Longer term expat question -- have you burned your bridges or were they burned by others?

[Jingthing]

Don't burn your bridges is one of the classic expat clichés along with Thailand specific gems such as don't bring into Thailand any more than you can afford to leave in Thailand. 

I've said it to others myself.

 

Recently I posted about long term expats being advised not to burn your bridges with the comment that if you live abroad long enough it's not so much about actively burning them but bridges just fading away.

 

This video gives a contrarian probably more unusual take on that old cliché in that this guy gave up his U.S. citizenship.

 

What do you think? How are your bridges holding up?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Jingthing

[KneeDeep]

How about yours?

 

Odd that you would ask of others, something that won't give of yourself. Start the ball rolling....

[sirineou]

A very good subject and a lot to be argued about.

I am on the "don't burn your bridges camp" 

But the above posted video has very litle to offer on that subject other than "it is not unpatriotic to renounce your citizenship" with which I agree with,  as as long as you have a secure alternative citizenship.

 

[dimitriv]

36 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

This video gives a contrarian probably more unusual take on that old cliché in that this guy gave up his U.S. citizenship.

 

It's all about money. And this guy has enough.  If you have enough money, there are always solutions.

 

I often hear here that people just don't have enough money to go back. And that seems scary. Especially because legislation in Thailand changes too often and too quickly. You don't know when it will go wrong.

 

I must honestly say that the more I read about Thailand and politics, the less I trust the Thai government. It is not a basis on which you can build a future.

 

 

Edited October 25, 2019 by dimitriv

[sirineou]

In fact in the video he said. "even if you give up your citizenship you can get it back". If that's the case then you are not burning your bridges.  Then he goes on   to say  " if try to get your citizenship back . they might not give you  your social security or your medicare. but that's their problem not yours"  What nonsense!! that's certainly a big problem and it certainly your problem.

As it applies to as in Thailand, especially with all these Medical insurance requirements and the way it is structured at this time, all of those here on retirement will have to go back at a certain age when they cant get insurance. So IMO a bridge is necessary for this and many other reasons.

[taxout]

This is why I strongly suggest Americans pay the premium and keep Medicare Part B in effect. You never know when you might suddenly have to return.

 

Most other bridges are also financial. In particular, long-term expats tend not to be on the property ladder, and that can make returning to the US really difficult. Nobody wants to live in a trailer park.

 

Worse off are the very long-term expats who never got 40 quarters of Social Security paid in, and find themselves without Social Security pension or Medicare.

 

[gk10002000]

17 minutes ago, taxout said:

This is why I strongly suggest Americans pay the premium and keep Medicare Part B in effect. You never know when you might suddenly have to return.

 

Most other bridges are also financial. In particular, long-term expats tend not to be on the property ladder, and that can make returning to the US really difficult. Nobody wants to live in a trailer park.

 

Worse off are the very long-term expats who never got 40 quarters of Social Security paid in, and find themselves without Social Security pension or Medicare.

 

My parents pretty much always "owned" their own business.  A deli, a lounge, a restaurant, then another one.  This is the mid 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s.  Their accountant (s) always told them to not pay themselves much to avoid income taxes and also paying into social security.    A plausible plan, if one actually saves for retirement.  They did not.  They lived in debt, worked in debt, died in debt.  Dad got a measly $1,100 social security benefit.  I guess I thank them for implicitly showing me how not to do things.   So over the years I invested for income, dividends, interest etc., and can now punch out.  my starting social security if I start next year at 63 will be $2,000 a month.  My total income will be more than enough for a very comfortable lifestyle.   Next week I get fully vested in the company 401k matching contributions.  So if they don't transfer me back to tax free Florida, well, I may be back on the contract engineering market.  Which is funny because when I turned 50 it was hard to get a direct job as they were looking to hire young so I fell into contracting and made a ton.  Now I am finishing up a 3 year salary stint because they really did make me a strong offer and medical was so cheap compared to what Obamacare was going to hammer me as an independent individual.  Now, I am looking for contract work (DOD aerospace stuff) but I am getting my phone rung off the hook for direct jobs because they all need experienced people!  Times do change

 

  My plan since 2004 (my first visit to Thailand) always was to semi-retire there.  There is so much of the country and neighboring countries to still see and experience.  I was planning on getting the retirement visa(s) for convenience as I come and go from the country. But between TM 30, 90 day reporting, the inane USA income verification letters gone and replaced with forced money transfers monthly, Thailand is just not glowing at the moment.  Still planning on a 60 day SETV and then a 30 day extension to feel out if I really want to hang there as much as before.  I could spring for that Elite visa, but I will a bit and see how this medical fiasco pans out.  I was planning on getting some Thai medical anyway, just to be on the safe side, but those plans on the tgia site for Non OA visas were poor.  I will hold off on any big moves for a while.

[scubascuba3]

Maybe op should define "don't burn your bridges" it probably has different meanings to different people

[RichardColeman]

Sorry, but this guy maybe speaks for the top 1% of society not the rest  and his video should come with a potential health warning !

 

Start of the video he talks about opportunity to come back - but, burning bridges to me means selling everything you own, having either split or being not close to family and putting all your eggs in the foreign basket.

 

Having the opportunity to go back after that goes wrong is very different from Mr. Hi-so. Going back to a cardboard box on the streets of snowy London is different from his life.

 

I (55) live in Thailand with my wife and child now, I own a house in the UK south and get a small pension - I will return some day later in life.

 

I feel more relaxed knowing that I have NOT burned my bridges in life. 

 

 

 

[luckyluke]

I left Belgium in 2002, meaning I have no assets anymore there. 

 

I have a state pension (we all have in Belgium ) now of 2595 gross or 2244 Euro net, monthly. 

 

In May 1000 Euro net more (holiday allowance). 

 

The difference between gross & net is taxes, social security, solidarity contribution. 

 

So despite having left Belgium, there is no really a "bridge burning". 

 

If I return to Belgium, nothing will change, I just have to inform government I am back, and let  my new adress known. 

 

It can be however "expensive";

in Flanders now, one has to pay 3 month guarantee, and 1 month rent in advance before been able to enter the rented apartment. 

 

[1FinickyOne]

Interesting take on a cliched expression that I never quite fully understood... did it mean 'don't sell your house?' or 'don't tell your friends to <deleted> off'

 

owning a house would be an unneeded expense... giving up family and friends is silly... personally it has never even crossed my mind to give up my citizenship... 

 

But I see it more as having built new bridges [home and family], in a place I want to be... 

[sirineou]

Just now, kenk24 said:

Interesting take on a cliched expression that I never quite fully understood... did it mean 'don't sell your house?' or 'don't tell your friends to <deleted> off'

 

owning a house would be an unneeded expense... giving up family and friends is silly... personally it has never even crossed my mind to give up my citizenship... 

 

But I see it more as having built new bridges [home and family], in a place I want to be... 

To me it means not to sell your house, or if you do, invest the funds in a safe investment vehicle and dont touch it, so that if needed you can comeback and buy another.

People sell their houses and come to Thailand build a McMansion  buy an expensive SUV and don't work then if something happens and they need to go back, they cant liquidate their assets , and by that time things back home have become much more expensive since they left anyway , and they are trapped in Thailand or cant return to the same lifestyle they left. 

Also keep in touch with family and friends, sucks to be old and not have anyone.

[4MyEgo]

Living in the LOS since 2015 is what I call my permanent holiday, or affordable retirement at 55 years of age, I contribute to the Thai economy, and it provides me with shelter.

 

Sold my asset back in Oz in 2016 as I would have had to pay 1/3rd of the rental income from the rent received to the tax man, no usual Australian taxpayer threshold because of the "forced" residency status change under the legislation for tax purposes, i.e. after 183 days absent your residency status changes, others can argue that, but not interested, done my due diligence thanks, plus full capital gains tax with there being no 50% discount on the future sale of the asset, Vs reinvesting the sale proceeds of the asset into the stock market and paying no tax or capital gains tax, suffice to say, the property market back in Sydney has dropped a minimum 20% since the sale, so you could say the government did me a favor.

 

It's cost me about 2,000 baht a week to survive here for a family of 6 with the money invested in the stock market, now try living in Sydney on a $100 a week........lol

 

Moving here has been good, i.e. 90% of the time, the other 10% or greater depending on how you perceive it, e.g. education, corruption, lack of police presence, immigration, smoke from burning of rice/sugarcane fields, pesticides, and the list goes on, but overall, I would never jump ship, because you cannot compare Australia to Thailand, because we know which one wins hands down, that said living here is very affordable, suites me at present, but things could change from either side, that said, if I had to jump ship tomorrow, my Australian Citizenship is my gold pass back.

Edited October 26, 2019 by 4MyEgo

[oobar]

I didn't burn my bridges, but after 34 years in LOS they appear to have rotted and collapsed. 

[Jingthing]

I didn't burn my bridges, but after 34 years in LOS they appear to have rotted and collapsed. 

Yep that would tend to happen and it usually wouldn't take that long.

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[giddyup]

I would consider I burned my bridges when I left Oz 10 years ago. Sold the house I'd lived in for 25 years, struck myself off the electoral roll, moved to Thailand and never been back. At my age (77) it wouldn't be easy to move back, I'm probably priced out of the real estate market now as well, but I don't have any regrets about my decision.

[Rockhopper]

Yep, I burned my bridges and this is how I will leave Thailand:

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, giddyup said:

I would consider I burned my bridges when I left Oz 10 years ago. Sold the house I'd lived in for 25 years, struck myself off the electoral roll, moved to Thailand and never been back. At my age (77) it wouldn't be easy to move back, I'm probably priced out of the real estate market now as well, but I don't have any regrets about my decision.

Unless you are forced back. at which point I ams sure you will regret your decision.

I sincerely hope that does not happen, because judging from  always reasonable and compassionate posts I think you are probably a very nice person . 

It is  a tough choice to make and chance to take.

I have a nice house build in Thailand free and clear,  own a modest car also free and clear. and lill have a comfortable pension.

  If I liquidate our assets in the US we would end up with a tidy sum and could live like a king for the remainder of my life in Thailand ,. 

It is very tempting . 

But I am almost 63 an if I am lucky a long way to go until I kick the proverbial bucket. These are interesting times.Does one hitch his cart on the Thailand horse without alternate transportation?

[CNXexpat]

What do you mean with "burned bridges"? The private one or the financial one? Sorry, I am a non-native English speaker.
 

Private: With some of my friends I have lost the contact during the years in Thailand. But with my family and some friends I still telephone or chat regular and try to visit them when I am in Germany for vacation.

Financial: In many years I will get a pension, I have 3 life insurences they will be paid out during the next years. I still have 2 stock depots in Europe from where I receive my dividends and where I am trading to live in Thailand. 

 

If I have to leave Thailand for some reason tomorrow I have enough money to go to another country like Vietnam to live there.

[AlexRich]

The difficulty begins when someone starts a family and settles in Thailand. It’s a bit more difficult to return home when you have family ties ... and returning means having to prove that you can support a family ... not so easy for a pensioner. If immigration rules tighten further many will find themselves caught between a rock and a hard place.

[madmen]

8 hours ago, luckyluke said:

t can be however "expensive";

in Flanders now, one has to pay 3 month guarantee, and 1 month rent in advance before been able to enter the rented apartment.

Air bnb has made expensive rental contracts obsolete. All that's needed to unburn back to oz is silly cheap air Asia flight plus 1st month air bnb payment

 

Posters saying people are stuck here are being a bit dramatic

[Jingthing]

This is why I strongly suggest Americans pay the premium and keep Medicare Part B in effect. You never know when you might suddenly have to return.

 

Most other bridges are also financial. In particular, long-term expats tend not to be on the property ladder, and that can make returning to the US really difficult. Nobody wants to live in a trailer park.

 

Worse off are the very long-term expats who never got 40 quarters of Social Security paid in, and find themselves without Social Security pension or Medicare.

 

No problem with anything you said but I will speak a bit about bridges being burned that have nothing to do with your own actions and intentions.

 

As in your post perhaps rather American centric.

 

I now no longer have a US drivers license. That wasn't really intentional but it eventually just happened.

 

I don't have a Thai one either but I don't need to drive here.

 

In case of moving back to the US that can mean an extremely difficult life without state ID and ability to drive.

 

Sure you can try to get reestablished but not always easily.

 

Why did it happen? Did I want to lose it? No. If of course not. But keeping it current with the new real ID requirements at least in my state made that almost impossible. If I could have gotten past that with some games then I would have had to sign a document stating I'm a state resident but obviously I'm not. Isn't that a felony?

 

Banks brokerages etc.

Numerous hassles over the years dealing with US firms as a non resident. Generally faking being a resident but they have ways of smoking people out and it's actually their job to do that based on know your customer laws.

 

Did I burn those bridges on purpose?

No. They burned most of them for me.

 

Housing. Yeah I know many people do but it never occurred to me to consider owning US housing while living abroad. So definitely off that ladder. I do own a Thai condo which is more of a burden than anything if I wanted to leave. Hasn't risen in theoretical value, very hard to sell, and possibly hard to repatriate the money.

 

Social security. Yeah I'm on it now. As expats they can make it quite hard to get that started and continuing. We've got those proof of life letters. That can sometimes be a shaky bridge. I'm considering moving to another country with almost nonexistent mail service. That would mean every year a big drama with proof of life with almost likely suspensions. That's a potentially burned bridge coming externally not by intention.

 

 

 

 

 

[Jingthing]

Yep, I burned my bridges and this is how I will leave Thailand:

Ouch. That's a different kind of burning.

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[Jingthing]

What do you mean with "burned bridges"? The private one or the financial one? Sorry, I am a non-native English speaker.
 
Private: With some of my friends I have lost the contact during the years in Thailand. But with my family and some friends I still telephone or chat regular and try to visit them when I am in Germany for vacation.

Financial: In many years I will get a pension, I have 3 life insurences they will be paid out during the next years. I still have 2 stock depots in Europe from where I receive my dividends and where I am trading to live in Thailand. 
 
If I have to leave Thailand for some reason tomorrow I have enough money to go to another country like Vietnam to live there.

What do I mean?
It's more of an open ended concept.
It means different things to different people.

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[GalaxyMan]

14 hours ago, dimitriv said:

I must honestly say that the more I read about Thailand and politics, the less I trust the Thai government.

I'm still waiting for some condition to arise which would allow me to have any trust in the Thai government.

[Laza 45]

8 minutes ago, GalaxyMan said:

I'm still waiting for some condition to arise which would allow me to have any trust in the Thai government.

I'm still waiting for some condition to arise which would allow me to have trust in ANY government.. 

[Jingthing]

Sorry, but this guy maybe speaks for the top 1% of society not the rest  and his video should come with a potential health warning !
 
Start of the video he talks about opportunity to come back - but, burning bridges to me means selling everything you own, having either split or being not close to family and putting all your eggs in the foreign basket.
 
Having the opportunity to go back after that goes wrong is very different from Mr. Hi-so. Going back to a cardboard box on the streets of snowy London is different from his life.
 
I (55) live in Thailand with my wife and child now, I own a house in the UK south and get a small pension - I will return some day later in life.
 
I feel more relaxed knowing that I have NOT burned my bridges in life. 
 
 
 

Yeah the Nomad Capitalist'a obvious target audience is very wealthy expat.
entrepreneurs or aspiring ones.

But as someone who is definitely nothing like that I find many pearls of thought provoking content in his videos that do apply to me and I think could to others as well.

Like his marketing catchphrase go where you're treated best.

Many of us rich or not are attracted to living abroad for some of the benefits the foreign place offers that home does not.

One example US vs. Thailand is prescription meds. Much more expensive in the US and most things by scrip only. Thailand and many other countries treat us better with that.

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[Lacessit]

I wouldn't say I've "burned my bridges". 75% of my assets are still back in Australia, earning income. I go back there every six months for free medical checks, as I am somewhat leery of Thai doctors.

IMHO the patriotism angle would only occur to an American. I agree it makes sense to go somewhere you feel you are treated better. If Thailand fails me in that respect, there are other options available. While the Thai immigration system is patently ridiculous, it can be navigated with careful preparation.

I think the friends I still have back in Australia secretly envy my lifestyle. My GF is 24 years younger than me, whereas they have wives in their age bracket. I know several with partners who are battling Alzheimers', while other marriages are held together only by the terror of what will ensue if the assets get split under family law.

One of the big reasons for becoming an expat was the feeling I was stagnating in Australia, just waiting to die.

Here, I have new friends as well, and I am living a better life.

 

 

[giddyup]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

Unless you are forced back. at which point I ams sure you will regret your decision.

I sincerely hope that does not happen, because judging from  always reasonable and compassionate posts I think you are probably a very nice person . 

It is  a tough choice to make and chance to take.

I have a nice house build in Thailand free and clear,  own a modest car also free and clear. and lill have a comfortable pension.

  If I liquidate our assets in the US we would end up with a tidy sum and could live like a king for the remainder of my life in Thailand ,. 

It is very tempting . 

But I am almost 63 an if I am lucky a long way to go until I kick the proverbial bucket. These are interesting times.Does one hitch his cart on the Thailand horse without alternate transportation?

If I'm forced to go back I'd survive, probably just rent a small condo. You have to play with whatever cards life deals you.

[khunPer]

We are some expats that can always return home, and survive at home – myself included – as government or social security will step in; however, we might need to find a way to get back ourselves. So in that way, bridges are not totally burned.

 

But bridges can be burned in other ways, apart from the most basic financials. There could be both no reason to return – no family or close friends – and a reduced living standard compared to Thailand, mainly due to some countries has higher livings costs in certain areas, like heating, which reduce anything else left to cover for the most basic need only.

 

In a way, some – if not many – of us expats might be kind of financial refuges...????

 

I did not burn my bridges theoretically, meaning: that I'm not due any unpaid stuff or taxes back home, so I can always return; that I can receive full government retirement pension if returning, and that's more than they give me when living abroad, but summing pros and cons it might relative equal up; that I can reassign to my home country's free healthcare system; and that I kept little savings abroad, which I might be able to keep for an unscheduled return due to emergency, or whatever other reason.

 

So theoretically not that totally bad off, if I should leave Land-of-Smiles, and everything I have here behind me.

 

But I would regret to return, as I mentally have burned the bridges. No family ties, and even I have good friends back home – I'm sure they would stretch a long way to help me if I needed to return – there is a limit of what I would ask for. Furthermore, I see many of my good friends here, as they like to visit Thailand – some of them I even see more of, than I ever did when living in our mutual home country.

 

Physically I moved out, brought my stuff here – or rather what had meaning, and sentimental meaning, to bring with me – and I "invested" a major part of my savings here, including building kind of dream-house; well, being the affordable version instead of a manor or a castle. Furthermore I have my family here, a lovely girlfriend and our mutual child, my only heir.

 

To be realistic I often check my possibilities for returning – not worst case scenario, but pretending I get about my invested savings with me, which is not totally unrealistic for a timely planned exit – looking at what house, or property, I could afford back home for my savings, and especially the location; different life-style form form here, and what I could afford in daily needs. Furthermore, my home country has changed since I did the move in 2005, so it's not like returning into a past time warp. Every time I check, I end up with that I have a much, much better life here in LoS, than I can expect to find if returning to my home country.

 

So for me a combination of burned bridges, some I lit myself, and some might be considered as burned by others...????