UK PM Johnson cannot keep Scotland in union against its will: Sturgeon

[evadgib]

Ol' Godders is 'on form' & hits this nail firmly on the head IMO:

(Content rather than Poster to the usual culprits please!)

Edited December 18, 2019 by evadgib

[stevenl]

15 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Ol' Godders is 'on form' & hits this nail firmly on the head IMO:

(Content rather than Poster to the usual culprits please!)

Again, why should England be involved in a Scottish independency vote since the EU was not involved in the Brexit vote? See earlier posts about this.

[cleopatra2]

26 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Ol' Godders is 'on form' & hits this nail firmly on the head IMO:

(Content rather than Poster to the usual culprits please!)

He his wrong on the English having a vote on Scottish referendum.

It is a well established principle of Self Determination.

 

Imagine the scenario the Scots vote to leave but the Non Scots vote against independence. 

 

Or the reverse , Scots vote remain Non Scots vote to throw them out.

 

 

[evadgib]

12 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

He his wrong on the English having a vote on Scottish referendum.

It is a well established principle of Self Determination.

 

Imagine the scenario the Scots vote to leave but the Non Scots vote against independence. 

 

Or the reverse , Scots vote remain Non Scots vote to throw them out.

That is preciously what I think would happen which is why HMG & the majority of Scots (SNP are not the majority) quake at the thought.

 

We're better off together but this would really call their bluff & if they don't like the result they will only have themselves to blame.

Edited December 18, 2019 by evadgib

[cleopatra2]

3 minutes ago, evadgib said:

That is preciously what I think would happen which is why HMG & the majority of Scots (SNP are not the majority) quake at the thought.

 

We're better off together but this would really call their bluff.

To include Non Scots the result would not be recognized. 

Simply it would contravene the UN principle of Self Determination.

 

Would you advocate a similiar position for a colony wishing to determining if it wanted to be independent.

[evadgib]

29 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Again, why should England be involved in a Scottish independency vote since the EU was not involved in the Brexit vote? See earlier posts about this.

Explained/rebuffed ad nausium 

[nkg]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

Apparently this is known as the union dividend...

 

Another example is how share of UK debt is allocated. Who would have thought that Scotland, with a little over 8% of the population, would account for 21% of the UK's deficit? Good god - how can we ever contemplate independence if our finances are so precarious?

 

We should take a leaf out of the book of those canny English - 84% of the population but responsible for only 45% of the deficit? In fact, if you look at below, Scotland, Wales & N Ireland combined make up around 16% of the UK population but account for 55% of the UK's deficit. What is going on? Can the English really be as canny as I suggested? Why keep holding on to these obvious basket cases? 

 

 

 

Speaking of debts, if Scotland want to leave the UK, it is only fitting that they pay their "divorce bill".

 

The national debt is £1821 billion and Scotland are 8.4% of the population, so ......

 

1821*8.4/100

 

That's £153 billion you need to stump up before you can leave, Scotland. And we won't accept Scottish banknotes ????

 

 

[evadgib]

9 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

To include Non Scots the result would not be recognized. 

Simply it would contravene the UN principle of Self Determination.

 

Would you advocate a similiar position for a colony wishing to determining if it wanted to be independent.

Possibly, but only if it was bolted on to the (single) country it was leaving for 300+ years, cleared it's bills and didn't try to run off with the family silver.

[sammieuk1]

Its panto season again oh yes he can????

[stevenl]

1 hour ago, evadgib said:

Explained/rebuffed ad nausium 

No, not at all. Only melvinmelvin made an attempt, and I replied to that with some argumentation. All others simply say 'it is different', no reasoning at all.

[RuamRudy]

 

53 minutes ago, nkg said:

 

Speaking of debts, if Scotland want to leave the UK, it is only fitting that they pay their "divorce bill".

 

The national debt is £1821 billion and Scotland are 8.4% of the population, so ......

 

1821*8.4/100

 

That's £153 billion you need to stump up before you can leave, Scotland. And we won't accept Scottish banknotes ????

 

 

I am not entirely sure that's how it works...

[john terry1001]

58 minutes ago, nkg said:

That's £153 billion you need to stump up before you can leave, Scotland. And we won't accept Scottish banknotes ????

And that's just the start of paying your way yourselves. You'll have to:

 

Set up and pay for your own health system. No free NHS available to you after independence.

 

Pay for your own local Government. No more subsidies from the UK.

 

Set up and pay for your own Social Services system. Again no more UK subsidies.

 

No more going south for work. As an independent Nation, no more slipping over the border, you'll have to apply for visas under the new points based immigration system, just like people from any other country.

 

And Scottish pensioners, do you realise the value of any of your pensions paid by the UK Government will be frozen from the day you become an Independent Country, the same as it is for all of us who live outside the UK. No more annual increases from the UK for you........................????

 

???? ???? ???? ???? ????

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, john terry1001 said:

And that's just the start of paying your way yourselves. You'll have to:

 

Set up and pay for your own health system. No free NHS available to you after independence.

 

Pay for your own local Government. No more subsidies from the UK.

 

Set up and pay for your own Social Services system. Again no more UK subsidies.

 

No more going south for work. As an independent Nation, no more slipping over the border, you'll have to apply for visas under the new points based immigration system, just like people from any other country.

 

And Scottish pensioners, do you realise the value of any of your pensions paid by the UK Government will be frozen from the day you become an Independent Country, the same as it is for all of us who live outside the UK. No more annual increases from the UK for you........................????

 

???? ???? ???? ???? ????

Just to be clear, are you suggesting that there are no hospitals currently in Scotland or are you proposing that we hand them all back?

 

I must say that I admire your confidence about the continuing attraction of England leading to Scots 'slipping over the border'.

 

I personally think our pensioners will be better off - the billions which currently disappear in Westminster corridors will go a long way to redressing the fact that the UK currently treats its pensioners in such a tawdry manner.

[nkg]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

I am not entirely sure that's how it works...

 

Well, if you don't believe me, here is Scottish former Prime Minister Gordon Brown to explain things:

 

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/independence-condemn-scots-20-years-12776467
 

Quote

 

Independence would condemn Scotland to 20 years of debt misery.

 

Even the SNP figures show that the economy would suffer following a Yes vote.

 

 

Quote

 

Each year, an additional £10billion in debt would be added to our liabilities as, year after year, the SNP borrow more and more money to replace the fiscal support we currently receive through the UK-wide Barnett formula.

 

After 10 years of independence, Scotland will have a total debt of nearly £250billion – the £150billion or so of legacy debt from our share of UK debt and then new debt of £100billion.

 

Total debt interest payments would be more than £7.5 billion a year.

 

That’s money spent on debt interest which is so huge that it is more than half the current budget of the NHS and nearly as much as we spend today on education.

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by nkg
Brexit

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, nkg said:

 

Well, if you don't believe me, here is Scottish former Prime Minister Gordon Brown to explain things:

 

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/independence-condemn-scots-20-years-12776467

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just to be clear, is this the week when Gordon Brown is declared a financial genius? Will he revert back to 'the worst chancellor ever' next week or is his status flexible depending upon the message? 

[Rookiescot]

5 hours ago, evadgib said:

Ol' Godders is 'on form' & hits this nail firmly on the head IMO:

(Content rather than Poster to the usual culprits please!)

So this guy thinks the EU should have had a vote on Brexit?

[melvinmelvin]

6 hours ago, stevenl said:

@ melvinmelvin

 

I'm surprised you did not answer. We don't always agree but you do give arguments for your opinions, so I would be interested in your opinion on my reply.

Of course you don't have to answer. Unless I missed it?

 

(took me a while to find those relevant entries again,

 this TVF "software" is so much worse than what I was used to use, hopeless case this TVF app is)

 

Now; some reasons why I didn't comment on your entry;

+ didna detect a question in it

+ your opinion is OK and different from mine, so what? no need to beat that to death

+ hammering on this could easily lead to an exchange of views linked to

   constitutional law and other legal matters, that would somewhat divert from the gist of this thread

+ I made my point, so did you, OK to leave it at that

 

Having said that, I also think that the last point i my entry is very relevant.

 

As you say, emotions easily run high when discussing these issues,

(who would have thought pommies were capable of emotions outside of football?)

with boiloing/simmering emotions it often is fruitful to focus on formalities

 

 

[Bluespunk]

4 hours ago, john terry1001 said:

And that's just the start of paying your way yourselves. You'll have to:

 

Set up and pay for your own health system. No free NHS available to you after independence.

 

Pay for your own local Government. No more subsidies from the UK.

 

Set up and pay for your own Social Services system. Again no more UK subsidies.

 

No more going south for work. As an independent Nation, no more slipping over the border, you'll have to apply for visas under the new points based immigration system, just like people from any other country.

 

And Scottish pensioners, do you realise the value of any of your pensions paid by the UK Government will be frozen from the day you become an Independent Country, the same as it is for all of us who live outside the UK. No more annual increases from the UK for you........................????

 

???? ???? ???? ???? ????

Project fear has begun...

[nkg]

34 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Just to be clear, is this the week when Gordon Brown is declared a financial genius? Will he revert back to 'the worst chancellor ever' next week or is his status flexible depending upon the message? 

 

You don't need to be a financial genius to work out that Scotland will end up massively in debt should they become independent.

 

Ironic that you are challenging Brown's credibility when he says something that you don't agree with. Obviously I should have quoted a Tory politician instead, maybe George Osborne or Alistair Darling.

 

 

[RuamRudy]

7 minutes ago, nkg said:

You don't need to be a financial genius to work out that Scotland will end up massively in debt should they become independent.

More massively in debt than the UK is now? Can you quantify it?

 

7 minutes ago, nkg said:

Ironic that you are challenging Brown's credibility when he says something that you don't agree with.

The last time I agreed with Brown, it was in relation to a bigoted old woman.

 

8 minutes ago, nkg said:

Obviously I should have quoted a Tory politician instead, maybe George Osborne or Alistair Darling.

Please tell me that you are actually not serious...

[john terry1001]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Just to be clear, are you suggesting that there are no hospitals currently in Scotland or are you proposing that we hand them all back?

I'm simply suggesting that, after independence, the health system in Scotland will no longer be part of, or funded by, the NHS and all of the health system needs to be totally funded by Scotland. Of course you won't need to hand them back.......but the outstanding balance of any prior investment made by the UK should form part of the divorce bill.  

[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, john terry1001 said:

I'm simply suggesting that, after independence, the health system in Scotland will no longer be part of, or funded by, the NHS and all of the health system needs to be totally funded by Scotland. Of course you won't need to hand them back.......but the outstanding balance of any prior investment made by the UK should form part of the divorce bill.  

I am confused by that last statement - as we have been part of the UK for 300 years most public infrastructure has been funded by central government. Do suggest we need to pay back the cost of all the roads, schools, hospitals etc?

[puipuitom]

On 12/17/2019 at 9:19 AM, Laughing Gravy said:

I know so continued to be ruled by the Germans. You must love it????

Better ruled by the Germans, with a strong currency, and a full representation in parliament, as under British rule ( ask the Scots, and Irish) , with an election system in which the person with just one vote more as the competition get the seat, for 650 baronies each ( and all other votes are evaporated), and even one of the two Houses of Parliament being appointed instead of elected ( HoL).

[nkg]

28 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

More massively in debt than the UK is now? Can you quantify it?

 

The last time I agreed with Brown, it was in relation to a bigoted old woman.

 

Please tell me that you are actually not serious...

 

What supporters of Scottish independence really want to do is to "skip town" on their debt - leave their £150 billion share of the national debt for the rest of Britain to pay.

 

You have no intention of paying, have you?

[Number 6]

 

 

[Laughing Gravy]

14 minutes ago, puipuitom said:

Better ruled by the Germans, with a strong currency, and a full representation in parliament, as under British rule ( ask the Scots, and Irish) , with an election system in which the person with just one vote more as the competition get the seat, for 650 baronies each ( and all other votes are evaporated), and even one of the two Houses of Parliament being appointed instead of elected ( HoL).

You are a wind up merchant with nothing better to do. You must have such a boring existence you have to spend most of your time watching another countries politics.

 

Glad that you admit you are ruled by the Germans. The only worthwhile thing you have said on here for ages.????

 

Don't expect a reply back, as I have better things to do and it won't be watching Dutch TV.

 

[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, nkg said:

 

What supporters of Scottish independence really want to do is to "skip town" on their debt - leave their £150 billion share of the national debt for the rest of Britain to pay.

 

You have no intention of paying, have you?

Is this prediction based upon anything other than petty, small mindedness?

[nkg]

4 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Is this prediction based upon anything other than petty, small mindedness?

 

Ah, then you think that Scotland should pay the £150 billion they owe? Somehow I doubt it ????

Edited December 18, 2019 by nkg
Brexit

[RuamRudy]

Just now, nkg said:

 

Ah, then you think that Scotland should pay the £150 billion they owe?

I have never made any suggestion that Scotland should not face up to its obligations, but as you think Alistair Darling was a Tory chancellor, I would prefer that the final bill was calculated by someone a bit more familiar with international economics.

[john terry1001]

52 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I am confused by that last statement - as we have been part of the UK for 300 years most public infrastructure has been funded by central government. Do suggest we need to pay back the cost of all the roads, schools, hospitals etc?

You have benefited from the infrastructure of the last 300+ years, the same as the rest of us. That's not the issue. As an example, it's the projected future infrastructure for Scotland that's already been paid for by the whole of the UK, but will only benefit Scotland that I'm talking about.

Any costs would mean that Scotland only paid about 9% of the total but would receive 100% of the benefit while the rest of the uk pay 91% of the cost but receive zero % of the benefits. That sort of anomaly has got to be included as part of any divorce settlement.