Visa woes

[ananda23]

Hello everyone,

 

I´m having a bit of a visa problem and would like your opinions and/or suggestions. I´ve been living in Thailand for close to ten years now on a variety of visa types (tourist/student/business). Since closing my former business last year I went back to using tourist visas/visa exemption stamps without any problems. Early this year my passport ran out of pages so I went back to my native Germany to get a new one. Went back to Thailand in late February and did a few visa runs to Myanmar and Laos since. I first ran into a bit of trouble a little over 2 months ago when I went to Vientiane for a visa run. I´d gotten a 60 day single entry tourist visa there many times before so I didn´t think there would be any problems. I was denied a 60 day tourist visa (when I handed in the paperwork I was asked to show 20k Baht which I didn´t have with me (didn´t bring my atm card either as I´d never been asked to show cash before. Stupid move, I should´ve known better)). As I´d also already done 2 land border crossings I couldn´t just go back and get a 30 day stamp either so I was stuck in Laos. Eventually I met someone with connections to the border and thus managed to get a third 30 day stamp. I extended this for another 30 days at the always friendly Chiang Mai immigration office with no problems. A little over a week ago when my extension was about to run out I thought it would be a good idea to just fly to Hong Kong for a couple of days, thinking it would still be ok to get a 30 day stamp when flying in. Turns out I was wrong. At Chiang Mai airport I was denied entry because I´d been in the country on a tourist visa for close to 8 months at that time. I sat down with the head guy and he suggested flying to Kuala Lumpur to get a 60 day tourist visa there. Sounded weird since being on a tourist visa for too long seemed to be the problem in the first place but who am I to question the head of immigration. So off to KL I went, successfully got said visa and flew back, to Bangkok this time (maybe this was a mistake in hindsight). I was denied entry and promptly sent back to KL yet again. Luckily I at least wasn´t blacklisted. Left with no other option I flew back to Germany where I am now. I already went to the Thai embassy and explained my situation there. I am now awaiting a response from them. 

I´m about to start a new business but it will take another month or two to set up a proper Thai limited company. I really should be back in Thailand in order to get the business set up. So my question to the specialists is, what are my options at this point? Is it possible to get a non-immigrant B visa before one has set up the company? With all the new biometric stuff (fingerprints etc.) am I right in assuming that just getting a new passport won´t solve my problem? I am starting the business with my Thai gf of 10 years so if all else fails I guess marriage would be an option (even though I don´t believe in marriage and would like to avoid it if at all possible). How quickly can one get a visa in order to get married and what´s the process? Are there any other visa options? Transit visa maybe? As I said my business project will be ready to be set up soon so I just need a solution for 2 months. Any advice would be highly appreciated. 

[mockingbird]

Things have changed quite a bit recently, which you obviously we not aware of.

 

With a visa, you would almost certainly of had no problems flying into Chiang Mai. It's flying in on visa exempt that got you refused.

 

Once you got your visa in KL, you should of flown back into Chiang mai, or crossed using a land border. With your history, you would need to avoid both Bangkok airports, as they have clamped down on admitting long stayers on tourist visa's/visa exempts, irregardless of whether you have a visa or not.

 

Good luck.

[ananda23]

1 minute ago, mockingbird said:

Once you got your visa in KL, you should of flown back into Chiang mai, or crossed using a land border. With your history, you would need to avoid both Bangkok airports, as they have clamped down on admitting long stayers on tourist visa's/visa exempts, irregardless of whether you have a visa or not.

I still have the (unused) 60 day single entry tourist visa I just got in KL in my passport. So you think I might get in flying into Chiang Mai or using a land border?

[marcus111]

After reading your post I do not think that you are in any position to return to Thailand at any point in the future.

You clearly lack funds to stay long term here.

Stay home and plan for a future later in life in the LOS.

Shoe string budgets are not an option now..!!!!!!

[mockingbird]

23 minutes ago, ananda23 said:

I still have the (unused) 60 day single entry tourist visa I just got in KL in my passport. So you think I might get in flying into Chiang Mai or using a land border?

There's been no reported incidents of anybody with a tourist visa being denied entry via Chiang mai airport, hence why the immigration officer told you to go to KL and get a visa. 

 

At most land borders you would have no problem (except for Poipet in Cambodia). Just make sure you have 20,000 baht in cash on you (or in equivalent currency). Hotel bookings and return flight if you can too.

[orchis]

I would fly into Chiangmai, which I did last week on a METV via Chenzhen and did on 3 previous occasions on a SETV from KL.
Southern land borders would also work imo. Prepare the 3 proofs (cash, reservation, onward flight) although I have never been asked for them, I just got stamped in without discussion. Good Luck.

[ananda23]

55 minutes ago, marcus111 said:

After reading your post I do not think that you are in any position to return to Thailand at any point in the future.

You clearly lack funds to stay long term here.

Stay home and plan for a future later in life in the LOS.

Shoe string budgets are not an option now..!!!!!!

While I have the vast majority of my funds invested in my soon to open business (a resort), I do have money left. It´s not like I would struggle to show 20k Baht if that´s what you think. I just didn´t bring any significant amount of cash with me when I went to Vientiane a couple of months ago because I was never asked to show money before.

[ananda23]

49 minutes ago, orchis said:

I would fly into Chiangmai, which I did last week on a METV via Chenzhen and did on 3 previous occasions on a SETV from KL.
Southern land borders would also work imo. Prepare the 3 proofs (cash, reservation, onward flight) although I have never been asked for them, I just got stamped in without discussion. Good Luck.

Were these 4 entries consecutive? When you flew in last week how long had you been staying on tourist visas already? I´m temped to try flying into Chiang Mai but would hate to get rejected again and having to fly back to Germany.

[orchis]

6 minutes ago, ananda23 said:

Were these 4 entries consecutive? When you flew in last week how long had you been staying on tourist visas already? I´m temped to try flying into Chiang Mai but would hate to get rejected again and having to fly back to Germany.

I had two visa exempts previously in 2019, but what surprised me in Chiangmai was that he just checked my name and not my 22 (!) year immigration history.

Edited October 29, 2019 by orchis

[ananda23]

2 minutes ago, orchis said:

I had two visa exempts previously in 2019, but what surprised me in Chiangmai was that he just checked my name and not my 24 (!) year immigration history.

I see. However, I think my problem is that I´ve spent around 8 months straight on tourist visas since February. It seemed like all kinds of alarms went off at the immigration officers terminal in bkk. They didn´t seem to check my 10+ years immigration history either though. I´ve had a new passport since February this year and they only seemed concerned with my immigration history since February.

[NanLaew]

Fly direct KL to Vientiane on AirAsia (Tue, Thu, Sat), cross the Friendship Bridge and enter Thailand at Nongkhai on the unused SETV. I think I am correct that if this is your second SETV from a regional Thai Embassy or Consulate, that's your limit.

 

Take care of as much business as you can during your stay and try not to extend. Go home and get another SETV (or a Non-B if your business plans allow) and proceed with either your business plans or bite the bullet and aim to 'convert' in-country to a Non-O for marriage with proof of income requirements.

[NanLaew]

17 minutes ago, ananda23 said:

I´ve had a new passport since February this year and they only seemed concerned with my immigration history since February.

Your entire immigration history will be available when they linked your passport last February. It will be at each inspecting IO's discretion whether they have issues with that prior history.

[gk10002000]

I don't think you should have hopes of being classified as a proper tourist by any Thai definition of the word.  By your own admission you have been living and working in Thailand on a variety of visas.  You do mention business visa at one point, but can't tell how long you used that in relation to the other visas. 

[orchis]

2 minutes ago, gk10002000 said:

I don't think you should have hopes of being classified as a proper tourist by any Thai definition of the word.  By your own admission you have been living and working in Thailand on a variety of visas.  You do mention business visa at one point, but can't tell how long you used that in relation to the other visas. 

Please give the Thai definition of the word tourist and a legal reference to it.

[gk10002000]

13 minutes ago, orchis said:

Please give the Thai definition of the word tourist and a legal reference to it.

sure thing. Which Immigration Office and Officer would you like it from?  Various suggestions:

No more than two SETVs in one calendar year?

No more than 6 Visa Exempts in one calendar year?

No more than six months total time in country in one calendar year?

Many consecutive years of four or five months on all sorts of different visas, ED, SETV, METV, etc.  Many reports of IOs deciding you come too many times,  You not tourist.

Various other permutations possible

 

Edited October 29, 2019 by gk10002000

[ananda23]

19 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Fly direct KL to Vientiane on AirAsia (Tue, Thu, Sat), cross the Friendship Bridge and enter Thailand at Nongkhai on the unused SETV. I think I am correct that if this is your second SETV from a regional Thai Embassy or Consulate, that's your limit.

 

Take care of as much business as you can during your stay and try not to extend. Go home and get another SETV (or a Non-B if your business plans allow) and proceed with either your business plans or bite the bullet and aim to 'convert' in-country to a Non-O for marriage with proof of income requirements.

Thanks for your answer. Here´s my complete history this year: Flew in from Germany end of February and got a 30 day visa exemption. Extended it. Went to Mae Sai end of April to get a 30 day visa exemption stamp. Extended it. End of June went to Vientiane. I don´t remember why but I didn´t go to the Thai embassy to get a SETV, just went back with a visa exemption stamp. Extended it. August I went back to Vientiane. Didn´t get a SETV (that was when they didn´t give me the visa), just a visa exemption stamp. Extended it. A little over a week ago flew to Hong Kong for a couple of nights. Was denied entry at Chiang Mai airport and sent to KL. Got a SETV in KL, flew to bkk. Got denied entry again & was sent back to KL. Flew back to Germany where I am right now.

So the SETV from KL is actually the only Thai visa in my passport, the rest is just visa exemption stamps.

So you think I can get into Thailand at Nongkhai on my SETV from KL? How sure are you?

[ananda23]

36 minutes ago, gk10002000 said:

I don't think you should have hopes of being classified as a proper tourist by any Thai definition of the word.  By your own admission you have been living and working in Thailand on a variety of visas.  You do mention business visa at one point, but can't tell how long you used that in relation to the other visas. 

I was on a business visa for about two years when I ran a hostel but closed the business early last year. So the majority of the past 10 years I was on tourist and ED visas. You are right I am not exactly a tourist which is why I want to get a business visa again asap but as I mentioned above it will take me about 2 more months to have the resort finished and set up a Thai Limited company.

[NanLaew]

26 minutes ago, ananda23 said:

So you think I can get into Thailand at Nongkhai on my SETV from KL? How sure are you?

My suggestion is solely based on the same suggestion being offered to another foreigner who had maxed out the easy welcome to Thailand and was sent back to LHR after they rejected his SETV at Suvarnabhumi because he had stayed too long as a tourist. Its a 15 page thread so take your time.

 

 

Make sure you have return ticket with a return date (not open) and the 20,000 baht (or equivalent) cash. Although Nongkhai have no reputation for even asking to see these, it may be advisable with your 'priors'.

 

If you hold on a bit, member ubonjoe will probably pick up on this thread and give his opinion as he has a broader take on the ins and outs depending on pre-existing entry types. Member elviajero is also a good source of accurate advice.

[BritTim]

1 hour ago, ananda23 said:

So you think I can get into Thailand at Nongkhai on my SETV from KL? How sure are you?

All prior experience suggests that you will be fine entering at Nong Khai with a visa. It is also extremely likely you would have been (would still be) OK flying into Chiang Mai with a visa.

 

According to the law, Immigration's instructions when you enter visa exempt are very different from those when you enter with a visa (and also very different from those of most other countries). When you enter visa exempt, Immigration is under instructions to prevent you from using visa exempt entries to spend extended periods in Thailand (though this is subject to their discretion). This has been true since 2014. When you have a visa, officially, Immigration is only supposed to deny entry according to the reasons specified in Section 12 of the Immigration Act. Immigration at some airports has taken to twisting Section 12 (2) to mean something that was never intended, but (so far) there is no evidence of Chiang Mai airport Immigration doing so.

 

EDIT: As a matter of interest, when you were denied entry at CNX, was an official denial of entry stamp placed in your passport. If so, could you please reveal the reason given on this official stamp (or post a scan of it here so we can figure it out). Thanks.

Edited October 29, 2019 by BritTim

[ananda23]

1 hour ago, BritTim said:

All prior experience suggests that you will be fine entering at Nong Khai with a visa. It is also extremely likely you would have been (would still be) OK flying into Chiang Mai with a visa.

 

According to the law, Immigration's instructions when you enter visa exempt are very different from those when you enter with a visa (and also very different from those of most other countries). When you enter visa exempt, Immigration is under instructions to prevent you from using visa exempt entries to spend extended periods in Thailand (though this is subject to their discretion). This has been true since 2014. When you have a visa, officially, Immigration is only supposed to deny entry according to the reasons specified in Section 12 of the Immigration Act. Immigration at some airports has taken to twisting Section 12 (2) to mean something that was never intended, but (so far) there is no evidence of Chiang Mai airport Immigration doing so.

 

EDIT: As a matter of interest, when you were denied entry at CNX, was an official denial of entry stamp placed in your passport. If so, could you please reveal the reason given on this official stamp (or post a scan of it here so we can figure it out). Thanks.

Thanks a lot for your info. I might try Nong Khai then. As to your question concerning an official denial of entry stamp, yes I got one at CNX and another at DMK a few days later. Here´s a photo:

[Ron jeremy]

U can't live there on a tourist visa, find another place to live or get a proper visa. Quite simple, 

[lkv]

36 minutes ago, Ron jeremy said:

U can't live there on a tourist visa, find another place to live or get a proper visa. Quite simple, 

Next year, you might hear the same from Immigration about your current status, have patience. You might just be on the wrong visa.

[ananda23]

1 hour ago, Ron jeremy said:

U can't live there on a tourist visa, find another place to live or get a proper visa. Quite simple, 

Not sure if you read my original post. I am in the process of setting up a Thai Limited company so I can get a proper visa. I just need a solution for the next 2 months until I´ve sorted everything out.

[lkv]

7 hours ago, ananda23 said:

I still have the (unused) 60 day single entry tourist visa I just got in KL in my passport. So you think I might get in flying into Chiang Mai or using a land border?

Ok here is my 2 cents if you want to minimize risk to the max. This is what I would do.

 

Change your passport there in Germany.

 

Forget about the current SETV in the old passport. I know it's valid, but once the passport gets cancelled, it makes the visa invalid anyway. 

 

Fly to Vientiane.

 

Apply for SETV and cross via Nong Khai (make sure you have the bank statement and everything else that the Consulate requires nowadays). Then extend 30 more days at Chiangmai and that will give you 90 days

 

 

Regardless of some comments, as far as I understand it, the IO does not see the full history, just the last one or two entries. They can get it if they want to, but on another computer. However, this is not the only reason I advise changing it. These stamps will become a pain in the a#s and raise eyebrows not only when you enter Thailand, but other countries as well.

 

So I'd start fresh.

Edited October 29, 2019 by lkv

[lkv]

8 hours ago, ananda23 said:

Eventually I met someone with connections to the border and thus managed to get a third 30 day stamp.

Furthermore, your current passport contains 3 visa exempt stamps obtained at a land border this year, which may have contributed to your rejections?

 

Have you thought that your last visa exempt stamp might not be computerised? As in, it does not show up in the system? Only in the passport?

 

And yes, it is my opinion that the computer systems for extensions at the local Immigration office, run separately from the ones at the border, since I anticipate an obvious question coming.

 

So maybe time to say good bye to it (the passport that is, not Thailand ????)

Edited October 29, 2019 by lkv

[shy coconut]

5 hours ago, orchis said:

Please give the Thai definition of the word tourist and a legal reference to it.

Living and working in a country would not be considered a tourist activity 

anywhere, sorry that I can't give you any legal definition.

 

If you think that you've hatched a cunning plan to fox the immigration department

with your loophole theory, then I fear you may well be mistaken

[BritTim]

3 hours ago, ananda23 said:

Thanks a lot for your info. I might try Nong Khai then. As to your question concerning an official denial of entry stamp, yes I got one at CNX and another at DMK a few days later. Here´s a photo:

 

Thanks for the scans. It seems Section 12 (2) was used in both cases. However, curiously, CNX added Section 12 (3), which means intention to work illegally. Interesting. Since the real reason for denial of visa exempt entry at CNX was Immigration's judgement that you were not qualified to receive one, a more accurate justification for the denial would be Section 12 (1), lack of suitable travel documents, instead.

[lkv]

37 minutes ago, BritTim said:

 

Thanks for the scans. It seems Section 12 (2) was used in both cases. However, curiously, CNX added Section 12 (3), which means intention to work illegally. Interesting. Since the real reason for denial of visa exempt entry at CNX was Immigration's judgement that you were not qualified to receive one, a more accurate justification for the denial would be Section 12 (1), lack of suitable travel documents, instead.

Why would 12.1 be more appropriate?

 

1. Having no genuine and valid passport or document used in lieu of passport; or having a genuine and valid passport or document used in lieu of a passport without Visaing by the Royal Thai Embassies or Consulates in Foreign countries; or from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, excepting if a visa is not required for certain types of aliens in special instances. Visaing and visa exemption will be under the learn and conditions as provided in the Ministerial Regulations.

 

So he had a valid genuine passport, and he qualified for visa exempt (first case), and second case had a visa. Both denials took place in airports (CNX and DMK) anyways, so no visa exempt limit.

 

He got rejected on: 

 

12.2. Having no appropriate means of living following entrance into the Kingdom.

 

12.3. Having entered into the Kingdom to take occupation as a laborer or to take employment by using physical without skills training or to work in violation of the Ministerial Regulations.

 

So in short, they though he'll work on the tourist visa.

 

The backpackers seem to get rejected with 12.(2)+(9). 

 

At least what I know now is that DMK rejected 2668 in 10 months, which is an average of 266 per month or 8.8 people per day. 

 

Did this math a few months ago on another stamp, and surprisingly, I remember the result was also 8 something per day.

 

So they keep going at the same sort of rate.

Edited October 29, 2019 by lkv

[BritTim]

56 minutes ago, lkv said:

Why would 12.1 be more appropriate?

Since he did not qualify for a visa exempt (according to the official's judgement) he should have applied for a visa (as Immigration in Chiang Mai advised him) before trying to enter the country. He was trying to enter Thailand without a valid visa. Yes, I know Immigration had the discretion to either grant or deny the visa exempt entry, but he was found not to qualify. It is similar to me (a UK citizen) entering Vietnam visa exempt, and then a week after leaving trying to enter Vietnam again visa exempt. I will be informed that I do not qualify, and should have acquired a visa instead. The only difference is that Immigration at Thai airports have discretion.

 

EDIT: The argument above refers only to CNX where he wanted a visa exempt entry. The situation at DMK was different, as he was using a visa and clearly could not have been denied under Section 12 (1). Thus, if they wanted to deny entry, they had to distort Section 12 (2) to mean something that was never intended.

Edited October 30, 2019 by BritTim

[lkv]

15 minutes ago, BritTim said:

Since he did not qualify for a visa exempt (according to the official's judgement)

Official judgement is what's written on the stamp.

 

Anything else that comes out of their mouths is blabla, and in most cases misleading.

 

Many that "come too many times" are told it's because "they come too many times", and there is no paragraph in section 12 for "too many times", as we all know.

 

We are not to read too much into what they bla bla there, it does not have the same logic as in Western Europe. Many also lie through their teeth, which is classic Thai specialty.

 

If the "boss" was not so keen to fill his quota of denials and was perhaps sweetened with 1,000 baht, the entry would have been granted.

 

Meanwhile, we are discussing visa exempt versus visa etc.

Edited October 30, 2019 by lkv