Bailing Out / Jumpin Ship

[dcnx]

On 12/25/2019 at 1:12 PM, BritManToo said:

I didn't notice any change in attitude either, but then I don't interact with Thais beyond simple commerce.

(apart from the ones I'm sleeping with, but they probably come under 'simple commerce')

???? Post of the day.

[tingtongfarang]

On 12/22/2019 at 1:39 PM, CMNightRider said:

We travel in much different circles.  Almost without exception, the people I know who have left Thailand over their increasing idiotic rules have enough money to live any where they want.

Of the 3 friends i know who have jumped ship 2 were under 50 and felt the elite option was taking the <deleted>, So after years here and even learning to speak read and write are gone,

The 3rd was married and had 2 daughters at international school, He worried about the level of education they received in the first years...the day they came home speaking like carmen miranda was the last straw,

All 3 were/are financially endowed , to live most anywhere.

[canthai55]

The biggest obstacle is the requirement for Health Insurance from a list of Thai providers.

Underwhelming coverage, and a no go for those of us getting ... Ahem - Long in the Tooth

Non O still available - but unless you have a crystal ball ... who knows how long

Elite Visa ? Again ... for how long

The not knowing is the most worrisome

[steve187]

59 minutes ago, tingtongfarang said:

Of the 3 friends i know who have jumped ship 2 were under 50 and felt the elite option was taking the <deleted>, So after years here and even learning to speak read and write are gone,

The 3rd was married and had 2 daughters at international school, He worried about the level of education they received in the first years...the day they came home speaking like carmen miranda was the last straw,

All 3 were/are financially endowed , to live most anywhere.

there is no other long term solution to staying long term in Thailand under 50, and unmarried, so its elite or repeated VE/tourist visa

[BritManToo]

On 12/23/2019 at 11:43 AM, Letseng said:

The same problem re medical insurance requirement  is about to hit Brits who have retired to Germany, Austria, Spain etc. Tks to Brexit. You think Thailand immigration is awkward. 

They've all agreed to give Brit residents PR, and allow them to join the countries social health systems.

No insurance required, you can apply for PR up until the end of 2020.

That's the current Brexit deal on the table, and the same deal for Euros living in the UK.

[sanemax]

30 minutes ago, steve187 said:

there is no other long term solution to staying long term in Thailand under 50, and unmarried, so its elite or repeated VE/tourist visa

And its very difficult now, if not impossible to stay in Thailand on repeated TV/VE

[fhickson]

yeah, its going south for me as well. im likely on my last long term visit now. been here about 5 or so years.

 

came back last year, not real excited about the trip, but did have the affordable dental i needed and also cheap flight ticket usa to bkk hub.

 

one difference is im no longer happy or excited to be here. it feels more like a tiring business trip. big red flag for me.

 

im under 50. flying back to the states for the metv is bs. flight is very long and tiring. border hopping every 2 months for the metv is bs as well. getting expensive, finding good housing a pain in the <deleted> on short trips if you dont want to live like a backpacker or cant afford to live in expensive hotels the whole time.

 

 

[emptypockets]

On 12/25/2019 at 8:26 AM, WhatupThailand said:

Bottom Line: Who benefits from all the Insane Rules ?

And please spare me from the "Thailand can make their own rules BS", they said much the same when Pol Pot was ruining Cambodia.

Please for one moment, use your Brain, and think about why Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos, and Myanmar, have Visa's with little to no red tape, where you pay once a year with no other hassles.

Can anyone say, Because the Corruption leads to supporting the Banking and Insurance Cronies ?

Do these Rules in any way Help the Thai People ?

Money Locked in a Bank does not help the local economy,

where it could be used as a positive factor.

Now we see the Insurance which is no real Insurance at all, only a clever way to extract more money from those held hostage by Mr Big and his Cronies.

Not to mention all the "Where are you" stupidity,

that does nothing but create makeshift paper work, because real criminals will never follow this.

 

So wake up and get real, or continue down the road of Insanity.

Make a real solution for Health Care by putting everyone coming into Thailand, onto the Thai SS system, with monthly payments into the system, based on length of stay.

Make all Visa and Extensions a Pay and forget system, like all the other countries, and get rid of all the other Red Tape make work BS.

 

Do just these two things, and see how Thailand can start to Smile again.

 

 

 

Thailand has visas with very little red tape too. Darn sight easier to stay long term in Thailand than Myanmar. Thailand would be one of the easiest places to stay long term, if you have money. If you don't have sufficient money then you should not entertain the fantasy of living anywhere else apart from your home country.

[emptypockets]

On 12/25/2019 at 11:11 AM, digibum said:

Because the countries you mentioned don't have nearly 40 million tourist arrivals and they're trying to encourage people to come there. 

 

But, I suspect that if we take a look at Vietnam in, say, 10 or 20 years, it's likely they will also start making it more difficult for foreigners. 

 

I think you can follow that trend anywhere in the world.  Nations often welcome expats and tourists with open arms when it benefits their economy/citizens (and they are in need), but, eventually, once they hit a certain point of economic prosperity, they start to tighten the rules. 

 

Depends on how you look at it. 

 

If you could have 1,000 expats that spend 800,000 baht a year (each) in Thailand or you could choose to have 500 expats that spent 1.6 million baht a year (each), which would you choose? 

 

Thais have obviously chosen less expats but are attempting to get expats likely to spend more money. 

 

I'm not saying that their plan is working, or that it's fair, but it's a possible alternative to the one you've presented. 

 

I think you also need to acknowledge the fact that the 800K requirement has remained unchanged for something like 20+ years (I don't know, it could be much longer but that's as far back as I could find references to 800K for a retirement visa). 

 

800K 20 years ago was a lot more money than it is today.  If the retirement visa requirements had been inflation adjusted, according to this website, retirees should have to put over 1.1 million in the bank today. 

 

So, to your question as to who benefits, it looks like any retiree today that couldn't afford to bank 1.1 million. 

 

The guy that can't leave 800K in the bank probably isn't spending 1.1 million in the local economy anyway. 

 

True that their first crack at this has resulted in poor choices to choose from, but, it is also true that a lot of expats barely have two satang to rub together and they get sick and die here with no way to pay for their medical treatment or death. 

 

Personally, I couldn't imagine living in Thailand without health insurance or the ability to fund my own health care (and I do think a lot of people saying they "self-insure" are actually just spinning a roulette wheel and hoping for the best). 
 

 

Agreed, many of these rules are a hassle and take up too much time and effort.  However, based on reports from other TV members, the TM30 is not enforced strictly everywhere, and may eventually just die a quiet death given all of the negative backlash.  And the 90-day reporting has at least gone online which means you can avoid having go to immigration every 90 days. 

 

 

I like that idea, however, I do think I can already see some problems.  What about the six-month a year retiree?  The guy that comes here on a 1-year visa but only stays about six-months out of the year and spends the other six either in another country or back in their own country.  Won't TV have threads talking about insanely stupid this is and how they're getting ripped off paying for a full year and how the government is just trying to milk them? 

 

And if you mean that you only pay while you are actually in the country, how would you prevent people like the part-time retiree from abusing the system by returning to Thailand only when they needed major medical procedures.  For instance, you're living part-time in Bali and you find out that you have early stage cancer and you fly back to Thailand for treatment and stick Thai SS with the bill?

 

What kind of convoluted rules would you need to come up with to implement such a plan?  How many TV threads would there be from innocent people caught up in those convoluted rules? 

 

The devil is always in the details and once you get into the details, that's where you start having to make hard decisions. 

 

Why would any country decide to allow an ageing demographic access to their health care system on demand, contributing or not? Quick way to bankrupt the system.

 

If, as some people allude to, the Thai government, immigration etc , actually read this forum then it is hardly surprising that they may form the view that Thailand does not need, or is in fact, better off without the moaners,whiners and whingers that have apparently called Thailand home. In some perverse way they are actually facilitating the said moaners, whiners and whingers in their quest to find that elusive Nirvana that many apparently think they are entitled to for no other reason than to have lived long enough to reach pensionable age.

[emptypockets]

On 12/25/2019 at 11:40 AM, simon43 said:

 

 

 

My understanding is that you only pay the high fee IF your PR application is successful.

 

As for getting PR in Thailand, and the need to have paid 3 years of Thai tax, why not come over to Laos?  You can get PR without paying any taxes or having worked.  The waiting period is longer (10 years), but there are ways to reduce that period.  For example, as a scientist, I should be able to get PR after 5 years.

But you'd still be in Laos. Not really my idea of the perfect retirement place after a lifetime of work. But hey, if it works for you go for it. There is always Bangladesh if Laos doesn't work out.

[emptypockets]

On 12/25/2019 at 3:50 PM, saengd said:

That's what's keeping many of us here...I don't mean your Mrs., I mean our respective spouses!!! ????

Lack of money and the subsequent inability to leave is closer to the truth for a lot of people. Made their bed and now must lay in it no matter how uncomfortable it may be.

[barrykay]

International Living has just released it's top 24 places to retire in 2020. Thailand has slipped down to 17th. for years it was in the top 5. it received a score of 57 out of 100 for visas and residency. 35 percent below Malaysia. it had the lowest score for this division in the top 24. the only thing that kept Thailand in the top 24 was it's score of 87 percent for cost of living and as we know the strong Baht is going to kill this score. all the BS and false attempts to put sunglasses on a pig is not disguising the truth and that is why people are bailing out.

[hmficc]

2 hours ago, emptypockets said:

Lack of money and the subsequent inability to leave is closer to the truth for a lot of people. Made their bed and now must lay in it no matter how uncomfortable it may be.

You’ve butter your bread. Now lie in it.

[hmficc]

On 12/23/2019 at 4:57 AM, RedPill said:

Food for thought ????

 

... but something strange happened to me. I start to like Somtam Thai ... out of sudden, after many years not even touching it ????

 

Scrotum Thai? Really?

[amexpat]

3 hours ago, emptypockets said:

Why would any country decide to allow an ageing demographic access to their health care system on demand, contributing or not? Quick way to bankrupt the system.

Some do and it hasn't.

[emptypockets]

44 minutes ago, amexpat said:

Some do and it hasn't.

Which countries allow tourists to enter their health care scheme?

[AussieBob18]

Back in 2016 the Head of Thai Immigration (under orders from above) started the “Good guys in, bad guys out”  Program. 

 

Since then there has been a lot of rule changes, and application of old rules (TM30), that have resulted in the Bad Guys and the Good Guys leaving Thailand. But at the same time there has been Nil changes that have encouraged the Good Guys to stay, or any Good Guys to come and stay. 

 

Xenophobia, Incompetence, Ignorance, Corruption, Bureaucracy, and 'dont give a ****' about any complaints by Expats - all of those are the reasons that have lead to the current situation and reality.  Many Expats that can leave have left Thailand, and many Expats are planning/thinking about it.  I did leave in 2017 - and now we visit Thailand each year. 

 

I researched and visited most viable SEAsia overseas retirement options in 2010-2011.  Back then it was easier to retire and live in Indonesia (Bali), Malaysia, Phillipines, Singapore, India, than it was in Thailand - but it was not a lot more difficult, and IMO it was the best option.  Since then all those other countries, and now Vietnam and Laos, have remained easier than Thailand - not one of them has made the same negative changes towards retired Expats - most have stayed the same or have made it easier.  And the truth is that aside from Visa issues, Thailand is no longer the obvious number one choice for Expats looking to retire and live due to the increased costs of living.

 

Unless Thailand gives me some serious encouragement, I aint going to live full-time in Thailand ever again.  I love Thailand and enjoy being here very much, but I hate what is now demanded from me in order to live here.  Back in 2012 it was clear and easy how to stay and it was worth it. That has all changed and that is why I dont live full-time in Thailand, and never will again unless things change. And as I have a Thai wife, the other countries are no longer an option. 

 

I once received some advice from a long term Expat that I am eternally greateful for - never buy a property in Thailand.  Things can change suddenly and quickly he said - and you may need to change your living plans as a result.  2014 and the resultant changes and then the 2016 'clampdown' made me to change mine and as I was renting it was much easier than if I had owned a place.

 

 

[fhickson]

7 hours ago, emptypockets said:

Which countries allow tourists to enter their health care scheme?

the ones with more money where its more expensive to live there.

 

i think france and ireland do if you live there a certain amount of time, go through hoops etc.

 

just dont try doing it if your skint.

[dcnx]

15 hours ago, emptypockets said:

Thailand has visas with very little red tape too. Darn sight easier to stay long term in Thailand than Myanmar. Thailand would be one of the easiest places to stay long term, if you have money. If you don't have sufficient money then you should not entertain the fantasy of living anywhere else apart from your home country.

If you have money you have options. If you have options you’re a fool for choosing Thailand unless you have to be here for work purposes or you married a local. 

[fhickson]

34 minutes ago, dcnx said:

If you have money you have options. If you have options you’re a fool for choosing Thailand unless you have to be here for work purposes or you married a local. 

or temples...

[Mike Teavee]

On 12/27/2019 at 6:46 PM, dcnx said:

If you have money you have options. If you have options you’re a fool for choosing Thailand unless you have to be here for work purposes or you married a local. 

A few people have expressed the same view, but nobody ever says where they would be if they "Had Money".

 

So where would you go if you had an indexed linked, guaranteed monthly income of... 

• <=50,000 THB
• 50-100,000 THB
• 100-150,000 THB
• 150-250,000 THB
• > 250,000  

 

 

 

[Mike Teavee]

On 12/27/2019 at 9:48 AM, AussieBob18 said:

Back then it was easier to retire and live in Indonesia (Bali), Malaysia, Phillipines, Singapore, India, than it was in Thailand - but it was not a lot more difficult, and IMO it was the best option.  Since then all those other countries, and now Vietnam and Laos, have remained easier than Thailand

 

If it's easy for you to retire in Singapore, you can retire almost anywhere on the planet as the only option available as a non-PR/Citizen would be the Investment route which is a minimum investment of s$2.5 Million ((> 55 Million THB).

 

You could buy UK citizenship cheaper (IIRC it's £1 Million, approx 40 Million THB) 

 

 

 

[BritManToo]

On 12/27/2019 at 7:40 AM, amexpat said:

Some do and it hasn't.

Also needs mentioning that the Thai health system doesn't pay for expensive medications or 'spare parts'.

Patients can use the (extremely cheap) medications the hospitals are prepared to issue, or they can buy their own elsewhere.

Most of the western health systems are being destroyed by the prices charged by 'big pharma', which Thailand (quite sensibly) refuses to pay.

[BritManToo]

3 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

but nobody ever says where they would be if they "Had Money".

 

I've always said quite clearly the Seychelles or Mauritius, but probably not full time.

Most very wealthy people have houses all around the world (probably not Thailand).

[BritManToo]

On 12/27/2019 at 4:13 PM, fhickson said:

i think france and ireland do if you live there a certain amount of time, go through hoops etc.

if you're a Brit, you can buy a rundown farm in France for 10,000 Euros, then sign up for PR and their health system anytime before the end of 2020. Hardly any hoops, just opening a bank account and filling out a few government forms.

 

I might do it in April 2020, seen plenty of farms for sale in the 10k-20k Euro range.

Have been looking in the region between Lyon and Limoges, lots of National parks.

[madmen]

17 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

if you're a Brit, you can buy a rundown farm in France for 10,000 Euros, then sign up for PR and their health system anytime before the end of 2020. Hardly any hoops, just opening a bank account and filling out a few government forms.

 

I might do it in April 2020, seen plenty of farms for sale in the 10k-20k Euro range.

Have been looking in the region between Lyon and Limoges, lots of National parks.

You've been talking about this fantasy for years but you already live in a farm house in Thailand .Cost of living will be a shock

[Gweiloman]

4 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

A few people have expressed the same view, but nobody ever says where they would be if they "Had Money".

 

So where would you go if you had an indexed linked, guaranteed monthly income of... 

• <=50,000 THB
• 50-100,000 THB
• 100-150,000 THB
• 150-250,000 THB
• > 250,000  

 

 

 

Malaysia is probably the best option. 
 

- low cost of living 

- fairly high standard of living

- good infrastructure 

- good medical facilities 

- best local food with good options for international food

- good pubs/bars for hanging out (not for pure sex tourists though)

- good air connections 

- hassle free immigration

- able to own property 

- educated workforce 

- lots of English speakers 

[Mike Teavee]

33 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

if you're a Brit, you can buy a rundown farm in France for 10,000 Euros, then sign up for PR and their health system anytime before the end of 2020. Hardly any hoops, just opening a bank account and filling out a few government forms.

 

I might do it in April 2020, seen plenty of farms for sale in the 10k-20k Euro range.

Have been looking in the region between Lyon and Limoges, lots of National parks.

Why bother buying & why France not Portugal?

[BritManToo]

17 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Why bother buying & why France not Portugal?

I don't speak Portuguese.

[AussieBob18]

7 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

If it's easy for you to retire in Singapore, you can retire almost anywhere on the planet as the only option available as a non-PR/Citizen would be the Investment route which is a minimum investment of s$2.5 Million ((> 55 Million THB).

You could buy UK citizenship cheaper (IIRC it's £1 Million, approx 40 Million THB) 

You are right about costs - but I meant easier in that you knew exactly what you had to do to stay and all the rights and privileges and obligations that would be applied to you.  Malaysia offered the best package overall but it cost a bit (but much less than Singapore) as they only wanted 'wuality' retirees - not the trash that was going to Thailand at the time.  Malaysia is now cheaper than Thailand - but they gave you a lot of benefits and rights.  Malaysia still does offer those rights, but Thailand has put up their costs tyo be more, but they have not not given any extra rights or privileges - and still retained 90 days, TM40s, annual extensions, permission to re-enter, etc etc etc. (and all at an extra cost)