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[racket]

The sooner NATO dies the better, the name itself is contradictory to what it has become. It was supposed to only be a NORTH ATLANTIC alliance, although it was stretched all the way to the east of Eurasia. What the hell, do they seriously want to include Northern Macedonia? Mr. Republican Robert A. Taft was right a long time ago.

[racket]

Europe enjoys welfare spending for their own citizens because they spend ZERO on defense - while America suffers! 

[evadgib]

46 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Indeed I'm no Putin stooge, but how could I prove it anyway.

 

My opinion is that the Euros are not paying their way, and it's long past time for them to stand on their own two feet and pay their own way. They have lots of money to do so.

Once upon a time, a long time ago, Britain actually had a military that could stand against the best military in the world at that time, even though it took a while to get it up to speed. They even used to make weapons and war planes and navy ships. Then they gave it all away and expected someone else to protect them. Don't make much any more, sadly

There are still a few dedicated souls among the reserve diligently getting on with it:

 

[Becker]

12 minutes ago, racket said:

Europe enjoys welfare spending for their own citizens because they spend ZERO on defense - while America suffers! 

Europe does not spend ZERO on defense - stop talking nonsense.

And whatever suffering there is in the US it's entirely self-inflicted.

[mfd101]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Is that supposed to be a joke? 

I don't see why a non existent military force would be needed to save NZ from an ally. They don't need our sheep as they have plenty of them over there.

Never heard of irony?

 

[candide]

4 hours ago, billd766 said:

Have a look at who spends what and how much on NATO.

 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6745786/nato-contributions-country-who-pay-most-least-2-percent-gdp-target-trump/

 

 

An international comparison is even more instructing. Actually, Russia does not seem to spend more than France. There are probably hidden military expenses in Russia and the cost is likely to be lower than in Europe.

It shows that military expenses in Europe are not ridiculous. By increasing expenses and most of all by better organising the military effort, it would not be so difficult to get a significant European defence.

[racket]

1 hour ago, Becker said:

Europe does not spend ZERO on defense - stop talking nonsense.

And whatever suffering there is in the US it's entirely self-inflicted.

They do, and let me explain why (except for a few countries like Greece, UK and Poland). The majority allocate spending to R&D from their military budgets which isn't technically military spending. The average to GDP equals about 1-1.2% for EU member states, of which 50-75% goes to R&D and if you subtract that from the percentage of GDP - they are practically spending ZERO on defense. This isn't hype talk or if Im making things up, its totally true and a fact. 

[Becker]

28 minutes ago, racket said:

They do, and let me explain why (except for a few countries like Greece, UK and Poland). The majority allocate spending to R&D from their military budgets which isn't technically military spending. The average to GDP equals about 1-1.2% for EU member states, of which 50-75% goes to R&D and if you subtract that from the percentage of GDP - they are practically spending ZERO on defense. This isn't hype talk or if Im making things up, its totally true and a fact. 

Awaiting credible links that support your claims.

[candide]

1 hour ago, candide said:

An international comparison is even more instructing. Actually, Russia does not seem to spend more than France. There are probably hidden military expenses in Russia and the cost is likely to be lower than in Europe.

It shows that military expenses in Europe are not ridiculous. By increasing expenses and most of all by better organising the military effort, it would not be so difficult to get a significant European defence.

Ooops! I forgot the link

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

[billd766]

2 hours ago, racket said:

Europe enjoys welfare spending for their own citizens because they spend ZERO on defense - while America suffers! 

Really? Europe spends NOTHING on defence?

 

Try this link and see who pays what.

 

Have a look at who spends what and how much on NATO.

 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6745786/nato-contributions-country-who-pay-most-least-2-percent-gdp-target-trump/

 

56 minutes ago, racket said:

They do, and let me explain why (except for a few countries like Greece, UK and Poland). The majority allocate spending to R&D from their military budgets which isn't technically military spending. The average to GDP equals about 1-1.2% for EU member states, of which 50-75% goes to R&D and if you subtract that from the percentage of GDP - they are practically spending ZERO on defense. This isn't hype talk or if Im making things up, its totally true and a fact. 

What a load of cobblers.

 

If that is what you believe then please paste the links, facts and information.

[billd766]

What is so confusing about providing links, facts and information. If you are correct then it should be easy for you. OTH ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Becker has asked the same question.

[Scot123]

Let's get one thing straight GB is the only county in Europe who has constantly met its obligations to Nato and that includes spending. The most Eastern countries are now investing heavily in their military as they know the threat. The hypocrisy of France and Germany pushing their EU army is all about controlling its members and nothing to do with defence. The last major exercise Germany sent its soldiers there with broom handles for guns and their fighter jets all grounded due to no parts. Britain needs out of that mess or we will wakeup one day to find German and French soldiers on our streets. Let us not forget French elite and their generals supported Hitler and fraught along side Germans against us and there were only 30 French soldiers who landed on D day and out of the 150000 French soldiers rescued off the beaches at Dunkirk only 10,000 stayed to fight for their country.

[Salerno]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Tell me if I'm wrong.

You're wrong  

[Thongkorn]

18 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I never said there wouldn't be a war again, DID I?

 

NATO was set up when BAOR was in force- that's gone.

 

Europe is wealthy enough to protect itself from Putin without having to have America hold its hand.

 

one that helped keep the peace for 70+ years.

Seriously???????????????

Not a year gone by without war somewhere.

Europe is America's first line of defence , So America has to pay for it, Britain has been paying into Nato since 1947, France 1970s, Germany, italy, Spain, and the rest very littel if any.

[Cryingdick]

42 minutes ago, Thongkorn said:

Europe is America's first line of defence , So America has to pay for it, Britain has been paying into Nato since 1947, France 1970s, Germany, italy, Spain, and the rest very littel if any.

 

Defense from who? The Pacific and Atlantic oceans are our first line of defence.

[nauseus]

20 hours ago, stevenl said:

" The possibility that this force might be used to control Europe, rather than defend it, is one of the best reasons to leave the EU. "

Hmm, no, only conspiracy theorists on TVF and other fora spout that.

Fora, flora or fauna?

[nauseus]

19 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Has France ever been able to defend themselves against a major attack?

They hadn't done too well last century in that department. Even a bunch of rebels in Algeria made them give up. WW2, Indochina etc.

So you agree then.

[JAG]

On 11/8/2019 at 10:52 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

I doubt that if a certain country attempts to invade NZ,

Why on earth would Australia wish to invade New Zealand?

 

I understood that most New Zealanders under 40 actually live in Australia, and the country is largely populated by sheep, of which Australia has more than enough!

 

Most perplexing...

[JAG]

On 11/8/2019 at 2:04 PM, thaibeachlovers said:

Has France ever been able to defend themselves against a major attack?

They hadn't done too well last century in that department. Even a bunch of rebels in Algeria made them give up. WW2, Indochina etc.

That is perhaps a bit unkind. Mind you, I have heard the question asked: "How many divisions does it take to defend Paris?"

 

And the answer: "Nobody knows, it has never been tried!"