[MeePeeMai]

9 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

I see all you gave up, is there anything left besides water. I'm just curious what your daily eating consists of.

Fruits and berries of all kinds, melons, fruit juices, dates and smoothies for the time being.  I never liked vegetables and I just don't eat them.  This is the key to ridding your body of all the inflammation that causes pain in the joints etc.  It's like turning back the clock and reversing the damage done from decades of eating whatever I wanted / whenever I wanted.  Out goes everything the body does not want and cannot use such as excess fat, toxic wastes, excess water and fluids, parasites, excess mucous and mucoid plaque (google image that one if you dare).

 

The next question would be what about protein.... right?   I'll start with a question for you guys before I answer that one. 

 

Where do horses (think million dollar quarter race horses), cows, brahma bulls, gorillas, orangutans, giraffes, elephants, buffalo, hippos, elk, moose etc. get their protein from?  They are quite strong and most quite muscular are they not?  They NEVER eat any meat or any animal products (other than mother's milk for a short time right after birth).  Fruits and vegetable (grasses, grains and greens), that's where they get their protein from.

 

What is protein?  Simply broken down (to be able to be utilized by our bodies) they are amino acids.  Meat and animal proteins are hard for our bodies to digest and the animal proteins take a long time and use a lot of energy to break down into the amino acids that our bodies can use (vs the amino acids found in fruits and vegetables which are much easier and take less energy to to break down and utilize for us).

 

I know it goes against everything that we have been taught since birth but think about it, the beef industry (American Cattleman's Association and the like), the dairy industry and the poultry industries are big business (run by huge wealthy corporations) which all relay on keeping us hooked on animal products to survive and thrive.  The AMA and the FDA as well as the Health care industry and the Big Pharma corps are also keen on promoting meat and dairy products to their customers and patients to keep them on rx meds and keep the steady cash flow going via doctor's and hospital visits and ongoing care etc. Is there any wonder as to why doctors are recommending high protein diets to people who have compromised kidney function and the like?

 

The American Cancer Society recommended fruits and vegetables (back in the 80's) to reduce your risk of getting cancer.  They have since abandoned that recommendation and are now recommending high protein/low carb diets.  I have already had several bouts of skin cancer and I don't plan on going there again.  I was on the Atkins diet (ketogenic high protein/low carb) off and on for more than a decade and it ruined me (and my health).

 

Why is it that kidney failure, cancer, strokes, heart attacks and the like are on the rise in most cultures (as is obesity and diabetes) in the last 50 years or so?  Diet.  What you put into your mouth everyday.  Americans ate less meat, less dairy, less processed foods, fast food and junk food in my parents and grand parents era.  It just wasn't as widely available and was more expensive back then (for them).  The milk and dairy products back then were not pasturized either.  Everything dairy was raw and unpasturized back then.  The meats were cleaner with less (or zero) antibiotics and hormones, and the food  for the animals was cleaner and better than it is now (think about all the GMO corn and soy that they eat now).

 

I know that most of you reading this will laugh and raise your BS flags and that's fine. 

 

I'm only posting this to share my own personal experience so that those who are suffering (like I was just a year or so ago) have some hope and can get relief just by changing what they put into their bodies vs going to the medical doctors who only treat the symptoms with prescription drugs (which do not cure anything, they just make things worse in the long run... think about the side effects and eventual need for stronger meds and different meds for their side effects and the ever increasing symptoms and pains that you will endure (not to mention kidney failure and dialysis).

 

Would I have done this if I had no problems?  No.  Would I rather have just kept on eating the foods that I love and was addicted to?  Yes, definitely. Do I miss eating out with my wife and friends and having a steak, fried chicken or a pizza every day?  Yes, but I have decided that my long term health and happiness is more valuable than the pleasures of the foods that I grew up on which I was only able to really enjoy while I was eating them. I am also sick of the ever increasing pain and inflammation that was taking over my whole life.  I couldn't even get a good nights sleep before because I was in so much pain.  Now I sleep 10 hours a day, like a baby.

 

I also hate going to the doctors and hospitals and I wish to avoid all that in my final years here before my death.  Most will choose to just continue on as they have been for most (or all) of their life and that's perfectly okay.  Everybody has to choose their own road or path to take and though I never, ever considered that I would ever give up the foods that I loved (and always laughed at vegans and raw food folks because "only hippies think like that"), I am glad I did.  My only regret is that I didn't do it years ago (but it is never too late).

 

Now I have assumed the role of "the idiot who gave up on everything but fruit and water" and will be laughed at by many but I'm fine with that.  My mind is clear, my vision has improved, my body and all my organs are getting healthier by the day and I feel great so it is all worth it to me. 

 

Carry on friends!

 

 

[Don Mega]

Every year I get older is a year younger I need my rentals......Still have a few years left before they get to 18 !!

[Isaanbiker]

“Anyone who keeps the ability to see beauty never grows old.” Franz Kaffka.

 

I just put 30 odd years in my bank account and feel much younger now. 

Edited November 24, 2019 by Isaanbiker

[Tony125]

12 hours ago, MeePeeMai said:

Fruits and berries of all kinds, melons, fruit juices, dates and smoothies for the time being.  I never liked vegetables and I just don't eat them.  This is the key to ridding your body of all the inflammation that causes pain in the joints etc.  It's like turning back the clock and reversing the damage done from decades of eating whatever I wanted / whenever I wanted.  Out goes everything the body does not want and cannot use such as excess fat, toxic wastes, excess water and fluids, parasites, excess mucous and mucoid plaque (google image that one if you dare).

 

The next question would be what about protein.... right?   I'll start with a question for you guys before I answer that one. 

 

Where do horses (think million dollar quarter race horses), cows, brahma bulls, gorillas, orangutans, giraffes, elephants, buffalo, hippos, elk, moose etc. get their protein from?  They are quite strong and most quite muscular are they not?  They NEVER eat any meat or any animal products (other than mother's milk for a short time right after birth).  Fruits and vegetable (grasses, grains and greens), that's where they get their protein from.

 

What is protein?  Simply broken down (to be able to be utilized by our bodies) they are amino acids.  Meat and animal proteins are hard for our bodies to digest and the animal proteins take a long time and use a lot of energy to break down into the amino acids that our bodies can use (vs the amino acids found in fruits and vegetables which are much easier and take less energy to to break down and utilize for us).

 

I know it goes against everything that we have been taught since birth but think about it, the beef industry (American Cattleman's Association and the like), the dairy industry and the poultry industries are big business (run by huge wealthy corporations) which all relay on keeping us hooked on animal products to survive and thrive.  The AMA and the FDA as well as the Health care industry and the Big Pharma corps are also keen on promoting meat and dairy products to their customers and patients to keep them on rx meds and keep the steady cash flow going via doctor's and hospital visits and ongoing care etc. Is there any wonder as to why doctors are recommending high protein diets to people who have compromised kidney function and the like?

 

The American Cancer Society recommended fruits and vegetables (back in the 80's) to reduce your risk of getting cancer.  They have since abandoned that recommendation and are now recommending high protein/low carb diets.  I have already had several bouts of skin cancer and I don't plan on going there again.  I was on the Atkins diet (ketogenic high protein/low carb) off and on for more than a decade and it ruined me (and my health).

 

Why is it that kidney failure, cancer, strokes, heart attacks and the like are on the rise in most cultures (as is obesity and diabetes) in the last 50 years or so?  Diet.  What you put into your mouth everyday.  Americans ate less meat, less dairy, less processed foods, fast food and junk food in my parents and grand parents era.  It just wasn't as widely available and was more expensive back then (for them).  The milk and dairy products back then were not pasturized either.  Everything dairy was raw and unpasturized back then.  The meats were cleaner with less (or zero) antibiotics and hormones, and the food  for the animals was cleaner and better than it is now (think about all the GMO corn and soy that they eat now).

 

I know that most of you reading this will laugh and raise your BS flags and that's fine. 

 

I'm only posting this to share my own personal experience so that those who are suffering (like I was just a year or so ago) have some hope and can get relief just by changing what they put into their bodies vs going to the medical doctors who only treat the symptoms with prescription drugs (which do not cure anything, they just make things worse in the long run... think about the side effects and eventual need for stronger meds and different meds for their side effects and the ever increasing symptoms and pains that you will endure (not to mention kidney failure and dialysis).

 

Would I have done this if I had no problems?  No.  Would I rather have just kept on eating the foods that I love and was addicted to?  Yes, definitely. Do I miss eating out with my wife and friends and having a steak, fried chicken or a pizza every day?  Yes, but I have decided that my long term health and happiness is more valuable than the pleasures of the foods that I grew up on which I was only able to really enjoy while I was eating them. I am also sick of the ever increasing pain and inflammation that was taking over my whole life.  I couldn't even get a good nights sleep before because I was in so much pain.  Now I sleep 10 hours a day, like a baby.

 

I also hate going to the doctors and hospitals and I wish to avoid all that in my final years here before my death.  Most will choose to just continue on as they have been for most (or all) of their life and that's perfectly okay.  Everybody has to choose their own road or path to take and though I never, ever considered that I would ever give up the foods that I loved (and always laughed at vegans and raw food folks because "only hippies think like that"), I am glad I did.  My only regret is that I didn't do it years ago (but it is never too late).

 

Now I have assumed the role of "the idiot who gave up on everything but fruit and water" and will be laughed at by many but I'm fine with that.  My mind is clear, my vision has improved, my body and all my organs are getting healthier by the day and I feel great so it is all worth it to me. 

 

Carry on friends!

 

 

I'm not a nutrionist but your diet IMO is not sustainable for a long period. Those animals you mentioned are herbivore's. Their stomacks are made to digest grass and plants efeciantly. We are not cows and cannot digest grass. We are omnivores capable of eating and digesting some plants as well as meat ,fish, fruits and berries, grains/nuts legumes.   Fruits have a high sugar content and if you are eating eating only them and no veggies and also drinking  fruit smothies you are setting yourself up for diabetes

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MeePeeMai]

8 hours ago, Tony125 said:

I'm not a nutrionist but your diet IMO is not sustainable for a long period. Those animals you mentioned are herbivore's. Their stomacks are made to digest grass and plants efeciantly. We are not cows and cannot digest grass. We are omnivores capable of eating and digesting some plants as well as meat ,fish, fruits and berries, grains/nuts legumes.   Fruits have a high sugar content and if you are eating eating only them and no veggies and also drinking  fruit smothies you are setting yourself up for diabetes

 

Well that's where I must disagree with you.

 

We are not omnivores, we are frugivores. Same as chimps/apes and orangutans (even though when pushed out of their native habitat they must adapt and eat other than fruits to survive).  We are not carnivores as we have no claws or canines and cannot chase down and kill animals to eat them (as in the cat family).  We are not herbivores either (as you mentioned) so we cannot be omnivores (even though we seem to have evolved to eat as such and this is why our diets are killing us). 

 

This diet is sustainable long term as there are many how have done it for decades and some are in their 70's and 80's but it can be a challenge for sure.  The ones who cannot do it and do not look well are the ones who do not completely finish the detox process and complete the transition properly. 

 

I no longer eat grass, leaves, seeds, nuts, grains, roots, legumes, grass etc. I simply asked you where those animals get their protein from?  Would you care to answer that one?

 

BTW, fruits, berries and melons are high in sugar yes... but it is fructose (a simple sugar which DOES NOT require insulin to be able to enter the cells) as opposed to refined and processed sugars which are nightmares for the body.  Vegetables contain glucose which also does not require insulin to enter the cells.  Sucrose, refined and processes sugars AND sugar substitutes cause diabetes. 

 

In fact, eating only fruits berries and melons can cure a person of type 2 diabetes in a short period of time (as can long water fasts followed up with a proper supporting and healthy diet).  Lots of proof and studies on that. It's a fact.   It's the AMA and Medical Doctors that refuse to acknowledge these facts because it goes against their beliefs and what they were taught in school etc.  They would go out of business and go bankrupt if they actually "cured" people (of anything) instead of just "treating (masking) their symptoms" by putting them on medications for life.  It's a merry-go-round that is designed to be highly profitable and keep the sick people sick and on meds. 

 

Look up Dr. Robert Morse N.D. on YouTube if you care to do so, his channel is robertmorsend .  He promotes this diet and has even helped paras, quads, M.S. patients etc get out of their chairs and some are running marathons now.  He has also taken thousands of post chemo/radiation/immuno therapy stage 4 and 5 cancer patients (which were told they have only weeks to live and to call hospice) and has them completely cured and cancer free living happy and healthy lives where the allopathic doctors nearly killed them.  To each his own and everyone chooses their own path.  I do not trust or believe in Western medicine (other than for serious trauma and surgery).  I believe that most Rx drugs are poison that must be avoided (although there are some exceptions such as Lasix for CHF patients with sever edema (which is compromising their respiratory system etc.).  I was an EMT and worked on ambulances for 12 years so I do have some medical experience and I have my own stories to tell (but this is not the place for that).

 

I am not planning to live like this the rest of my life (though I just might) but I am using this method to detox and heal my body (and all my organs) until such time that I think I am as healthy as I could be and then maybe I will add more foods to my menu as I see fit.  It's all about listening to your body and not your mind.  Your body knows what it wants and what is good for it.  Our minds are what keeps us addicted to the foods we shouldn't be eating.  These foods are addictive and cause the release of dopamine, seratonin and other endorphins which keep you (your mind) craving the foods that stimulate your glands to release them for that feeling of "pleasure".

 

Like I said, it's not for everyone and I am not trying to convince anyone here.  This is not medical advice.  That was not the reason I posted this info.  I simply posted my own personal experience to share with others who are suffering and offer them some hope (outside of Rx drugs and doctors visits for the rest of their days). 

 

If you disbelieve any of what I said, that is perfectly fine with me and I am not here to try to convince you or anyone else otherwise. It is up to each individual to do their own research and make up their own minds what they want to believe and which path they want to follow.

 

Cheers and thanks for the discussion!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tony125]

2 hours ago, MeePeeMai said:

 

Well that's where I must disagree with you.

 

We are not omnivores, we are frugivores. Same as chimps/apes and orangutans (even though when pushed out of their native habitat they must adapt and eat other than fruits to survive).  We are not carnivores as we have no claws or canines and cannot chase down and kill animals to eat them (as in the cat family).  We are not herbivores either (as you mentioned) so we cannot be omnivores (even though we seem to have evolved to eat as such and this is why our diets are killing us). 

 

This diet is sustainable long term as there are many how have done it for decades and some are in their 70's and 80's but it can be a challenge for sure.  The ones who cannot do it and do not look well are the ones who do not completely finish the detox process and complete the transition properly. 

 

I no longer eat grass, leaves, seeds, nuts, grains, roots, legumes, grass etc. I simply asked you where those animals get their protein from?  Would you care to answer that one?

 

BTW, fruits, berries and melons are high in sugar yes... but it is fructose (a simple sugar which DOES NOT require insulin to be able to enter the cells) as opposed to refined and processed sugars which are nightmares for the body.  Vegetables contain glucose which also does not require insulin to enter the cells.  Sucrose, refined and processes sugars AND sugar substitutes cause diabetes. 

 

In fact, eating only fruits berries and melons can cure a person of type 2 diabetes in a short period of time (as can long water fasts followed up with a proper supporting and healthy diet).  Lots of proof and studies on that. It's a fact.   It's the AMA and Medical Doctors that refuse to acknowledge these facts because it goes against their beliefs and what they were taught in school etc.  They would go out of business and go bankrupt if they actually "cured" people (of anything) instead of just "treating (masking) their symptoms" by putting them on medications for life.  It's a merry-go-round that is designed to be highly profitable and keep the sick people sick and on meds. 

 

Look up Dr. Robert Morse N.D. on YouTube if you care to do so, his channel is robertmorsend .  He promotes this diet and has even helped paras, quads, M.S. patients etc get out of their chairs and some are running marathons now.  He has also taken thousands of post chemo/radiation/immuno therapy stage 4 and 5 cancer patients (which were told they have only weeks to live and to call hospice) and has them completely cured and cancer free living happy and healthy lives where the allopathic doctors nearly killed them.  To each his own and everyone chooses their own path.  I do not trust or believe in Western medicine (other than for serious trauma and surgery).  I believe that most Rx drugs are poison that must be avoided (although there are some exceptions such as Lasix for CHF patients with sever edema (which is compromising their respiratory system etc.).  I was an EMT and worked on ambulances for 12 years so I do have some medical experience and I have my own stories to tell (but this is not the place for that).

 

I am not planning to live like this the rest of my life (though I just might) but I am using this method to detox and heal my body (and all my organs) until such time that I think I am as healthy as I could be and then maybe I will add more foods to my menu as I see fit.  It's all about listening to your body and not your mind.  Your body knows what it wants and what is good for it.  Our minds are what keeps us addicted to the foods we shouldn't be eating.  These foods are addictive and cause the release of dopamine, seratonin and other endorphins which keep you (your mind) craving the foods that stimulate your glands to release them for that feeling of "pleasure".

 

Like I said, it's not for everyone and I am not trying to convince anyone here.  This is not medical advice.  That was not the reason I posted this info.  I simply posted my own personal experience to share with others who are suffering and offer them some hope (outside of Rx drugs and doctors visits for the rest of their days). 

 

If you disbelieve any of what I said, that is perfectly fine with me and I am not here to try to convince you or anyone else otherwise. It is up to each individual to do their own research and make up their own minds what they want to believe and which path they want to follow.

 

Cheers and thanks for the discussion!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interesing , I looked up articles on the subject and I agree on some points especially for detoxing the body but personally I don't think I could stay on the fruit only diet. I had health issues by getting fat/lazy eating a lot of junk. Later changed my diet to far less refined sugar, fish, lean meat, much more fruits and veggies , exercise and feel great so will stick with it. 

You don't say how long you have been on this diet ( not meaning a diet but way of eating) but glad you find it helps you just do medical checkups to see you don't get any deficiencies. You may need to suplement with vitamins or say nuts to keep protien levels up. Good luck.

 

[TKDfella]

3 hours ago, MeePeeMai said:

 

Well that's where I must disagree with you.

 

We are not omnivores, we are frugivores. Same as chimps/apes and orangutans (even though when pushed out of their native habitat they must adapt and eat other than fruits to survive).  We are not carnivores as we have no claws or canines and cannot chase down and kill animals to eat them (as in the cat family).  We are not herbivores either (as you mentioned) so we cannot be omnivores (even though we seem to have evolved to eat as such and this is why our diets are killing us). 

 

This diet is sustainable long term as there are many how have done it for decades and some are in their 70's and 80's but it can be a challenge for sure.  The ones who cannot do it and do not look well are the ones who do not completely finish the detox process and complete the transition properly. 

 

I no longer eat grass, leaves, seeds, nuts, grains, roots, legumes, grass etc. I simply asked you where those animals get their protein from?  Would you care to answer that one?

 

BTW, fruits, berries and melons are high in sugar yes... but it is fructose (a simple sugar which DOES NOT require insulin to be able to enter the cells) as opposed to refined and processed sugars which are nightmares for the body.  Vegetables contain glucose which also does not require insulin to enter the cells.  Sucrose, refined and processes sugars AND sugar substitutes cause diabetes. 

 

In fact, eating only fruits berries and melons can cure a person of type 2 diabetes in a short period of time (as can long water fasts followed up with a proper supporting and healthy diet).  Lots of proof and studies on that. It's a fact.   It's the AMA and Medical Doctors that refuse to acknowledge these facts because it goes against their beliefs and what they were taught in school etc.  They would go out of business and go bankrupt if they actually "cured" people (of anything) instead of just "treating (masking) their symptoms" by putting them on medications for life.  It's a merry-go-round that is designed to be highly profitable and keep the sick people sick and on meds. 

 

Look up Dr. Robert Morse N.D. on YouTube if you care to do so, his channel is robertmorsend .  He promotes this diet and has even helped paras, quads, M.S. patients etc get out of their chairs and some are running marathons now.  He has also taken thousands of post chemo/radiation/immuno therapy stage 4 and 5 cancer patients (which were told they have only weeks to live and to call hospice) and has them completely cured and cancer free living happy and healthy lives where the allopathic doctors nearly killed them.  To each his own and everyone chooses their own path.  I do not trust or believe in Western medicine (other than for serious trauma and surgery).  I believe that most Rx drugs are poison that must be avoided (although there are some exceptions such as Lasix for CHF patients with sever edema (which is compromising their respiratory system etc.).  I was an EMT and worked on ambulances for 12 years so I do have some medical experience and I have my own stories to tell (but this is not the place for that).

 

I am not planning to live like this the rest of my life (though I just might) but I am using this method to detox and heal my body (and all my organs) until such time that I think I am as healthy as I could be and then maybe I will add more foods to my menu as I see fit.  It's all about listening to your body and not your mind.  Your body knows what it wants and what is good for it.  Our minds are what keeps us addicted to the foods we shouldn't be eating.  These foods are addictive and cause the release of dopamine, seratonin and other endorphins which keep you (your mind) craving the foods that stimulate your glands to release them for that feeling of "pleasure".

 

Like I said, it's not for everyone and I am not trying to convince anyone here.  This is not medical advice.  That was not the reason I posted this info.  I simply posted my own personal experience to share with others who are suffering and offer them some hope (outside of Rx drugs and doctors visits for the rest of their days). 

 

If you disbelieve any of what I said, that is perfectly fine with me and I am not here to try to convince you or anyone else otherwise. It is up to each individual to do their own research and make up their own minds what they want to believe and which path they want to follow.

 

Cheers and thanks for the discussion!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

According to To John McArdle Ph.D we are omnivores; 

Sapiens is a subspecies of the Homo genus, which is in the Hominidae family. All Hominidae have been omnivores. Genetics institution;

Not all sapiens are omnivores. Homo-sapiens for example, are hebivores/frugivores by nature. Other institution.

Internal organ comparison from Nutrition Journal.

Some institutions prefer to say that Homo Sapiens sapiens are a mixture and more accurately described opportunist eaters.

[MeePeeMai]

Thanks Tony

 

I started this journey about 2 1/2 years ago and began by doing a 25 day water only fast (had a Burger King super sized meal the night before my fast which was a huge mistake.. but live and learn).  I just rested in bed the whole time.  That fast was way worse than it had to be since my body was HIGHLY TOXIC and I did not do any 2 week fruit juice only prep or detox or diet changes prior to my 1st fast.  I just wanted to see if I could make it to 30 days.  I tapped out at 25 but I broke my fast with fruit juice and watermelon and stayed fruit only for about a month afterwards, which was the correct thing to do.  My BP went from about 220/130 down to 130/84 (no meds).  It was quite miserable I must say.

 

I then slowly fell back into my old habits again but tried to eat less complex carbs and sweets.  After about 6 months I gained back the 30 pounds that I lost on my first fast, I did another 25 day water only fast (no prep this time either).  This one was much easier and the detox symptoms and healing crisis' were much less severe as most of the heavy metals, sulfur and other built up toxins had already been released.  After this one I went all fruit again for about 2 months and felt wonderful.  My weight went from 236 down to 190. My blood pressure went from about 160/100 down to 124/76 (no meds).  After this I started doing some intermittent dry fasting (1 and then 2 and then 3 and then 5 days) periodically and eating a lot more fruit and less and less garbage.

 

About a year ago I started doing approx. 1 month all fruit and then 1 month mixed (some fish/seafood/chicken/rice) and did this for about 8 months.  I went all fruit about 4 months ago now and still do intermittent water and dry fasting although I haven't done any more water fasts longer than 10 days since then (but I am hoping to do one soon).  I still want to make it 30 days (or more).

 

Previously Mr doctor recommended that I go on statins and back on my BP meds (I refused to take them any longer) and she told me I was a pre-diabetic etc.  My BP is now 120/64 with a resting pulse of about 64 and my last blood test everything was perfect (no more high cholesterol and no longer told that I was a "prediabetic").  The Doctor told me to "just keep doing whatever it was that I was doing because everything looks perfect" as she put it.  I don't do any vitamins, minerals, supplements or nuts as I get all I need with the fruit (thanks though).

 

You said "later changed my diet to far less refined sugar, fish, lean meat, much more fruits and veggies , exercise and feel great so will stick with it."  That is awesome Tony and you are doing the right thing for sure!  As long as your body feels better then you know you are doing the right thing and moving in the right direction.  Good for you!!

 

I think a lot of us older folks really need to change our eating habits and lifestyle as we get older or things just spiral downhill from here if we don't.

 

Have a great day and it is a pleasure talking to you about getting healthy!!

 

Derek

Edited November 25, 2019 by MeePeeMai

[MeePeeMai]

11 minutes ago, TKDfella said:

According to To John McArdle Ph.D we are omnivores; 

Sapiens is a subspecies of the Homo genus, which is in the Hominidae family. All Hominidae have been omnivores. Genetics institution;

Not all sapiens are omnivores. Homo-sapiens for example, are hebivores/frugivores by nature. Other institution.

Internal organ comparison from Nutrition Journal.

Some institutions prefer to say that Homo Sapiens sapiens are a mixture and more accurately described opportunist eaters.

 

I agree that humans eat like Omnivores and can tolerate most vegetables, seeds, nuts, fats (and can of course eat meat if they choose to do so) but I think that the reason mankind has so much illness and dis-ease is because he eats way too much animal products, animal proteins, cooked and processed foods etc which are hard to digest and compromise his kidney function over time.  This has caused genetic weaknesses over the past several generations which are then passed on down the line since whatever our mother ate while she was pregnant and while breast feeding, we were the direct consumers of the same foods so to speak since before birth.

 

I believe that we originated in the tropics and that as we migrated further North and further South, man had to alter his diet and accept new food sources in order to survive.  Look at the eskimos in Alaska for one example.  They consume very high amounts of animal fats and proteins but have a very short lifespan while islanders (who survived on mostly fruits) lived much longer.  Just my opinion, I'm not stating anything here as an absolute fact. 

 

Many scholars, doctors and scientists disagree about many different things and this is life here on Earth.   Everybody is entitled to their own opinions and I no longer look at it as one is right and one is wrong,   I just look at it as we each have our own beliefs and opinions and I go with what works for me or my gut feeling at that time (which may be subject to change).

 

I appreciate your reply and discussion!!  Cheers!

 

[MeePeeMai]

1 hour ago, Tony125 said:

You don't say how long you have been on this diet ( not meaning a diet but way of eating) but glad you find it helps you just do medical checkups to see you don't get any deficiencies. You may need to suplement with vitamins or say nuts to keep protien levels up. Good luck.

Hey Tony I apologize.

 

I replied to your last post to me but I forgot to quote you on it so you might have missed my reply.  (see my post above)  Thanks!!

[MeePeeMai]

40 year old fruitarian eats nothing but fruit now for many, many years (check out his channel and there are many others like him).

 

This guy RAN 100 MILES FOR 22 HOURS STRAIGHT up and down a mountain in Hawaii and took 1st place.  No protein, none whatsoever. 

 

 

 

[TKDfella]

1 hour ago, MeePeeMai said:

 

I agree that humans eat like Omnivores and can tolerate most vegetables, seeds, nuts, fats (and can of course eat meat if they choose to do so) but I think that the reason mankind has so much illness and dis-ease is because he eats way too much animal products, animal proteins, cooked and processed foods etc which are hard to digest and compromise his kidney function over time.  This has caused genetic weaknesses over the past several generations which are then passed on down the line since whatever our mother ate while she was pregnant and while breast feeding, we were the direct consumers of the same foods so to speak since before birth.

 

I believe that we originated in the tropics and that as we migrated further North and further South, man had to alter his diet and accept new food sources in order to survive.  Look at the eskimos in Alaska for one example.  They consume very high amounts of animal fats and proteins but have a very short lifespan while islanders (who survived on mostly fruits) lived much longer.  Just my opinion, I'm not stating anything here as an absolute fact. 

 

Many scholars, doctors and scientists disagree about many different things and this is life here on Earth.   Everybody is entitled to their own opinions and I no longer look at it as one is right and one is wrong,   I just look at it as we each have our own beliefs and opinions and I go with what works for me or my gut feeling at that time (which may be subject to change).

 

I appreciate your reply and discussion!!  Cheers!

 

There is no doubt, I think, in anyone's mind that we humans are a bit more particulate, that seems to be way we have evolved. However, some of my (scientific) friends suggest that it is a little more subtle than just stomach and physical makeup. They suggest that the brain has a greater influence on what we consume than other attributes. Now this, of course, really does open the floodgates (so to speak) because we can argue about this and that affecting how the brain functions under various conditions. But strangely enough, I think it has a bearing on the original OP and how we each deal with the coming of age.

Take myself for example, as a martial artist (among other things) and over 75 years old it's important to maintain a balance in not only diet but everything else. I eat a little meat but never in steak-like proportions so it would be true to say that my vegetable intake is more that meat protein. I tend to eat the juicy fruits rather than dry ones but I have quite a distinct limit with this and over the years have found what I can and cannot tolerate. Although fruits can be high in vitamins and other nutrients they can be high in acidic properties too and that's is the problem I have.

So what I'm suggesting here is that if one takes the time to find these personal limitations and balance things out then there is no need for such adjustments as detoxification, fasting and the like. This makes life far more comfortable, in a continuous sense, though I suspect some might see it as boring. Everyone to own, I guess, Ha!

Nice chat though, thank you.

[MeePeeMai]

30 minutes ago, TKDfella said:

So what I'm suggesting here is that if one takes the time to find these personal limitations and balance things out then there is no need for such adjustments as detoxification, fasting and the like. This makes life far more comfortable, in a continuous sense, though I suspect some might see it as boring. Everyone to own, I guess, Ha!

Nice chat though, thank you.

Your entire post is absolutely correct!  I have always done things to the extreme, loved extreme sports and challenges as such so I do love to push myself to the limit sometimes just to test my mental capacity, will power and personal tolerance.  I sometimes have been know to take the short cut too (no matter how painful it was) but that's just me.  I also stick with high water content fruits and don't eat bananas and the like.  I rarely eat citrus fruits unless they are less acidic and very ripe and sweet (like the honey murcott oranges from Australia at Makro) but citrus fruits are strong astringents and can be eaten when one needs to pull mucous out of the body (much quicker than other fruits). 

 

Long term fasting is not for everybody (that's for sure) but if done properly, it can be used to cure such things as diabetes type II, tumors, cancer, hypertension and other ailments.  Check out the True North Health Center's website (they are in California) and they do M.D. supervised long term water fasting to help persons suffering from all kinds of ailments and dis-eases.  They have been in business for decades, have quite a track record and you can read some of their stats and research on their website.  They also have a lot of YouTube videos where they discuss the benefits of long term fasting (which is what got me started fasting).  They promote long term water fasting along with diet and lifestyle changes for those in need who can afford their services (quite expensive).  It's nice to have alternatives to endless doctors visits, medical tests and Rx meds for life.

 

Nice to hear that you are still into martial arts and staying healthy!  Have a great evening!!

Edited November 25, 2019 by MeePeeMai

[TKDfella]

12 hours ago, MeePeeMai said:

Your entire post is absolutely correct!  I have always done things to the extreme, loved extreme sports and challenges as such so I do love to push myself to the limit sometimes just to test my mental capacity, will power and personal tolerance.  I sometimes have been know to take the short cut too (no matter how painful it was) but that's just me.  I also stick with high water content fruits and don't eat bananas and the like.  I rarely eat citrus fruits unless they are less acidic and very ripe and sweet (like the honey murcott oranges from Australia at Makro) but citrus fruits are strong astringents and can be eaten when one needs to pull mucous out of the body (much quicker than other fruits). 

 

Long term fasting is not for everybody (that's for sure) but if done properly, it can be used to cure such things as diabetes type II, tumors, cancer, hypertension and other ailments.  Check out the True North Health Center's website (they are in California) and they do M.D. supervised long term water fasting to help persons suffering from all kinds of ailments and dis-eases.  They have been in business for decades, have quite a track record and you can read some of their stats and research on their website.  They also have a lot of YouTube videos where they discuss the benefits of long term fasting (which is what got me started fasting).  They promote long term water fasting along with diet and lifestyle changes for those in need who can afford their services (quite expensive).  It's nice to have alternatives to endless doctors visits, medical tests and Rx meds for life.

 

Nice to hear that you are still into martial arts and staying healthy!  Have a great evening!!

Thank you. Take care of yourself...not so easy in today's society.

[Tony125]

 

82 Year old female bodybuilder beats up home intruder

https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/viral/82-year-old-bodybuilder-fights-off-home-intruder/vi-BBXjb5N

 

As she told the police who arrived to take him to a hospital , "he picked the wrong house"

[BritManToo]

On 11/5/2019 at 5:09 PM, Number 6 said:

If my wife and I were to part I could easily see her going for a guy 50+. She's 43 and looks 34-37.

 

I'd prefer one that looks 20-25.

They don't cost any more than the older ones.

[rumak]

On 11/25/2019 at 5:00 PM, MeePeeMai said:

Many scholars, doctors and scientists disagree about many different things and this is life here on Earth.   Everybody is entitled to their own opinions and I no longer look at it as one is right and one is wrong,   I just look at it as we each have our own beliefs and opinions and I go with what works for me or my gut feeling at that time (which may be subject to change).

Thanks MPM  !   I second that .    

[rumak]

2 hours ago, BritManToo said:

I'd prefer one that looks 20-25.

They don't cost any more than the older ones.

it is a trade off.   I had 25 yrs olds.   Much prefer my 40 year old.   

 

and...... i have been with a few others that age(40) with really nice bodies , and nice attitudes as

an added bonus.     i am a sexy man   

Edited December 1, 2019 by rumak

[CharlieH]

12 minutes ago, rumak said:

it is a trade off.   I had 25 yrs olds.   Much prefer my 40 year old.   

 

and...... i have been with a few others that age(40) with really nice bodies , and nice attitudes as

an added bonus.     i am a sexy man   

I tend to look at things like a jig-saw, sometimes the pieces just click, sometimes they need a little coaxing, sometimes they just dont work and you need to try another. ????  the ones that fit are great, no matter what the age.

 

[rumak]

11 minutes ago, CharlieH said:

I tend to look at things like a jig-saw, sometimes the pieces just click, sometimes they need a little coaxing, sometimes they just dont work and you need to try another. ????  the ones that fit are great, no matter what the age.

 

Either i was bad at jig-saw puzzles or they gave me the wrong pieces    LOL

To be honest,  i made the usual mistake of giving way too much priority to beauty.

I was very fortunate to one day stumble across one that fit just right.  I have a feeling

you did as well .

[Tony125]

5 hours ago, Tony125 said:

 

82 Year old female bodybuilder beats up home intruder

https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/viral/82-year-old-bodybuilder-fights-off-home-intruder/vi-BBXjb5N

 

As she told the police who arrived to take him to a hospital , "he picked the wrong house"

 

3 Core exercises for seniors

https://www.warriormade.com/content/exercise/3-core-exercises-for-seniors-to-improve-stability/?&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=wm-blog-exercise&utm_content=account-3---tracking-0521190500&subAffId=facebook&affSub=0521190500&affId=3&fbclid=IwAR2tYQlu0hXySyV1cUhLa5tpirRcQm8kcDLruH56PgA3BJmsUI0hxNYwPEg

[thaibeachlovers]

13 hours ago, rumak said:

it is a trade off.   I had 25 yrs olds.   Much prefer my 40 year old.   

 

and...... i have been with a few others that age(40) with really nice bodies , and nice attitudes as

an added bonus.     i am a sexy man   

Lucky to get a 40 year old that hasn't had kids.

Having kids automatically ruins their figure and they come with a huge problem that last the rest of their life (the kids ).

My first partner and my wife both had been pregnant and my partner had living children, so I do know something about it.

If I actually did want to have a partner/ wife again, it's be to a woman never had children and never wanted any. They do exist.