Suspect of working in Thailand ... Really? Doing what?

[NanLaew]

5 hours ago, Puchaiyank said:

This question about "working" in Thailand exposes the greater issue: "Shouldn't immigration be burden with evidence of proof... to support their loose allegations of wrong doing?"

 

Entirely too much bias and power in the hands of unethical people...

I was on the point of being denied entry to the US after living and working legally there for well over 12 years. After 4 consecutive secondary inspections by US Immigration after arrival, they finally came up with the legal reason reason why I could no longer qualify to use the visa-waiver system. In the interim, there were many accusations of possibly working illegally or overstaying my 90-day (visa-waiver) allowances or threats to just deport me 'right now' without any reason given. After the second harassment, I retained a lawyer who specialized in US immigration matters. He advised me that when it came to their questioning me about my dates of entry and exit, the onus was on me to prove anything contrary to what the Immigration databases indicated. At the same time, neither my lawyer or I are allowed access to what they have on file on their system. That onus meant my going back through records of 'well over 12 years' of travel in and out of the US. In lieu of the many countries that do NOT stamp passports, that would also entail sifting through emails for airline reservations, old boarding pass stubs and the like so I let the lawyer go.

 

I consider that when it comes to proving things, Thai Immigration have no obligation to provide any evidence for their decisions whatsoever. The onus will always be on the punter being shown the door.

 

Did you know that the computerized immigration database that Thai Immigration uses is a free loaner from the US government and identical to their immigration database?

Edited September 30, 2019 by NanLaew

[CGW]

5 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Did you know that the computerized immigration database that Thai Immigration uses is a free loaner from the US government and identical to their immigration database?

I didn't, though strongly suspected it! impossible for me to believe the Thais would go to the trouble and expense they are going to without an ulterior motive!

Do you have a link to the facts?

[Khon Kaen Jeff]

12 minutes ago, CGW said:

Yes, I should have added they should either apply the same rules for all or change the "law" as it is totally random now, luck playing a large part for some! 

Definitely, could just get an IO who just had a big ruck with the wife and takes it out on you. But as ubonjoe alludes to it's highly unlikely to become law as it would cost the gov money ultimately, so will just continue in this roulette mode. Personally I am on a 1 yr non O based on being married, but who knows that could change one day...and yes, I did get married just to get the visa ???? 

[NanLaew]

11 minutes ago, CGW said:

Do you have a link to the facts?

Yes, I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you.

[SteveK]

2 hours ago, wasabi said:

My wife and I were asked to speak Thai when we were interrogated. We both speak Thai very well and did as asked but I suspected this was not in my favor and it could be a trap, however I didn't want to 'play dumb'.  My wife is fluent in Lao and Thai as first languages and I studied Thai in Thailand for 2 years on an ED visa plus we speak Thai everyday. Many things can look a certain way but in my case since my ED visa I have always and only come to Thailand as a tourist. I wish when accused of working they would dig deeper because in our case they'll find no proof of what isn't there.

I never speak Thai with the IOs, even say thank you to them in English.

[4675636b596f75]

3 pages and not one answered my question.  Do I have to ask it again?  When they claim they suspect you of working, what type of work would that be?

 

Taxi Driver?

Whore?

Professional Agitator?

Goldsmith?

 

 

[CGW]

20 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Yes, I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you.

Best keep "Mum" then, just started a nice bottle of Scotch 

[CGW]

29 minutes ago, Khon Kaen Jeff said:

yes, I did get married just to get the visa ???? 

Unfortunately I didn't "retire" to get retirement visa, had to keep working to make sure I have the funds! 

[4675636b596f75]

No one mentioned taking care of a Thai.

[Tayaout]

14 minutes ago, 4675636b596f75 said:

3 pages and not one answered my question.  Do I have to ask it again?  When they claim they suspect you of working, what type of work would that be?

 

Taxi Driver?

Whore?

Professional Agitator?

Goldsmith?

 

 

Mostly English teacher.

[ubonjoe]

17 minutes ago, 4675636b596f75 said:

3 pages and not one answered my question.  Do I have to ask it again?  When they claim they suspect you of working, what type of work would that be?

Any kind of work that requires a work permit and/or the correct visa or extension of stay.

[4675636b596f75]

1 minute ago, ubonjoe said:

Any kind of work that requires a work permit and/or the correct visa or extension of stay.

So it's just throwing spaghetti at a wall?

 

Don't try that with uncooked spaghetti, it's guaranteed that nothing will stick.

[Khon Kaen Jeff]

19 minutes ago, 4675636b596f75 said:

3 pages and not one answered my question.  Do I have to ask it again? 

 

My god. I can't believe you have had to ask AGAIN! have you thought about taking this up with the powers to be on here as quite clearly this is NOT acceptable.? I can't speak for others but I profoundly apologise for not answering your question in the way that were was expecting, sorry again sir.

[Roy Baht]

2 minutes ago, Tayaout said:

Mostly English teacher.

Any native English speaker willing to come to this country and work for such crappy salaries should be welcomed with open arms. Since the crackdown on "illegal" English teachers here (usually the fault of their employers), Thailand's English language proficiency has plummeted.

https://www.ef.co.th/epi/regions/asia/thailand/

[Just Weird]

11 hours ago, 4675636b596f75 said:

What kind of work do you suppose immigration suspects these people are doing?

That's irrelevant, if someone visits Thailand so often that they could be coming here for work that's all Immigration needs.  They don't need to specify any particular occupation any more than they need to try to imagine what the job could be.  It works that way in your country, also, when visitors could be there to work illegally.

[4675636b596f75]

4 minutes ago, Just Weird said:

That's irrelevant, if someone visits Thailand so often that they could be coming here for work that's all Immigration needs.

All speculation.  They could be coming here for many reasons. 

[ubonjoe]

6 minutes ago, 4675636b596f75 said:

So it's just throwing spaghetti at a wall?

 

Don't try that with uncooked spaghetti, it's guaranteed that nothing will stick.

Here is the latest definition of work.

Soruce: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZYhf0Xt6ktzXVILU1G7Kxuo3RKop00k8/view

[EricTh]

Some people do work illegally as English teachers, these people are usually jobless back in their own countries.

 

I've met a few of them.

 

Working online is actually not permitted by law but it is a grey area.

Edited September 30, 2019 by EricTh

[cerox]

If they wanted us to be here just give everyone retirement visa. I would happily deposit 800k in the bank - many others I know too.

This would also send out the Cheap Charlies and those who work here illegally on crappy salaries.

But they do not want us here.

Buying 20y 1M THB Elite visa? There are better options, other countries etc.

 

 

[sumrit]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

If concerned about people who are working here illegally they should go after those hiring them to work here.

What is occurring at some airports appears to be some immigration officers that are making up their own rules and requirements since most denials are not based upon any fact.

I agree, if somebody is caught working illegally, the employer should also be prosecuted, and given a large enough sentence to deter others from employing people illegally.

 

But, are you suggesting people should be allowed into Thailand UNLESS THE IO can show proof the the individual is/intends to break the law in Thailand? The onus is on the individual to show/prove they have the correct permission to stay/visa for their stay in Thailand, have sufficient funds available and can/will comply with all the rules for the entire length of their visit. The onus is NOT ON THE IO TO PROVE ANYTHING, suspicion is enough.

 

If the IO has any suspicions at all he is entitled to refuse entry.

 

While we all know immigration rules have been lax, to say the least, in the past, things are changing and becoming more strict and we are all suffering for it, regardless of the type of permission of stay we are using. Every time we sympathise to others, who aren't complying with immigration rules, and suggest (questionable) ways round them staying in Thailand we are (potentially) making it more difficult for the rest of us (who are legal) by having to comply with ever more stringent rules in the future.

[tgeezer]

1 hour ago, 4675636b596f75 said:

3 pages and not one answered my question.  Do I have to ask it again?  When they claim they suspect you of working, what type of work would that be?

 

Taxi Driver?

Whore?

Professional Agitator?

Goldsmith?

 

 

You could start with the Immigration Act since it is Immigration we are dealing with.

Immigration Act. Section 2.12.3 gives reasons to refuse entry.  Linked to that is 2.12.2 dealing with not having means of support appropriate to your visa.

work: support yourself by manual labour or receive payment for manual labour which does not require skill or expertise or other work which is against the law for foreigners to do. 

Work seems to be defined as manual labour so bar manager is ‘out’,  Digital nomad is not but under Regulation 2.12.2 what is the appropriate visa for it? 

 

Edited September 30, 2019 by tgeezer
update

[Suradit69]

7 hours ago, Puchaiyank said:

Shouldn't immigration be burden with evidence of proof..

No, immigration officers around the world have to make almost instant decisions at their discretion based on their experience and criteria they've been given in training. You're free to appeal just as you would be if arrested by police for traffic violations or, more familiar to many TV members, indecent exposure or lewd behavior charges.

 

In western countries people stopped by immigrations officers can be deported/refused entry or incarcerated or caged for months and they can wait for years before a final determination of their cases by immigration judges. Why should Thailand not operate similarly? Or do farang economic refugees and sex tourists feel entitled to game the system at will?

 

Thailand used to be far more easy-going about all immigration matters. Massive abuse of this relaxed attitude by foreigners motivated many of the changes.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Suradit69

[Suradit69]

1 hour ago, Roy Baht said:

Any native English speaker willing to come to this country and work for such crappy salaries should be welcomed with open arms. Since the crackdown on "illegal" English teachers here (usually the fault of their employers), Thailand's English language proficiency has plummeted.

https://www.ef.co.th/epi/regions/asia/thailand/

A lot of the posters in this thread would claim to be Native English Speakers but in the first page of this thread alone many appear to be struggling unsuccessfully with basic English. 

 

If if you have read any posts on TV by people who also claim to be NES teachers of English in Thailand, it would be easy to understand why so many of their students are not accomplished English speakers. Still most handle English better than the majority of farang can demonstrate using the Thai language despite years living here.

[dcnx]

10 hours ago, Maestro said:

Depending on the reason for the rejection, the foreigner can file an appeal with the Minister of the Interior according to section 22 of the Immigration Act.

And you sit in the detention cell until they get around to it?

[Just Weird]

1 hour ago, 4675636b596f75 said:

All speculation.  They could be coming here for many reasons. 

Yes, I know that, including coming here to work!

[recom273]

I have to admit, I worked illegally as a teacher without a degree and WP for many years, we would all toddle off to Laos to pick up a 2 month Tourist visa, back to Suhan Plu to extend 30 days. It was hardly worth the money.

 

Later, I got married and started working for better employees who could get work permits, which actually isn’t that difficult. 
 

I got grilled on entry many times, the IO’s couldn’t stop me.

 

The immigration and consulates are a lot more clued up now, it’s not just teachers surviving on a pittance, if you have a bit of common, you can make a decent living online or through clever investments. This doesn’t mean that you can live anywhere in the world you want.
 

This is where the issue lies, it’s not that people are following the traditional path of working illegally - Thailand is known for its cheap, easy and convenient life - people have failed to realize It’s not the 70-90’s any longer. You can’t just plot up here because you like Thai lifestyle, food, beaches or women without the right visa.
 

 

[ubonjoe]

13 minutes ago, dcnx said:

And you sit in the detention cell until they get around to it?

It has to replied to with 7 days or the appeal is grant and the denial of entry is canceled.

From section 22.

"The order of the Minister shall be final.Appealing cases are not allowed under Section 12 (1) or (10) , but if the Minister does not have an order within seven days beginning from the date of submitting the appeal, it is considered that the Minister has
ordered that said alien is not forbidden from entering into the Kingdom under Section 12."

[BritManToo]

1 minute ago, ubonjoe said:

It has to replied to with 7 days or the appeal is grant and the denial of entry is canceled.

From section 22.

"The order of the Minister shall be final.Appealing cases are not allowed under Section 12 (1) or (10) , but if the Minister does not have an order within seven days beginning from the date of submitting the appeal, it is considered that the Minister has
ordered that said alien is not forbidden from entering into the Kingdom under Section 12."

Problem being they don't tell you why you are being refused, and you don't see your passport until you're getting off the plane home.

[ThomasThBKK]

2 hours ago, SteveK said:

I never speak Thai with the IOs, even say thank you to them in English.

 

Once they <deleted> me off and complained when i greated them in english.

 

Whatever you do with these guys is wrong ???? i refuse to learn this language, the same time invested in another language like spanish/chinese or a random programming language etc would gain me more opportunities.

Edited September 30, 2019 by ThomasThBKK

[Proboscis]

14 hours ago, kingofthemountain said:

The truth is if you are denied to entry in Thailand

it's can not be because you are working in Thailand, because at the moment

you are not inside, so it's difficult to prove.

Then it's just free accusation or suspection from the immigration

then they can use another excuse (Not enough money, too entries in thailand in one year

or whatever reason, bad or good, real or not) and denied you.

The good question could be if you are denied for a dumb reason

(For example not enough funds even if you have your atm card and a well stocked bank account)

what are your legal recourse (I mean with a correct chance of success) before to be pulled in a plane back to your country?

What you say is perfectly logical but it does not stop immigration officers from trying it.

 

A couple of years ago, I approached a land border to enter Thailand and was told that I was going there to work. This was despite having a work permit and work visa for the other SE ASian country in my passport. I had been in Thailand once that year for a few days.

 

Instead of arguing with them, I said that if they wanted to exclude me from Thailand to please go ahead with it and I will then approach the Thai Embassy in this other SE Asian bordering country where I had a full time job to make a complaint. My passport was stamped with the greatest lack of grace and I went on my way.