Transfering 800k bhat via Transferwise--not a good experience

[Skeptic7]

On 10/29/2019 at 12:49 PM, OZinPattaya said:

You're correct, I did not. I'm not sure if it would mean anything anyway. The mere fact that the first transfer shows as FT doesn't mean any of the others will, a point I explicitly brought up to Transferwise and they confirmed.

Absolutely correct. The coding can and has been different for transfers from same US bank to same Thai bank. 

[Max69xl]

On 10/29/2019 at 8:42 PM, OZinPattaya said:

A good point about sending USD. Does the USD then get converted by the Thai bank instead? Does this happen automatically? I'm not too clear on this. Thanks!

You never send THB from your home bank. If you do, you will lose money in both ends. 

[Max69xl]

28 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

Absolutely correct. The coding can and has been different for transfers from same US bank to same Thai bank. 

You must choose correct reason for the transfer:

"Funds for long term stay in Thailand"

TW has 3 bank partners in Thailand, Bangkok Bank, Kasikorn Bank and Thai Military Bank. 

Banking with other thai banks can be a problem if it's important that the transfers shows up as foreign = FTT in the bank book.  

Immigration has started to learn that transfers doesn't always shows up as foreign even if they are. That's why the bank letter and statements from the thai bank is important when applying for a retirement visa using the >65k monthly method. 

People seems to forget that the main reason for using TW is lower fees, higher rates and faster transfers. Don't blame them just because immigration requires a certain type of transfer. 

[blorg]

You can look up the US tax treaty here, Article 20:

 

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/thailand.pdf

 

Social security is specifically exempted and is only to be taxed in the US. There is also an exemption for child support- that is not to be taxed in Thailand. Everything else, under the treaty, including annuities and private pensions, should be, in theory, taxed in Thailand. They also have stated on the Thai tax website that foreign pensions are taxable. Thailand doesn't enforce this at the moment, on Americans or anyone else. Why I don't know.

[Max69xl]

13 minutes ago, blorg said:

You can look up the US tax treaty here, Article 20:

 

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/thailand.pdf

 

Social security is specifically exempted and is only to be taxed in the US. There is also an exemption for child support- that is not to be taxed in Thailand. Everything else, under the treaty, including annuities and private pensions, should be, in theory, taxed in Thailand. They also have stated on the Thai tax website that foreign pensions are taxable. Thailand doesn't enforce this at the moment, on Americans or anyone else. Why I don't know.

The reason is bi-lateral agreements between Thailand and almost every western country to avoid double taxation when retired. It means you don't pay taxes in 2 countries, just in your home country. 

[Suradit69]

8 hours ago, blorg said:

@JimGant Bangkok Bank New York is going away. They keep shifting the turn off date forward but they have repeatedly said they will be rejecting domestic ACH payments so it's not an option any more for most people.

 

The cheapest method for larger amounts right now, I think is actually Transferwise but sending USD and having Bangkok Bank convert it. You ACH (for free) into TW, TW charge a little over $4 for the transfer, it is sent by SWIFT and then Bangkok Bank convert it. It works basically exactly the same as a Bangkok Bank New York transfer except TW's $4 fee is lower than Bangkok Bank New York's fee was.

Well Bangkok Bank NY will still be available  for direct deposits from some US Government departments if the necessary arrangements have been made.

 

I still use Bangkok Bank NY as the correspondent bank for SWIFT transfers to my account at Bangkok Bank in Thailand. Bangkok Bank seems to charge the same amount as they did before for domestic ACH transfers, but my broker charges me a small fee that they didn't do for the ACH transfer. When the deposit arrives in Thailand I get an SMS detailing  the exchange rate used, the fees charged in NY and Thailand, the net amount deposited here and the account balance following the transfer.

 

I still prefer going through BKK NY since I know the money will appear in my account  with the foreign transfer notation in my bank book dependably.

 

 

 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Suradit69

[LivinLOS]

9 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

False and untrue.

But maybe it applies to UK.  Not US...

Depends on the source if the pensions are taxable.. 

 

UK and most euro pensions,  even ss ones are pre tax and hence taxable for people in country >180 data a calendar year.  

 

A point I have long argued here. The fact they currently don't chase it does not mean that they will always be so lax.  

[LivinLOS]

5 hours ago, Max69xl said:

The reason is bi-lateral agreements between Thailand and almost every western country to avoid double taxation when retired. It means you don't pay taxes in 2 countries, just in your home country. 

When you are resident 180 days a year,  Thailand is your 'home country' and the DTA would allow you to claim any withholding taxes back from the country you are no longer resident in.  

 

Of course for many that freezes the pension from inflation protection and may cause loss of access to national health care on return.  

[ChrisY1]

For what it's worth, my CC account has been compromised ($2018) and TW was the recipient....bank is investigating and the outcome will be interesting.

[StevieAus]

On 10/29/2019 at 7:16 PM, OZinPattaya said:

I don't think they like western retirees either, especially early-retirees. If you look younger than an octogenarian, and are foolish enough to disclose retirement as your justification for opening a Thai bank account, they think you must be up to no good. My advice, tell the banker that you need to open a bank account to pay for a condo, or some such.

 

Certainly not my experience with the Bangkok Bank when I retired here well before the “normal” retirement age I was far from being an octogenarian and still am.

I found the bank more than helpful and still are when providing letters for such things as the retirement extension.

Perhaps here in the North there are fewer people up to “no good” than in Pattaya

 

[tjinks]

I have made transfers from 2 different US banks using Transferwise to Bangkok Bank. Sometimes they are coded as international, other times as local transfer. No rhyme or reason as to what's happening. Maybe SWIFT is the only guaranteed method to show an international transfer?

[jacko45k]

15 hours ago, Unify said:

It's my understanding that immigration doesn't need to see the 800,000 coded as a foreign transfer. That's only for the income method.

Unless you plan to  use it to convert a Tourist Visa or Visa Exempt Entry to that of a Non-Imm-O, in preparation to applying for a retirement extension. 

[JDGRUEN]

To: OP... I head up a Facebook Group of what is now over 600 TransferWise Users in Thailand. We function as a TW Users Group.

As I have posted before more than once on TVF, my Group Members have run extensive testing of transfers using the standard TW method. We found that the proper labeling on transfer deposits from abroad into Thailand as an International Transfer Deposit in the account register and encoding as FTT in a Bankbook update printout for that same transfer. This is the case 100% of the time - IF - the receiving bank account is a Bangkok Bank Account. AND - if the TW user chooses the Option "Reason for Sending" "Funds for Long Term Stay in THAILAND". 

 

HOWEVER:This only works for a Bangkok Bank Account -

 

This DOES NOT work for any other Thai banks. You can get FETs from the first Thai Bank that received the incoming foreign transfer (Foreign Exchange Transaction)... This is also proof of an International Transfer. 

 

My FB Group is TransferWise Solutions. 

 

Also, please note that while the Monthly Income of 65K has to be shown  labeled as an International Transfer and encoded as FTT (Foreign Telegraphic Transfer)... 

To the best of my knowledge the 800,000 Cash in the Bank does not have to be proven to be an International Transfer Perhaps others can verify this. 

[Sheryl]

16 hours ago, JimGant said:

Huh? Except for government pensions and social security, other forms of US pension payments, to include Traditional IRAs, that are paid into Thailand in year distributed are subject to priority Thai taxation. Should they ever take advantage of this, you the Yank will be subject to the same overall taxation as if the Thais hadn't taken advantage of this treaty language (unless, somehow, you're in a higher Thai tax bracket than US....). Accomplished, of course, by giving tax credits against US tax obligations.

 

But, Thailand apparently implemented this "not in year earned" option as a bonus to hi so Thais, with earnings abroad. But in the unlikely scenario that this should change, why would you, the Yank, care? You'll pay the same amount in taxes -- but now some of those taxes will help your country of residence, not some food stamp recipient in the States.

 

By defininition most of an IRA distribution was earned in prior years.

[wgdanson]

Just a little off topic, but relevant. I needed Bht 20,000 urgently this morning. Transferwise would cost £517.39 and take 24 hours, transfer from my Bkk Foreign Currency account...£517.69 immediately. OK, the past cost of getting those GBP to my FCA might be a bit more, but it's done & dusted now.

[blorg]

13 hours ago, Max69xl said:

The reason is bi-lateral agreements between Thailand and almost every western country to avoid double taxation when retired. It means you don't pay taxes in 2 countries, just in your home country. 

I mean I linked the treaty. That's not what the treaty says. The treaty says by default you pay tax in the country of your residence. That's Thailand if you are here over 180 days a year. Then it lists specific exemptions- in the case of the US, that's social security and child support- they are taxed in the US and not Thailand.

[blorg]

19 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

Just a little off topic, but relevant. I needed Bht 20,000 urgently this morning. Transferwise would cost £517.39 and take 24 hours, transfer from my Bkk Foreign Currency account...£517.69 immediately. OK, the past cost of getting those GBP to my FCA might be a bit more, but it's done & dusted now.

This is mental accounting, you are just ignoring the cost of actually moving the money into Thailand in the first place. This could have been anything between £15-50 from your UK bank. Plus a receiving fee from the Thai one. The only thing that matters is the total cost, it is meaningless (and fooling yourself) to just take out part of the equation and compare that only.

[wgdanson]

1 minute ago, blorg said:

This is mental accounting, you are just ignoring the cost of actually moving the money into Thailand in the first place. This could have been anything between £15-50 from your UK bank. Plus a receiving fee from the Thai one. The only thing that matters is the total cost, it is meaningless (and fooling yourself) to just take out part of the equation and compare that only.

Did I not say in my post 'the past cost of getting those GBP to my FCA might be a bit more' ? I was only saying for an emergency situation. I am NOT fooling myself, I know how things work here.

[JESSVANPELT]

I have used TRANSFERWISE to transfer 800,000 baht plus from My USA checking account directly into my Bangkok Bank account, and it was no problem simple and the money arrived in less then 30 hours. The transfer did show up as a international transfer.

I also send smaller amounts over monthly using the same method and all has been perfect.

 I believe your bank or type of account may have restrictions.

 

I also have at least 6 friends from the Sates that use the same service and they have never had a problem.

I transfer from a checking savings account, and it appears your using a debit account? that may be the issue

Edited October 31, 2019 by JESSVANPELT
additional info

[Max69xl]

8 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

Depends on the source if the pensions are taxable.. 

 

UK and most euro pensions,  even ss ones are pre tax and hence taxable for people in country >180 data a calendar year.  

 

A point I have long argued here. The fact they currently don't chase it does not mean that they will always be so lax.  

You're wrong. Everything is about double tax agreements between Thailand and other countries. If you are retired and come from one of those countries,you always pay tax in your home country, NEVER in Thailand. It has nothing to do with >180 days out of your country. Get your facts straight. 

[blorg]

11 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

Did I not say in my post 'the past cost of getting those GBP to my FCA might be a bit more' ? I was only saying for an emergency situation. I am NOT fooling myself, I know how things work here.

So why compare those two numbers? It's apples and oranges. It's a totally meaningless comparison that ignores most of the cost involved.

[blorg]

Just now, Max69xl said:

You're wrong. Everything is about double tax agreements between Thailand and other countries. If you are retired and come from one of those countries,you always pay tax in your home country, NEVER in Thailand. It has nothing to do with >180 days out of your country. Get your facts straight. 

De facto this is the case, you are right. Thailand don't tax retirees.

 

De jure, it is not actually what is written in the double tax agreements if you read them. Thailand is entitled to tax retired people here by default, excepting specific types of income as laid out in the double tax agreements (such as social security paid by the government in the US). I know they don't, but they are entitled to. They just don't follow it up for some reason. This could change.

[JESSVANPELT]

On 10/30/2019 at 9:01 AM, digbeth said:

There's actually extra paperwork with tax compliance if Amerians open bank account in Thailand

Absolutely incorrect, Im American . I opened my account at Bangkok bank the same day my English friend did and we both were required the same documentation, And at no time was I asked to give my US social security number which is the only thing that would link me to a USA tax situation. 

 

[wgdanson]

1 minute ago, blorg said:

So why compare those two numbers? It's apples and oranges. It's a totally meaningless comparison that ignores most of the cost involved.

OK, it cost me £20 Swift to get over Bht 800,000 into my FCA, plus Bht 500 at this end, so it cost me about 30 quid.The proportion of that for Bht 20,000 is negligible.

[JimGant]

57 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

 

By defininition most of an IRA distribution was earned in prior years.

Yeah, but we're concerned here about when this deferred income is distributed -- and regards Thailand, whether or not this distribution was brought into Thailand in same year distributed (not in same year earned).

 

The subject of taxing IRAs by one's country of residence was dealt with in a ruling at the highest level of the IRS. The country in question was Switzerland, but its treaty with the US is nearly identical to the Thai-US tax treaty (both follow the OECD model). Bottom line in the finding was that, yes, Switzerland gets first priority in taxing a US expat's IRA distribution; but due to the "saving clause," the expat must also file a US tax return -- and take a credit for taxes paid to Switzerland. Here's the link to the ruling:

https://hodgen.com/ira-distribution-to-u-s-citizen-living-in-switzerland-which-country-taxes-it/

 

A certain US tax "professional" claims the "saving clause" doesn't apply to IRA distributions to US expats residing in Thailand. And, if not distributed to Thailand in same year paid out, no Thai tax either. Thus, move to Thailand for 180 days every year, have this guy file your tax return, and don't pay a nickel on your 6-figure IRA. Apparently, a lot of folks are doing this -- and nobody at the IRS is familiar the Swiss precedent. Anyway, old news. Go to this thread, beginning with post #25:

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1008555-tax-specialist-in-chiang-mai/

 

[Max69xl]

40 minutes ago, blorg said:

I mean I linked the treaty. That's not what the treaty says. The treaty says by default you pay tax in the country of your residence. That's Thailand if you are here over 180 days a year. Then it lists specific exemptions- in the case of the US, that's social security and child support- they are taxed in the US and not Thailand.

We are talking about pensions. There's no treaties, just double tax agreements between countries. If a country has a double tax agreement with Thailand,you always pay tax on your pension in your home country or where you resided permanently. Never in Thailand. If paranoid authorities in the US reasons differently, that has nothing to do with other western countries. 

[lopburi3]

4 minutes ago, JESSVANPELT said:

Absolutely incorrect, Im American . I opened my account at Bangkok bank the same day my English friend did and we both were required the same documentation, And at no time was I asked to give my US social security number which is the only thing that would link me to a USA tax situation. 

 

Actually Bangkok Bank should obtain your SSN for any account set up in last year or so - but as usual not everyone got that memo.  Also if at any time during the year your total holdings are more than $10,000 you must report all accounts/address/holding each year (FBAR) regardless of any bank reporting.

[blorg]

5 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

OK, it cost me £20 Swift to get over Bht 800,000 into my FCA, plus Bht 500 at this end, so it cost me about 30 quid.The proportion of that for Bht 20,000 is negligible.

£20+500B is not a neglibile proportion of 20,000. It's quite significant. While if you are comparing a 800,000B transfer with a 20,000B transfer you are again comparing apples and oranges. This only serves to obfuscate the true costs. And if you had the money already in Thailand you can't compare with the situation where you didn't have the money in Thailand. I could as well say I had 20,000 in another Thai account which I transferred last month and I transferred that into my Bangkok Bank account- for free! Beat that.

[GalaxyMan]

9 minutes ago, JESSVANPELT said:

Absolutely incorrect, Im American . I opened my account at Bangkok bank the same day my English friend did and we both were required the same documentation, And at no time was I asked to give my US social security number which is the only thing that would link me to a USA tax situation. 

 

Not the case with CIMB or SCB. They required me to fill in US Tax forms, providing my SS#.

[wgdanson]

Just now, blorg said:

£20+500B is not a neglibile proportion of 20,000. It's quite significant. While if you are comparing a 800,000B transfer with a 20,000B transfer you are again comparing apples and oranges. This only serves to obfuscate the true costs. And if you had the money already in Thailand you can't compare with the situation where you didn't have the money in Thailand. I could as well say I had 20,000 in another Thai account which I transferred last month and I transferred that into my Bangkok Bank account- for free! Beat that.

Bht 20,000 is 2.5% of 800,000. So my thinking is that 2.5% of £30 is negligible.