Compulsory Health insurance for 0-A visa applicants effective 31st October

[MRToMRT]

18 hours ago, Lovethailandelite said:

For those who buy health insurance from foreign companies Must have the sum insured not less than Thai health insurance as stipulated as well

I can't see that in the order, can anyone point it out?

[MRToMRT]

10 hours ago, La Migra said:

Unless that heartbeat was a heart attack or stroke....in which case you would end up in a Thai hospital for at least some amount of time.

I agree. Additionally, after my last heart attack here I was banned from flying for 6 weeks and so you become an outpatient here and cannot leave (if you have any sense) until the doctor clears you. 

[spambot]

I currently have an application for O-A visa saved on the electronic application system and waiting for my criminal record certificate before completing the application. 

 

The anticipated date of finalising the application is 16th October and my flight is 7th November. 

 

Does this mean I could be issued with an O-A visa, but because I arrive at immigration without medical insurance I will be refused entry?

[Sheryl]

How many people will it really effect? Most of the majority are on retirement extension
I suspect the number would be tiny

It will affect new arrivals, and people already here who seek a subsequent O-A.

And possibly (unclear) recent arrivals on an O-A who seek an in-country extension of stay but that remains to be clarified. The order speaks only of entries but seems focused on each new provision of permission to stay. Argument could be made that an in-country extension of stay after entry on an O-A amounts to the same thing but who knows how IOs will interpret it/what they've been told. Time will tell. If I were in that situation I would talk to my local Imm office now, and periodically after that if they say they don't know now. (Anyone who does, please post what you learn).

I personally am not in any of those categories but concerned for those who are...and also doing some contingency planning in case this metastasizes to in-country extensions of stay under non-Os. I have no information to that effect but better prepared than not.

As Moderator of the Health forum I have seen the problems caused by lack of adequate health insurance and long advocated that people should have it. Unfortunately these new regulations will have opposite effect, may lull people into false confidence and lead people to abandon good policies.

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[malagateddy]

You cannot say that unless we see an order specifying it. I figure it is best not to have a knee jerk reaction to this yet. I am 3 months into an insurance policy that would not qualify as per the O-A terms, and when retirement extension comes along next month expect it not to be an issue. 

Jacko

Please post how you get on with your extension..I'll be doing mine near the end of December
Thanks

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[jacko45k]

15 minutes ago, malagateddy said:

Jacko

Please post how you get on with your extension..I'll be doing mine near the end of December
Thanks

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I do not expect immigration to check for something that is not specified. We will certainly hear about it if that situation changes! (That would send a few packing!). Of course I will report back but it will not be until late November.

[Pib]

For us folks on retirement extensions of stay...or any other 1 year long stay type extension like a marriage extension of stay....let's hope this step by the Thai govt to require medical insurance for people using an OA Visa is not just the "first step" of a grander plan to require medical insurance for any "long stay" visa or extension of stay.  A plan they will be implemented step-by-step....first step was the OA Visa. 

 

Or maybe I should say the OA Visa was the "second" step because the first step was when they implemented the OX Visa (the 10 yr Visa) a few years ago which required medical insurance and which each year the OX Visa holder must confirm/prove to immigration they still have the medical coverage....medical coverage under the same criteria they have just implemented for the OA Visa we are now talking about.

 

If the govt's real (but unspoken) goal is to require all long stay visitors to have medical insurance then the govt will at some point require medical insurance for retirement, marriage, and just any "long stay" visa/extension of stay.

 

 

 

 

 

[Sheryl]

12 hours ago, Pib said:

Well, one thing for sure, we will be finding out pretty soon from posts if a person transitioning for a Non-OA Visa to an Extension of Stay is required to have medical insurance to get the Extension of Stay since the police order is effective 31 Oct 2019....end of this month.  I'm sure every day there are a few folks applying for their first extension of stay based on their expiring Non-OA. 

 

I am willing to bet that what we will find out is, as usual: Different Imm offices have different policies/understandings.

 

 

[Pib]

Just now, Sheryl said:

 

I am willing to bet that what we will find out is, as usual: Different Imm offices have different policies/understandings.

Amen!!!!

[Sheryl]

12 hours ago, La Migra said:

Why would you not want/have health insurance where you live?

This seems common sense for someone, personally. 

From Thai Govt standpoint, if they, or their citizens/hospitals get stuck with the medical bills, then extending it to all long term visas (and extensions) seems to make sense.

 

 

The issue is not that people don't want insurance.

 

it is that Immigration is not accepting people's insurance and requiring them to drop excellent policies with adequate coverage in favor of overpriced sub-par policies with inadequate cover.

 

it is not a step towards people being better able to afford medical costs, quite the opposite.

 

In addition people with lifelong unlimited medical cover -- i.e. people with Thai SS and US military retirees - are required to nonetheless buy overpriced private policies that they have no need of.

 

This is not designed to ensure ability to pay medical bills.  Either TI is totally misinformed/uninformed or it is solely intended to bring in revenue to a small group of local companies (possibly both with the local companies having misled TI).

 

We will soon have people WITH these mandatory policies unable to pay hospital bills because the bills way exceed the maximum required cover. If I had to guess, eventually TI will significantly raise the coverage requirement and what is already a very expensive premium will become absurdly so.

[Sheryl]

10 hours ago, sunnyboy2018 said:

But I have real international medical insurance from BUPA. I pay a high monthly premium for it. Where does that leave me?

 

Depending on which source you believe either:

 

1- not accepted at all, still have to buy one of these local policies (seems to be what the police order says)

 

OR

 

2 - OK for first year stay under an O-A and then have to buy local policy (what the longstay website says). May also have been said at press conference but that report is a bit garbled.

 

This is the maddening part. I would have no problem with the requirement if (1) required cover levels made sense in terms of ensuring ability to pay for medical care and (2) any insurance  or other form of medical cover (e.g. Thai SS) valid in |Thailand that met those levels was accepted.

 

Unfortunately neither is the case.

 

If that had designed this with an appropriate coverage requirement there would have been no need to create special overpriced insurance products either, people could buy existing prioducts which are better valeu for money because not aimed solely at the elderly.

[Sheryl]

17 minutes ago, Pib said:

.......

If the govt's real (but unspoken) goal is to require all long stay visitors to have medical insurance then the govt will at some point require medical insurance for retirement, marriage, and just any "long stay" visa/extension of stay.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think it is clear that this is their goal, though they unfortunately do not understand what adequate medical insurance for foreigners in Thailand needs to consist of,  nor that there are many foreigners who have access to free health care in Thailand through the SS system and military benefits.

 

It does not necessarily follow though that they will go on to apply  this to extensions of stay under visas issued prior to this order (non-O in most cases). They might do s,  but they might also in effect "grandfather" these people in and just make it effective for all new retirees, understanding that over time it will achieve the same thing as the ones already here gradually die off. I hope it is the latter but I'm doing my contingency planning in case of the former as I imagine many others are too.

 

Marriage and parental  extensions are a can of worms  since anything that makes it harder for people to get them risks breaking up families. Who knows what they'll do on that front.  Also people are allowed to work on marriage extensions and those who do would likely be covered under SS. (So too are many retirees through continuing the contributions on their own but TI seems not to realize this).

[ubonjoe]

11 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

And then we come back to the eternal debate about what it means when people say to "renew" a visa for Thailand. Does that mean getting a new visa from one's home country consulate, or does it mean getting an extension of stay from Thai Immigration?

Using renew is really a incorrect word to use since it can have been used for so many things.

You apply for a new visa at a embassy or consulate. You apply for a new extension of your permit to stay not a a visa at immigration.

Immigration does not use the word visa in their police orders for extensions of stay.

Mixing up visas and extension of stay does not help at all.

 

[Sheryl]

2 hours ago, patinchis said:

I have an OA visa issued in london 29th August, I am due to enter this weekend , my wife with same visa due to enter 31 Oct can anyone tell me if they will refuse enter in the already issued visas as I don’t have the health insurance ?


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The way I read it (see below) you will be fine but your wife could have a problem. If I were you I'd try to schedule her arrival to be a day earlier.

 

You should then both be fine for the one year period of stay if you don't leave the country  but would need to get a policy in order to leave and re-enter with a new period of stay.

 

 

[Sheryl]

2 hours ago, spambot said:

I currently have an application for O-A visa saved on the electronic application system and waiting for my criminal record certificate before completing the application. 

 

The anticipated date of finalising the application is 16th October and my flight is 7th November. 

 

Does this mean I could be issued with an O-A visa, but because I arrive at immigration without medical insurance I will be refused entry?

 

The way I read it, yes it does if you arrive on 7 November. but not if you arrive before 31 October. (not for the first year of stay, that is. You'll need a policy to get a second year). 

[ubonjoe]

2 hours ago, patinchis said:

I have an OA visa issued in london 29th August, I am due to enter this weekend , my wife with same visa due to enter 31 Oct can anyone tell me if they will refuse enter in the already issued visas as I don’t have the health insurance ?

No they will not since your visa was issued before October 31st.

[Sheryl]

2 hours ago, khaepmu said:

I already have government insurance. A fee is deducted from my bank account every month for the coverage. I wonder if this insurance is adequate or meets the requirements for the compulsory insurance for O-A applicants and what evidence I would need to show that I am covered. The social services office no longer renew one's insurance card. Instead, I was told that you just show your passport when going to the hospital and your passport number is in the system. Of course, this insurance only applies to the province you live in although you are covered for emergency situations in other provinces. I would like to know how I could find out or what evidence I would need to show that I have legitimate health insurance.

 

There is no apparent provision for people with Thai SS. The way it reads they would still be required to buy a policy. Which is unnecessary and ridiculous.

 

However, this applies to you only if you will be getting a new O-A visa or re-entering on an O-A visa after 31 October or possibly (unclear at this point and may depend on local Imm office interpretation ) getting a new extension of stay under an O-A visa.  If like most of the retirees already living in Thailand you have annual extensions of stay based on a non-O visa this order does not apply.

[Sheryl]

2 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

No they will not since your visa was issued before October 31st.

 

Joe doesn't para 2 indicate that it is the date of entry  that matters?  I.e for it not to apply would have to have received the visa and entered (been granted a period of stay) before 31 October?

[ubonjoe]

2 hours ago, spambot said:

I currently have an application for O-A visa saved on the electronic application system and waiting for my criminal record certificate before completing the application. 

The anticipated date of finalising the application is 16th October and my flight is 7th November. 

You need to check with the embassy about your application. You may need proof of the insurance. 

This is now on the embassy website (it was not there yesterday). No mention of effective date I can find.

"Copy of evidence stating that applicants have insurance as stipulated by the Office of Insurance Commission and health insurance of Thailand which has insurance coverage for outpatient not less than 40,000 Baht and for inpatient not less than 400,000 Baht. Please check < http://longstay.tgia.org> for more information regarding the insurance requirement."

Source:  http://www.thaiembassy.org/london/en/services/7742/84508-Non-Immigrant-visas.html#7

[ubonjoe]

3 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Joe doesn't para 2 indicate that it is the date of entry  that matters?  I.e for it not to apply would have to have received the visa and entered (been granted a period of stay) before 31 October?

How can they enforce something that was not in effect when the visa was issued. Are they going to deny a entry when using a visa that was issued 11 months ago?

There is no mention of the requirements being retroactive.

 

[ThaiBob]

I noticed the Thai Embassy in Los Angeles has not their website. 

 

https://thaiconsulatela.org/en/visa/visa-type/non-immigration-category-o-a/

 

Months ago the insurance requirements were added and later dropped. 

[onera1961]

2 hours ago, patinchis said:

I have an OA visa issued in london 29th August, I am due to enter this weekend , my wife with same visa due to enter 31 Oct can anyone tell me if they will refuse enter in the already issued visas as I don’t have the health insurance ?

My thinking is that in most cases they won't refuse entry but they won't give you one year permission to stay, instead they may give you 30-day visa exempt entry. In the worst case schenario, they may refuse you entry. 

[spambot]

29 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

You need to check with the embassy about your application. You may need proof of the insurance. 

This is now on the embassy website (it was not there yesterday). No mention of effective date I can find.

"Copy of evidence stating that applicants have insurance as stipulated by the Office of Insurance Commission and health insurance of Thailand which has insurance coverage for outpatient not less than 40,000 Baht and for inpatient not less than 400,000 Baht. Please check < http://longstay.tgia.org> for more information regarding the insurance requirement."

Source:  http://www.thaiembassy.org/london/en/services/7742/84508-Non-Immigrant-visas.html#7

Thanks for that UbonJoe - I looked at this same page yesterday and there was no Medical insurance requirement and as you have pointed out - It is now there today.

 

I did contact the Embassy by email yesterday and expect to get a response back latter today.

[onera1961]

35 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

How can they enforce something that was not in effect when the visa was issued. Are they going to deny a entry when using a visa that was issued 11 months ago?

There is no mention of the requirements being retroactive.

Sure they can deny entry. What are you going to do? As they deny entries to TV/METV holders based on not having money to live in Thailand, they can deny people based on not having money to live in Thailand (they cant buy insurance is implied). 

[AussieBob18]

I think I know exactly what this is all about - besides the xenophobia.  If you go to the website longstay.tgia.org you will see that the Insurance Companies listed are for both the 10 Years and the 1 Year O-A Retirement Visa.  I bet that there are not many applicants for the rip-off 10 year Visa and the insurance company owners have demanded they get more business or they will pull out (or call Uncle).  Maybe. But probably not far from the truth.

 

I also think that there is something to the claim about over 50s not paying hospital bills.  It is not the minor stuff, it is the long term Expats on retirement Visa who have no money (besides pension etc.) and they die in Thai hospitals, and the bills are not paid. There is a lot of them and palliative care can be very expensive (and if an Expat the bill would be high). Out of the 80,000 on O-A just this year who have been in Thailand for many years - there would be a lot who are here to have a last fling and just pass away - they dont give a rats about insurance.  I can remember once reading about how many did this in Chiang Mai when we lived there - it was a lot I thought at the time - and across all of Thailand it would be quite a few I think.

 

 

[AussieBob18]

I think that for those coming soon on an O-A Visa (or leaving and then coming back) that they should get a 12 months insurance policy to start from the date they enter Thailand.  The odds of the Thai Immigration officers at the airports/ports implementing this change correctly, are about the same as myself winning the Melbourne Cup.  Yes it could be a waste of money, but it may mean that you are not rejected at the airport.

 

If this is not an option for you, then I would try to find out what arrangements are in place for you to buy the required health insurance at the airport if the IO denies you entrance (and bring the extra money).  And stay patient and dont argue and smile and play dumb. 

 

Soemone suggested to buy a cheap insurance policy in your home country and 'fake' the Thai insurance certificate document (complete yourself). But I cannot say that idea is what I would think about doing. And unless you are a particularly good BS artist, then it is definitely not something I would ever recommended.

   

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

Using renew is really a incorrect word to use since it can have been used for so many things.

 

 

My point was, Joe, that when folks like the TGIA on their O-A health insurance info page start talking about the requirement applying when people "renew the visa," they are contributing to the confusion over whether the new reg is meant to apply only to actual O-A visa holders, or more broadly to retirement extensions.... Since as we both understand, you cannot "renew" any visa.

 

[ubonjoe]

1 hour ago, ThaiBob said:

I noticed the Thai Embassy in Los Angeles has not their website. 

 

Not shown on the embassy in DC's website either.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

One of the other apparent uncertainties over this new rule is just what kind of insurance policies will be deemed acceptable.

 

For example, I've had Thai medical insurance since the day I set foot in the country. And my insurer is one of those listed on the TGIA website for O-A insurance.

 

But, that insurer/my insurer has a particular set of policies offered on the TGIA website that are tailored specifically for the O-A requirements, meaning lower coverage amounts.  Whereas I have one of their regular general public health insurance policies with considerably higher limits (5M annually including outpatient coverage with no separate limit). But I've also opted for a 40,000 annual deductible in order to save on my premiums.

 

So the questions arise:

--will a general public Thai health policy like mine from a participating insurer be deemed acceptable were I to apply for an O-A visa, or does the insurance specifically have to be only one of those low coverage, high priced policies listed on the TGIA website?

--and, how would this new rule deal with general public Thai policies that have deductibles?  With a 5 million annual limit and included outpatient coverage, my policy far exceeds the limits of the O-A policies. But I've chosen to have it include a deductible. And the O-A specific policies seem to have no deductibles.

 

[Suradit69]

2 hours ago, onera1961 said:

Sure they can deny entry. What are you going to do? 

In the other thread you said it was clearly stated in the police order ...

 

Quote

That won't work becuase the police order clearly says entry will be dienied (no matter when the visa was granted). It also says, if the person is inside Thailand it is OK to not have a health insurance. 

But apparently it doesn't  say that clearly or otherwise and then you say you're reading between the lines.

 

Which is it?

 

Quote

  1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

Where does it say that?

It certainly does not state it is retroactive.

Every thing should not be spelled out. Only a court can decide what is legal or not legal if conflict arises. But it is said the IOs can deny entry. That is sufficient to empower IOs.