Scotland must be given new independence vote - Sturgeon

[RuamRudy]

17 minutes ago, vogie said:

You don't have to look very far to see some of your own cohorts saying that if you are not a member of the SNP and you are a Unionist you are a "traitor' what message do you think that this sends out.

 

And likewise, some of your cohorts say that if you are called Mohammed then you cannot be a real Englishman. Do those few bad apples mean that the whole of England must be tarred with the same brush?

 

Not one of my friends have ever asked if I am in the SNP - do you think that if I admitted I wasn't, they would call me a traitor? I very much doubt it. As for unionists - that is a position to which they are entitled to take. I, like just about everyone in the country, have friends who are both for and against the union, and I have friends who's affiliation I genuinely cannot say because, believe it or not, it does not dominate life in Scotland. 

22 minutes ago, vogie said:

The thing I don't believe is that the English hates the Scots, I have no evidence of placards with 'Scots out of England' or the English burning your Saltire.

 

I agree with you. But then again, I have never seen anyone burn the St George's cross, and those idiots who burn the union flag are very much lone wolf nutters widely derided as such. 

24 minutes ago, vogie said:

There is something not nice happening at the moment in Scotland and its down to the SNP, they have split your country in half, are you happy with that, have you no thought for what the Unionists must be going through, are you even bothered.

What are they going through? My neighbours don't seem too concerned - certainly they have never said that they have encountered any problems even when they had a No Thanks sign in their window. My uncle, a dyed in the wool unionist, hasn't commented on his life suddenly becoming a living hell because of the SNP, nor has he had to change his habits to avoid marauding packs of independence supporters randomly attacking innocent unionists or those who look like they might be unionist. Don't you think you might be over egging things?

 

28 minutes ago, vogie said:

I might even know Scotland better than you, all my holidays were either spent in the Highlands or the Lake District. I have walked and climbed too many Munroes and Corbetts, too many to remember, all my best mates in the army were Scots, so I do have a good reason to hope that our union remains intact and is not destroyed by the fiery Nationalists. 

Whilst I have no desire to trash your memories of when life was simpler, I am afraid I see it as insufficient reason to back the continuance of a system that serves my country badly. I believe that an independent Scotland will serve all its residents, including your ex army buddies better. 

 

31 minutes ago, vogie said:

Hopefully Scotland will get rid of Mrs Sturgeon domination of the country, it is not healthy.

In what respect? They don't have a majority in Holyrood and their numbers make them inconsequential in Westminster. She is First Minister because the Scottish Parliament chose her to be. That is democracy - democracy is good, is it not?

[RuamRudy]

27 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Celts in all corners of the UK will round on the English far quicker than the other way around.

I am curious - what about the Cornish who see themselves as Celtic? Are they not also English or do they need to choose one or the other?

[Rookiescot]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

Many would disagree with you about the country being run well, but to explain the popularity of the SNP someone said and I wouldn't argue with them: 

The whole SNP movement is built on hate.

Get the Scottish to hate the English

Get the English to hate the Scottish.

And worst of get Scottish to hate other Scots who you politically disagree with. HTH

That is pure hyperbolic nonsense. I do not know a single person in Scotland who hates the English. Not a single one.

And believe me if I ever met one who did we would be having a problem because some of my own family are English and I worked with many English people who were all fantastic.

What you are trying to do Vogie is stir up some kind of racial hatred just because such a narrative would suit your own agenda.

You should be ashamed of that mate. 

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

You don't have to look very far to see some of your own cohorts saying that if you are not a member of the SNP and you are a Unionist you are a "traitor' what message do you think that this sends out.

The thing I don't believe is that the English hates the Scots, I have no evidence of placards with 'Scots out of England' or the English burning your Saltire. There is something not nice happening at the moment in Scotland and its down to the SNP, they have split your country in half, are you happy with that, have you no thought for what the Unionists must be going through, are you even bothered.

I might even know Scotland better than you, all my holidays were either spent in the Highlands or the Lake District. I have walked and climbed too many Munroes and Corbetts, too many to remember, all my best mates in the army were Scots, so I do have a good reason to hope that our union remains intact and is not destroyed by the fiery Nationalists. It always amazes me when I talk to some Scots and many have never been further north than Glasgow or Edinburgh, they don't realise what an amazing country they have further north, but there again if you don't like mountain climbing or walking it may be not be the best place to go.

Hopefully Scotland will get rid of Mrs Sturgeon domination of the country, it is not healthy.

 

 

 

 

I think you should be careful about raising the subject of someone being a traitor.

After all it was not long back that all you Brexiteers were calling Remainers traitors.

Indeed in a post directed at me, an army veteran who served overseas in wars and in Northern Ireland, someone called me a traitor and you posted a like on that post. Remember that?

Division in Scotland has been driven by one group. Unionists. Every violent encounter between supporters of independence and unionists was created by those unionist groups.

Remember George square the day after the referendum? People were attacked by unionist groups?

Ruth Davidson with her cries of "No surrender" when talking about independence?

Its not the independence movement driving division. Its your side.

Posting this kind of stuff demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge and understanding of what the reality is in Scotland.

Its inflammatory and frankly offensive.  

 

[vogie]

19 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

That is pure hyperbolic nonsense. I do not know a single person in Scotland who hates the English. Not a single one.

And believe me if I ever met one who did we would be having a problem because some of my own family are English and I worked with many English people who were all fantastic.

What you are trying to do Vogie is stir up some kind of racial hatred just because such a narrative would suit your own agenda.

You should be ashamed of that mate. 

Enough of your accusations and nonsense. On ignore again.

[Rookiescot]

7 minutes ago, vogie said:

Enough of your accusations and nonsense. On ignore again.

Deleted before I get a holiday again.

 

Edited July 29, 2020 by Rookiescot

[RuamRudy]

14 hours ago, vogie said:

You don't think that the breakup of the UK is anything to do with England and the rest of the UK, are you serious?

i think, here, you have unwittingly highlighted the main reason so many people both north and south of the border object to the notion of Scottish independence.

 

The stories of outright hostility between family members, neighbours, even strangers; the claims of anti-Englishness as a driving force; the suggestion that Scotland couldn't survive financially - of course, anyone who has any understanding of Scots and of contemporary Scotland will tell you that that is all massively exaggerated or even complete fabrications intended to discredit the independence movement. 

 

The reality is that, for many of those who object to the idea, they simply do not like the thought of something of which they have been part for many years might change in the most fundamental of ways. If you look at the demographics it is clear - overwhelming support with under 35s, a strong and convincing majority of under 65s also in favour. The opposition comes from those over 65, who are most likely to oppose change in any form, especially one as seismic as wrestling control of your country from where it has always been for the entirety of your life.

 

And while their views are valid and legitimate, regardless of which side of the border you reside, the reality is that it is for the people of Scotland to choose their future, and the timing is their choice too. If you live in a semi detatched, you don't dictate to your neighbour if and when they can decide to move. 

[sandyf]

16 hours ago, vogie said:

This is the Edinburgh Agreement signed by our PM at the time David Cameron, Scotlands FM Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon, it was signed in 2012 by all concerned. The most relevant part of it is when it declares that: "deliver a fair test and decisive expression of the views of the people in Scotland and a result that everyone will respect.

Where does it say in perpetuity?

As for "decisive", hasn't it been established that the Russians interfered?

 

After 8 years and a significant change in circumstances it is time for a new agreement.

[Rimmer]

Some off topic flames and other stuff removed

[vogie]

28 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

i think, here, you have unwittingly highlighted the main reason so many people both north and south of the border object to the notion of Scottish independence.

 

The stories of outright hostility between family members, neighbours, even strangers; the claims of anti-Englishness as a driving force; the suggestion that Scotland couldn't survive financially - of course, anyone who has any understanding of Scots and of contemporary Scotland will tell you that that is all massively exaggerated or even complete fabrications intended to discredit the independence movement. 

 

The reality is that, for many of those who object to the idea, they simply do not like the thought of something of which they have been part for many years might change in the most fundamental of ways. If you look at the demographics it is clear - overwhelming support with under 35s, a strong and convincing majority of under 65s also in favour. The opposition comes from those over 65, who are most likely to oppose change in any form, especially one as seismic as wrestling control of your country from where it has always been for the entirety of your life.

 

And while their views are valid and legitimate, regardless of which side of the border you reside, the reality is that it is for the people of Scotland to choose their future, and the timing is their choice too. If you live in a semi detatched, you don't dictate to your neighbour if and when they can decide to move. 

I think, here, you have unwittingly highlighted the main reason so many people both north and south of the border object to the notion of Scottish independence. 

I have not unwittingly mentioned anything, what I strongly object to is saying that breaking up and the separation of The United Kingdom is nothing to do with the English, after all we do share a border, even though it is becoming placard bound by fervently inclined idealogic SNP supporters, are we in agreement so far?

But what is abuntantly clear is that the SNP has become a political party that is above critisism and woe betide anyone saying anything negative about the party or its illustrious leader Eva Sturgon. I fell into that trap last night and was branded a "Racist", it seems to me that the SNP supporters can say anything about our government and its leader ("nasty party") but you must be prepared for the retribution if you call us. 

 

If you live in a semi detatched, you don't dictate to your neighbour if and when they can decide to move. 

true but in the same breath you don't say to your wife, I am going to divorce you and it's nothing to do with you.

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

I think, here, you have unwittingly highlighted the main reason so many people both north and south of the border object to the notion of Scottish independence. 

I have not unwittingly mentioned anything, what I strongly object to is saying that breaking up and the separation of The United Kingdom is nothing to do with the English, after all we do share a border, even though it is becoming placard bound by fervently inclined idealogic SNP supporters, are we in agreement so far?

Oh please, a moment's consistency from you would be appreciated. Last week you accused me of getting over exercised because our weak, incompetent and corrupt government voted to abandon food and safety standards and voted to rid itself of the power of oversight. This week you are talking about a placard bound border manned by SNP supporters. You do understand that every word you type further underlines just how little you understand about Scotland? Clearly you don't want to know the reality - you prefer to live with these false beliefs for reasons beyond me (for the avoidance of doubt, we are not in agreement with your assessment). 

 

6 minutes ago, vogie said:

But what is abuntantly clear is that the SNP has become a political party that is above critisism and woe betide anyone saying anything negative about the party or its illustrious leader Eva Sturgon. 

Again, you reinforce just how little you know of Scottish politics and political personalities north of the border. There is nothing but criticism for the SNP from the Scottish and UK wide media (with the exception of the National and, occasionally, the Sunday Herald). The BBC constantly derides and criticises the SNP, as does Sky News and, to a lesser extent, C4. To suggest that they are somehow considered above criticism is a nonsense as fake as your other accusations. What you will find, however, is that most Scots are tired of the constant, unfounded criticism of their government. Present credible and valid accusations by all means, because they are as fallible as anyone, but stop with the endless tirade of lies and outright prejudice because that is what people rail against. 

 

11 minutes ago, vogie said:

If you live in a semi detatched, you don't dictate to your neighbour if and when they can decide to move. 

true but in the same breath you don't say to your wife, I am going to divorce you and it's nothing to do with you.

Husbands and wives, in this day and age, have an equal say in how things are managed. But, that aside, if one wants a divorce, the other has to accept it; the days of husbands having property rights over their spouses are over. 

[vogie]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

Oh please, a moment's consistency from you would be appreciated. Last week you accused me of getting over exercised because our weak, incompetent and corrupt government voted to abandon food and safety standards and voted to rid itself of the power of oversight. This week you are talking about a placard bound border manned by SNP supporters. You do understand that every word you type further underlines just how little you understand about Scotland? Clearly you don't want to know the reality - you prefer to live with these false beliefs for reasons beyond me (for the avoidance of doubt, we are not in agreement with your assessment). 

 

Again, you reinforce just how little you know of Scottish politics and political personalities north of the border. There is nothing but criticism for the SNP from the Scottish and UK wide media (with the exception of the National and, occasionally, the Sunday Herald). The BBC constantly derides and criticises the SNP, as does Sky News and, to a lesser extent, C4. To suggest that they are somehow considered above criticism is a nonsense as fake as your other accusations. What you will find, however, is that most Scots are tired of the constant, unfounded criticism of their government. Present credible and valid accusations by all means, because they are as fallible as anyone, but stop with the endless tirade of lies and outright prejudice because that is what people rail against. 

 

Husbands and wives, in this day and age, have an equal say in how things are managed. But, that aside, if one wants a divorce, the other has to accept it; the days of husbands having property rights over their spouses are over. 

Pure bluster, anything that anyone says about your glorious leader is met with 'you don't understand' please don't patronise me!

[transam]

22 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Oh please, a moment's consistency from you would be appreciated. Last week you accused me of getting over exercised because our weak, incompetent and corrupt government voted to abandon food and safety standards and voted to rid itself of the power of oversight. This week you are talking about a placard bound border manned by SNP supporters. You do understand that every word you type further underlines just how little you understand about Scotland? Clearly you don't want to know the reality - you prefer to live with these false beliefs for reasons beyond me (for the avoidance of doubt, we are not in agreement with your assessment). 

 

Again, you reinforce just how little you know of Scottish politics and political personalities north of the border. There is nothing but criticism for the SNP from the Scottish and UK wide media (with the exception of the National and, occasionally, the Sunday Herald). The BBC constantly derides and criticises the SNP, as does Sky News and, to a lesser extent, C4. To suggest that they are somehow considered above criticism is a nonsense as fake as your other accusations. What you will find, however, is that most Scots are tired of the constant, unfounded criticism of their government. Present credible and valid accusations by all means, because they are as fallible as anyone, but stop with the endless tirade of lies and outright prejudice because that is what people rail against. 

 

Husbands and wives, in this day and age, have an equal say in how things are managed. But, that aside, if one wants a divorce, the other has to accept it; the days of husbands having property rights over their spouses are over. 

Thought we had two Scottish Prime Ministers in a row, were they different Scots...?

[RuamRudy]

31 minutes ago, vogie said:

Pure bluster, anything that anyone says about your glorious leader is met with 'you don't understand' please don't patronise me!

When all you offer is conjecture devoid of anything of substance, I have nothing else to respond to. Respond with something insightful and then we will have the basis for a discussion. Continue to offer lies and smears and expect to get taken to task for it. After all, if you are happy to repeatedly claim that the political aspirations I have held for most of my adult life come from me being fundamentally 'anti-english', you can't surely expect me to ignore it?

 

 

[RuamRudy]

18 minutes ago, transam said:

Thought we had two Scottish Prime Ministers in a row, were they different Scots...?

I am not sure that this is relevant. Is it?

[vogie]

10 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

When all you offer is conjecture devoid of anything of substance, I have nothing else to respond to. Respond with something insightful and then we will have the basis for a discussion. Continue to offer lies and smears and expect to get taken to task for it. After all, if you are happy to repeatedly claim that the political aspirations I have held for most of my adult life come from me being fundamentally 'anti-english', you can't surely expect me to ignore it?

 

 

I have never called you anti english, but that doesn't mean that there are certain factions aligned to the SNP that are and some on here are, as it has been proven. 

This is the 4th time of me asking and I know you have the right not answer if you don't want, but do you think that the break up of the UK has nothing to do with the english as many posters seem to think.

I will keep the post short as much longer ones seem not to get an answer on important issues.

[transam]

15 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I am not sure that this is relevant. Is it?

Why not, Scots here keep mentioning Scots, and Scots controlled the UK with their Scots roots for well over a decade in Westminster, did these Scots stuff Scotland leading to the SNP trying to quosh the Union...? 

[RuamRudy]

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

I have never called you anti english, but that doesn't mean that there are certain factions aligned to the SNP that are and some on here are, as it has been proven. 

This is the 4th time of me asking and I know you have the right not answer if you don't want, but do you think that the break up of the UK has nothing to do with the english as many posters seem to think.

I will keep the post short as much longer ones seem not to get an answer on important issues.

I think it will concern many people but I do not see their concern as being of a higher importance than the desire for the majority of Scots, should they choose to take it, to be independent. But I still fail to understand why someone in, for example, Leeds should be upset because people in Inverness are governed from Edinburgh instead of London. 

[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, transam said:

Why not, Scots here keep mentioning Scots, and Scots controlled the UK with their Scots roots for well over a decade in Westminster, did these Scots stuff Scotland leading to the SNP trying to quosh the Union...? 

I would suggest that Blair is like Gove when it comes to being Scottish - it is handily forgotten when it suits him. 

But if you think that independence is about personalities, then I am afraid you are mistaken. 

[vogie]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

I think it will concern many people but I do not see their concern as being of a higher importance than the desire for the majority of Scots, should they choose to take it, to be independent. But I still fail to understand why someone in, for example, Leeds should be upset because people in Inverness are governed from Edinburgh instead of London. 

I'll take that as a yes then shall I. If we didn't share a border I would quite likely agree with you, and with a border comes extra responsibilities like our countries security. Of course should you get your separation from England and then ask to join the EU, the EU would stipulate a hard border between us. So don't trivialise the separation, it has a lot to do with the rest of the UK and England.

[transam]

15 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I would suggest that Blair is like Gove when it comes to being Scottish - it is handily forgotten when it suits him. 

But if you think that independence is about personalities, then I am afraid you are mistaken. 

No, its about MP's. No good dismissing the fact that Scots controlled the UK for many years..The SNP has one objective, removing itself from the Union, that's it. 

[PFMills]

Wee Jimmy Krankie needs  a sock in it

Edited July 30, 2020 by PFMills

[teatree]

Hardly true independence if you are then to go into the EU is it?

Get out of the UK, don't join the EU, and become a truly independent country.  I would respect that. 

 

Still, doubt the Scots will vote to leave anyway when the inevitable referendum comes in a few years.

[Nigel Garvie]

18 hours ago, vogie said:

Many would disagree with you about the country being run well, but to explain the popularity of the SNP someone said and I wouldn't argue with them: 

The whole SNP movement is built on hate.

Get the Scottish to hate the English

Get the English to hate the Scottish.

And worst of get Scottish to hate other Scots who you politically disagree with. HTH

Well I hold my hands up and acknowledge, that I did describe Unionists as traitors. It was in a moment of anger and frustration at a previous post, but not justifiable, anymore than it is to call Remainers the same. It is water under the bridge for me, least said soonest mended. I very rarely meet unionists, but I'm sure there must be some reasonable ones about.

 

I'm sorry,  but to say "The whole SNP movement is built on hate", is hyperbolic nonsense, and betrays a mean spirited view of those you disagree with. 

The twisted anti- immigrant sickness that runs like a barely concealed sewer through the English Nationalists, and receives plenty of airing (Not from you Vogie as I read) in this forum from Brexiteers is the opposite of what the SNP stands for. We have a real demographic problem in Scotland, and welcome the (Mainly) young people who come to live here, work and contribute to our society. Sturgeon has said this many times, they are welcome to make it their home. That of course has included many English over the years, just as many Scots live and work in England. 

 

The Scottish, with the exception of a few hotheads that you find in any society, definitely do not hate the English. The DNA evidence now is that we are all totally intermingled, in fact a bunch of mongrels. I am one, my Dad (Also one!) was born and brought up in Leeds, and served in a Yorkshire regiment through WW11. 

 

However, no amount of ranting about politics from any point of view, will ever disguise that there are huge cultural differences that go way beyond whisky, and kilts. Scots egalitarian social views have more in common with the Nordic countries than with England. 

 

We may despise the leaders that you elect, but we usually get on fine with the - generally mislead - people who elected them. 

 

 

[welovesundaysatspace]

45 minutes ago, teatree said:

Hardly true independence if you are then to go into the EU is it?

Get out of the UK, don't join the EU, and become a truly independent country.  I would respect that. 
 

EU members are sovereign. They can leave whenever and however they please. They are not forced to join. They have veto rights. They discuss four days and nights until everyone agrees. Compare that to being a vassal state of the UKSSR.

[transam]

2 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

EU members are sovereign. They can leave whenever and however they please. They are not forced to join. They have veto rights. They discuss four days and nights until everyone agrees. Compare that to being a vassal state of the UKSSR.

You're from the UKraine then..................????

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, vogie said:

what I strongly object to is saying that breaking up and the separation of The United Kingdom is nothing to do with the English,

Of course it has to do with the English, with 85% of the vote it has always been about the English.

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, transam said:

The SNP has one objective, removing itself from the Union, that's it. 

Of course your free to distort the facts, doesn't make it right.

The SNP MP's were elected on a manifesto, but you probably dispute that, which indicated as part of policy an intention to bring forward a vote.

It will be the people of Scotland that decide if Scotland should leave the union, in exactly the same way that the people of England decided the UK should leave the union. Why did Joe Cocker just come to mind?

[teatree]

26 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

EU members are sovereign. They can leave whenever and however they please. They are not forced to join. They have veto rights. They discuss four days and nights until everyone agrees. Compare that to being a vassal state of the UKSSR.

Ha...if the UK is such an oppressive, Soivet style dictatorship then why did it allow a democratic referendum on Scotland leaving?  What a load of dribble.

 

I bet Scotland gets THIRD referendum (after the next one is rejected) before Spain will allow Catalonia its first.  

[transam]

4 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Of course your free to distort the facts, doesn't make it right.

The SNP MP's were elected on a manifesto, but you probably dispute that, which indicated as part of policy an intention to bring forward a vote.

It will be the people of Scotland that decide if Scotland should leave the union, in exactly the same way that the people of England decided the UK should leave the union. Why did Joe Cocker just come to mind?

.......leave the UK and be controlled by Brussels and big daddy Germany.....????

 

Yeh, Scots freedom alright.............You do make me laugh....