Well yes, obviously crack head Hunter Biden should testify, given he and his dad's grift in Ukraine are at the heart of why Trump asked Ukraine to find out what happened. I don't see how any rational person can argue otherwise.

2 hours ago, Becker said:

Requesting? You mean blackmailing, right?

Blackmailing would entail telling someone consequences for not going along with a demand. For example, Joe Biden told Ukraine they'd lose a billion in loan guarantees if Ukraine didn't do as they demanded.

4 minutes ago, rabas said:

 

Russia/Ukraine is not a high conflict area? It's a most strategically important one, including support with advanced US weapons, and corruption has been a serious part of the equation.

 

Russia/Ukraine is a high conflict area. So was Trump assigning Giuliani to act as an honest broker between Russia and Ukraine? What did Trump's delegation of authority have to do with Russia?

1 minute ago, Crazy Alex said:

Blackmailing would entail telling someone consequences for not going along with a demand. For example, Joe Biden told Ukraine they'd lose a billion in loan guarantees if Ukraine didn't do as they demanded.

By that definition all negotiating is blackmailing. There was nothing illicit or illegal in telling the Ukraine government that it's not going to get aid money if it doesn't clean up its act. Especially when this demand is made openly and with the full consent of Congress. There is something illicit and/or illegal in telling the head of state to cooperate with his private defense attorney to obtain a thing of value in exchange for aid that the US Congress has authorized. And the disbursement of which, Congress pushed hard to accomplish once the resistance of Trump became clear.

27 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

By that definition all negotiating is blackmailing. There was nothing illicit or illegal in telling the Ukraine government that it's not going to get aid money if it doesn't clean up its act. Especially when this demand is made openly and with the full consent of Congress. There is something illicit and/or illegal in telling the head of state to cooperate with his private defense attorney to obtain a thing of value in exchange for aid that the US Congress has authorized. And the disbursement of which, Congress pushed hard to accomplish once the resistance of Trump became clear.

"Find out what happened." Therein lies your problem. There is nothing illicit about asking someone to "find out what happened". Obviously, Ukraine could find out Joe Biden wasn't shaking down Ukraine and that the sweet gig Hunter Biden got wasn't as the result of blackmail.

 

Bonus question: Who in the US sets foreign policy?

5 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

"Find out what happened." Therein lies your problem. There is nothing illicit about asking someone to "find out what happened". Obviously, Ukraine could find out Joe Biden wasn't shaking down Ukraine and that the sweet gig Hunter Biden got wasn't as the result of blackmail.

 

Bonus question: Who in the US sets foreign policy?

Trump told the Ukrainian president to consult with Giuliani, who by his own account was acting on Trump's personal behalf, not on behalf of the USA. Obviously, this is self dealing. And the authority to set US foreign policy is not a case of carte blanche. Self-dealing is definitely prohibited.

2 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Trump told the Ukrainian president to consult with Giuliani, who by his own account was acting on Trump's personal behalf, not on behalf of the USA. Obviously, this is self dealing. And the authority to set US foreign policy is not a case of carte blanche. Self-dealing is definitely prohibited.

I'm not sure what Giuliani has to do with the phone call in which Trump supposedly blackmailed Zelensky. As for Giuliani, you will have to prove actual self-dealing.

 

Be careful what you pray for: you might get it.

1 hour ago, Crazy Alex said:

Blackmailing would entail telling someone consequences for not going along with a demand. For example, Joe Biden told Ukraine they'd lose a billion in loan guarantees if Ukraine didn't do as they demanded.

The blackmailee said he wasn't blackedmailed or even  pressured! Fact!

22 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

I'm not sure what Giuliani has to do with the phone call in which Trump supposedly blackmailed Zelensky. As for Giuliani, you will have to prove actual self-dealing.

 

Be careful what you pray for: you might get it.

So, you actually know very little about that phone call. Not an easy feat to accomplish, given how much it's been featured in the news. Congratulations on your insularity.

 

This is from the Wall Street Journal, which is owned by Rupert Murdoch:

"President Trump in a July phone call repeatedly pressured the president of Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden’s son, according to people familiar with the matter, urging Volodymyr Zelensky about eight times to work with Rudy Giuliani on a probe that could hamper Mr. Trump’s potential 2020 opponent.

“He told him that he should work with [Mr. Giuliani] on Biden, and that people in Washington wanted to know” if his lawyer’s assertions that Mr. Biden acted improperly as vice president were true, one of the people said. Mr. Giuliani has suggested Mr. Biden’s pressure on Ukraine to fight corruption had to do with an investigation of a gas company for which his son was a director."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-defends-conversation-with-ukraine-leader-11568993176

 

5 minutes ago, riclag said:

The blackmailee said he wasn't blackedmailed or even  pressured! Fact, blowin in the wind by the propaganda machine of the dems  to sway public opinion

Right. Because Zelensky knows, just like virtually everyone else, that Trump is the most forgiving of men, and accepts with good grace and benevolence those who refuse to back his version of events.

 

14 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

So, you actually know very little about that phone call. Not an easy feat to accomplish, given how much it's been featured in the news. Congratulations on your insularity.

 

This is from the Wall Street Journal, which is owned by Rupert Murdoch:

"President Trump in a July phone call repeatedly pressured the president of Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden’s son, according to people familiar with the matter, urging Volodymyr Zelensky about eight times to work with Rudy Giuliani on a probe that could hamper Mr. Trump’s potential 2020 opponent.

“He told him that he should work with [Mr. Giuliani] on Biden, and that people in Washington wanted to know” if his lawyer’s assertions that Mr. Biden acted improperly as vice president were true, one of the people said. Mr. Giuliani has suggested Mr. Biden’s pressure on Ukraine to fight corruption had to do with an investigation of a gas company for which his son was a director."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-defends-conversation-with-ukraine-leader-11568993176

 

I don't need an editorial on the phone call. I read the transcript.

5 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

I follow the facts.  They speak for themselves.  As Rep. John Kennedy said in the earlier vid I posted, the request by Trump to Zelensky and the Biden affair are inextricably linked.  You can insist until doomsday that it's only about "what Trump did."  It's not a good enough answer for many people and they will not settle for it, period.

Trumpers have a BIG problem understanding some of the simplest things.  POTUS believed he could weaken Biden by having Ukraine claim they were investigating he and his family.  He has a right to believe all the nonsense he believes (birtherism, Central Park 5, Chinese hoax of climate change, millions of illegal 2016 votes, etc. etc.)  He does not have the authority/right to coerce another nation to investigate his personal political rivals.  He is bound by his Oath of Office to serve the nation, our nation.  It does not matter if what POTUS believes is true or not.  Therefor any testimony by the Bidens is irrelevant.  The investigation is into POTUS's abuse of power.

 

5 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

This thread is about the Bidens and the whistle blower.

This thread is about what witnesses are relevant to the investigation of POTUS's abuse of power.

 

5 hours ago, Sujo said:

The impeachment investigation is on what trump did. Its not whether biden is guilty of anything.

 

What part of that do you not understand.

 

If they want biden there are proper legal ways to do it. Go for it.

 

But this is about what trump did. It matters not what biden did or didnt do.

Trumpers refuse to understand this logic.  They also dismiss the obvious instruction of justice highlighted in the Mueller report because Trump wasn't indicted.  It doesn't matter if there was an resulting indictment because the obstruction is a separate crime....too complicated for POTUS's base to comprehend.

19 minutes ago, gamb00ler said:

Trumpers have a BIG problem understanding some of the simplest things.  POTUS believed he could weaken Biden by having Ukraine claim they were investigating he and his family.  He has a right to believe all the nonsense he believes (birtherism, Central Park 5, Chinese hoax of climate change, millions of illegal 2016 votes, etc. etc.)  He does not have the authority/right to coerce another nation to investigate his personal political rivals.  He is bound by his Oath of Office to serve the nation, our nation.  It does not matter if what POTUS believes is true or not.  Therefor any testimony by the Bidens is irrelevant.  The investigation is into POTUS's abuse of power.

 

This thread is about what witnesses are relevant to the investigation of POTUS's abuse of power.

 

Trumpers refuse to understand this logic.  They also dismiss the obvious instruction of justice highlighted in the Mueller report because Trump wasn't indicted.  It doesn't matter if there was an resulting indictment because the obstruction is a separate crime....too complicated for POTUS's base to comprehend.

No pressure, no blackmail,no coercion and that's coming from the person that the corporate media claims was offended ! Transparency begs for schiff ,biden and the CIA agent to be exposed in a open door hearing!

 

9 minutes ago, riclag said:

No pressure, no blackmail,no coercion and that's coming from the person that the corporate media claims was offended ! Transparency begs for schiff ,biden and the CIA agent to be exposed in a open door hearing!

 

"it means nothing that Zelenskyy claimed publicly that there was no quid pro quo on the part of Trump. It only means that it would be unwise for the Ukrainian president to criticize the U.S. president."

Ukrainians are humble people. They know that they are receiving foreign assistance and that they had better be grateful for it. I did not hear any Ukrainian in Kyiv criticizing their president for being subservient to Trump. Why should he do anything else if he wants U.S. support, they would argue?

4 minutes ago, Opl said:

"it means nothing that Zelenskyy claimed publicly that there was no quid pro quo on the part of Trump. It only means that it would be unwise for the Ukrainian president to criticize the U.S. president."

Ukrainians are humble people. They know that they are receiving foreign assistance and that they had better be grateful for it. I did not hear any Ukrainian in Kyiv criticizing their president for being subservient to Trump. Why should he do anything else if he wants U.S. support, they would argue?

The opinion writer would be much more believable if Prez Z claimed QPQ but the fact is he didn't!! . No matter how you cut it fact is fact ,no pressure no blackmail from the horses mouth.. Another thing comes to mind which this opinion writer doesn't entertain is Prez Z could of got support with or without President Trump ,probably more if he went along with the hoax imop

5 minutes ago, riclag said:

The opinion writer would be much more believable if Prez Z claimed QPQ but the fact is he didn't!! . No matter how you cut it fact is fact ,no pressure no blackmail from the horses mouth.. Another thing comes to mind which this opinion writer doesn't entertain is Prez Z could of got support with or without President Trump ,probably more if he went along with the hoax imop

I guess they think the president of Ukraine is too dumb and/or too weak to speak his mind. I'm not sure what else I'm supposed to think when they tell me not to listen to what he said about the phone call.

1 hour ago, gamb00ler said:

Trumpers have a BIG problem understanding some of the simplest things.  POTUS believed he could weaken Biden by having Ukraine claim they were investigating he and his family.  He has a right to believe all the nonsense he believes (birtherism, Central Park 5, Chinese hoax of climate change, millions of illegal 2016 votes, etc. etc.)  He does not have the authority/right to coerce another nation to investigate his personal political rivals.  He is bound by his Oath of Office to serve the nation, our nation.  It does not matter if what POTUS believes is true or not.  Therefor any testimony by the Bidens is irrelevant.  The investigation is into POTUS's abuse of power.

 

This thread is about what witnesses are relevant to the investigation of POTUS's abuse of power.

 

Trumpers refuse to understand this logic.  They also dismiss the obvious instruction of justice highlighted in the Mueller report because Trump wasn't indicted.  It doesn't matter if there was an resulting indictment because the obstruction is a separate crime....too complicated for POTUS's base to comprehend.

The alternative explanation is that they don't have any other argument at hand. So they just repeat over and over the same debunked arguments in order to make as much noise as possible.

5 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

I guess they think the president of Ukraine is too dumb and/or too weak to speak his mind. I'm not sure what else I'm supposed to think when they tell me not to listen to what he said about the phone call.

The GOP have a bullet proof narrative  by exposing schiff's political bias as to calling or not allowing certain gop requested witnesses,especially since they are key players in this second hoax. 

4 minutes ago, riclag said:

The GOP have a bullet proof narrative  by exposing schiff's political bias as to calling or not allowing certain gop requested witnesses,especially since they are key players in this second hoax. 

Add to that the whistleblower is just a DNC operative who conspired with Adam Schiff. Eventually, the truth will come out.

 

As far as Ukrainian-American Colonel Vindman, he's like many leftists- upset that Trump won. In his case, he also suffers from the delusion that he and other State and Intel hacks run foreign policy.

 

They are terribly wrong.

1 hour ago, riclag said:

No pressure, no blackmail,no coercion and that's coming from the person that the corporate media claims was offended ! Transparency begs for schiff ,biden and the CIA agent to be exposed in a open door hearing!

 

 

52 minutes ago, riclag said:

The opinion writer would be much more believable if Prez Z claimed QPQ but the fact is he didn't!! . No matter how you cut it fact is fact ,no pressure no blackmail from the horses mouth.. Another thing comes to mind which this opinion writer doesn't entertain is Prez Z could of got support with or without President Trump ,probably more if he went along with the hoax imop

You're right it is a FACT that Prez Z said he didn't feel pressure.

 

Trumpers have an uncanny ability to ignore someone's possible/probable motives if what they say or do agrees with their personal interpretation.  Yet they will dream up all sorts of crazy motives to explain away facts/statements presented by anyone with an opposing view.

 

Prez Z displayed a most agreeable fecal swallowing smile to extract himself from this quagmire.

Troll posts and replies removed.  

 

4 hours ago, riclag said:

No pressure, no blackmail,no coercion and that's coming from the person that the corporate media claims was offended ! Transparency begs for schiff ,biden and the CIA agent to be exposed in a open door hearing!

 

Ahhh come on what would you say if the bear is at the door and some a hole won’t hand you the bullet to defend your sielf it’s obvious to all what trump is up to he is incapable of operating within the confines of the constitution he is dirty and needs to go

Full text of the letter sent to Nunes by Schiff included in the below article.

 

Schiff calls whistleblower testimony "redundant and unnecessary"

 

https://www.axios.com/schiff-calls-whistleblower-testimony-redundant-and-unnecessary-5f2e66a7-7947-4e4d-b2fa-289efb88927b.html

 

Full text of the letter Nunes sent to Schiff included in the below article.

 

Schiff rebuffs call for Bidens, whistleblower to testify in impeachment probe

 

https://www.axios.com/republicans-impeachment-inquiry-witness-list-1e03f556-7900-48e0-8b7f-331f23477922.html

 

Now you know why the Dems have rigged the impeachment process.  Among other reasons, they desperately need to control the witness list.  I said it long ago . . . Schiff will never allow the whistle blower to testify because if he did it would be disastrous for the Dems.  And particularly for Schiff personally since his staff and possibly Schiff himself had contact with the whistle blower prior to the filing of the complaint and for which there were a number of irregularities.

 

And of course he will not pursue the corruption of the Bidens.  He cannot pursue it.  Any corruption uncovered would be fatally damaging to the impeachment attempt.

 

"As we move to open hearings, it is important to underscore that the impeachment inquiry, and the Committee, will not serve as vehicles for any Member to carry out the same sham investigations into the Bidens or debunked conspiracies about 2016 U.S. election interference that President Trump pressed Ukraine to conduct for his personal political benefit.

 

"The Committee also will not facilitate efforts by President Trump and his allies in Congress to threaten, intimidate, and retaliate against the whistleblower who courageously raised the initial alarm."

 

Schiff is ultimately an idiot.  While he has the majority in the House and thus can wield dictatorial control he has no such power over the Senate.  He's an idiot because he thinks he can prevent the truth from coming out when in fact it will come out in a Senate trial.

6 hours ago, gamb00ler said:

Trumpers have a BIG problem understanding some of the simplest things.  POTUS believed he could weaken Biden by having Ukraine claim they were investigating he and his family.  He has a right to believe all the nonsense he believes (birtherism, Central Park 5, Chinese hoax of climate change, millions of illegal 2016 votes, etc. etc.)  He does not have the authority/right to coerce another nation to investigate his personal political rivals.  He is bound by his Oath of Office to serve the nation, our nation.  It does not matter if what POTUS believes is true or not.  Therefor any testimony by the Bidens is irrelevant.  The investigation is into POTUS's abuse of power.

 

This thread is about what witnesses are relevant to the investigation of POTUS's abuse of power.

 

Trumpers refuse to understand this logic.  They also dismiss the obvious instruction of justice highlighted in the Mueller report because Trump wasn't indicted.  It doesn't matter if there was an resulting indictment because the obstruction is a separate crime....too complicated for POTUS's base to comprehend.

POTUS believed he could weaken Biden by having Ukraine claim they were investigating he and his family.

 

Incessant BS passed off as truth.  That statement is what you and others are claiming to be true.  It's merely a claim, an opinion, speculation.  It's dependent on certain available facts being arranged in such a fashion as to allude to the claim being true while purposely ignoring available facts which do not fit the desired conclusion.  Honest people do not fall for it.

 

4 hours ago, gamb00ler said:

 

You're right it is a FACT that Prez Z said he didn't feel pressure.

 

Trumpers have an uncanny ability to ignore someone's possible/probable motives if what they say or do agrees with their personal interpretation.  Yet they will dream up all sorts of crazy motives to explain away facts/statements presented by anyone with an opposing view.

 

Prez Z displayed a most agreeable fecal swallowing smile to extract himself from this quagmire.

Trumpers have an uncanny ability to ignore someone's possible/probable motives if what they say or do agrees with their personal interpretation.  Yet they will dream up all sorts of crazy motives to explain away facts/statements presented by anyone with an opposing view.

 

What would be the possible/probable motives of Biden withholding a billion dollars worth of aid?  Or are you ignoring those possible/probable motives because they don't fit your personal interpretation?  All of us here know the answer to that question.  Unbelievable that you would even attempt to argue that rationale because it's entirely evident that it's precisely what the left is doing in the case of the Bidens.

 

And who here is ignoring facts/statements which point to the Bidens' corruption?

 

More quotes from Schiff's letter to Nunes.

 

"The impeachment inquiry, moreover, has gathered an ever-growing body of evidence - from witnesses and documents, including the President's own words in his July 25 call record - that not only confirms, but far exceeds, the initial information in the whistleblower's complaint."

 

Where have I heard that before?  Wasn't it during the Mueller investigation?  Didn't Schiff at the time claim he had incontrovertible, unequivocal evidence that proved Trump and his campaign indeed colluded with the Russians?  What happened to that evidence?  Why has he not produced it since he had it?

 

Is Schiff again making false claims that evidence exists which confirm Trump's guilt in the Ukraine call hoax?  Is he again dangling that same carrot in front of his salivating Trump hating supporters?  Are his supporters falling for it again?

 

I think some people are being played.  Again.

5 hours ago, Crazy Alex said:

Add to that the whistleblower is just a DNC operative who conspired with Adam Schiff. Eventually, the truth will come out.

 

As far as Ukrainian-American Colonel Vindman, he's like many leftists- upset that Trump won. In his case, he also suffers from the delusion that he and other State and Intel hacks run foreign policy.

 

They are terribly wrong.

Who is the whistleblower?

It really doesn't matter what the fan boyz say and pretend to believe.

Nobody of independent thought believes Trump is anything other than a vulgar charlatan.

These 'independent ' votes will prevent a second term and at that point we will see who is left to defend him .

Off-topic, troll posts and replies removed.  

 

Will be interesting to see the public testimony of sondland. A guy that gave a million to trumps campaign then got appointed ambassador to the EU. That sure is a swampy way to become an ambassador.

 

First gives evidence there was no bribe. Trump loves him, great guy.

 

Has second thoughts about his lie and does a 180, yes there was a bribe. Trump hardly knows the guy now. ????