Best Options for quick travel to UK?

[Formaleins]

Wonder if anyone has any suggestions here - My mother has been diagnosed with a pretty nasty cancer and I need to get back to the UK in the next couple of weeks. However, she is wanting to see her grandson - He is a Thai citizen with a VALID Thai passport, but he also has British Citizenship and holds an EXPIRED British Passport.

 

Any ideas as which is the easiest way for him to travel? and as fast as possible?

 

I thought that travelling out on the expired UK passport might be an option, some say you can do this others say you cannot. How about an Emergency Passport from the UK Embassy in Bangkok? Getting a new UK passport will take more than 2 weeks so really is not an option - Is there an express visa service where he could get a UK visa in his Thai passport by showing the expired UK passport and UK birth certificate?

 

Any suggestions appreciated, we need to do this as fast as possible. Cheers! (We are up North and travelling to Bangkok is a day each way so it is not exactly that easy)

Edited January 5, 2020 by Formaleins

[FritsSikkink]

You can't travel out on expired foreign passport. He has to leave (and enter back in Thailand) on his Thai passport.

I don't know what the UK would do if you show up with an expired UK passport.

[Formaleins]

3 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

You can't travel out on expired foreign passport. He has to leave (and enter back in Thailand) on his Thai passport.

I don't know what the UK would do if you show up with an expired UK passport.

See this is not what I am being told, many people are saying he can EXIT Thailand on an EXPIRED UK Passport - which kind of makes sense in a way as it is still proof of ID. Br interested to hear a few more comments on this as it seems like our easiest option, but probably the most awkward.

 

[FritsSikkink]

4 minutes ago, Formaleins said:

See this is not what I am being told, many people are saying he can EXIT Thailand on an EXPIRED UK Passport - which kind of makes sense in a way as it is still proof of ID. Br interested to hear a few more comments on this as it seems like our easiest option, but probably the most awkward.

 

You need a valid travel document to leave the country. He could enter Thailand on an expired Thai passport as he is a citizen.

[Formaleins]

9 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

You need a valid travel document to leave the country. He could enter Thailand on an expired Thai passport as he is a citizen.

OK thanks! But then by same logic, he could enter the UK on an expired UK passport? It is the bit at the airport that is confusing - his Thai passport is VALID but has no UK Visa, but if he could check in with the counter staff using the expired UK passport, then as far as Thai immigration goes they will let him leave using his valid Thai passport - After that I don't give a toss, I will fight the jobsworth <deleted>s in the UK once I get there, they are not the problem.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Formaleins

[CharlieK]

Probably your best option would be to phone the UK embassy and ask them! They can tell you if he can enter the UK with his expired passport. As mentioned he would have to leave Thailand with his Thai passport. 

[Salerno]

9 minutes ago, Formaleins said:

OK thanks! But then by same logic, he could enter the UK on an expired UK passport?

Leave on Thai passport; show expired UK on arrival (citizens aren't refused entry due to an expired passport).

BUT

The issue is the airline might not let you on. Best bet, call the embassy and ask for an emergency travel permit.

[richard_smith237]

Your Son has to depart Thailand on the same passport he entered on. 

Thus, if he entered Thailand on his Thai passport, he has to leave on his Thai Passport. 

If your Son has never left Thailand, he should depart on his Thai Passport. 

 

One issue to consider is the Airline Check-In process: 

If you are presenting your sons Thai Passport at the Airline Check-In, he will need a Visa. 

If you are presenting your sons expired UK passport, this may raise issues with the Airline who may refuse your travel.

 

Thus, whether or not your son can enter the UK with an expired British passport may be a moot point. 

 

In your shoes I would be calling the British Embassy to secure a valid travel document for your son.

 

https://www.gov.uk/emergency-travel-document

 

On this link it states that you should apply for an Emergency travel document if all of the following apply: 

 

You can apply for an emergency travel document if all the following apply:

- you’re a British national

- you’re outside the UK

- your passport has been lost, stolen, damaged, is full, has recently expired or is with HM Passport Office or a foreign embassy

- you do not have time to renew or replace your passport before you travel

- you can provide proof of your travel plans, for example booking confirmations (or detailed written travel plans if you cannot book ahead)

[Formaleins]

Just now, Salerno said:

Leave on Thai passport; show expired UK on arrival (citizens aren't refused entry due to an expired passport).

BUT

The issue is the airline might not let you on. Best bet, call the embassy and ask for an emergency travel permit.

I found this online - ""If you want to enter the UK as a British citizen and you have an expired UK passport, your case is covered by Paragraph 12 of the Immigration Rules... ... If you want to enter the UK as a British citizen, you need to show them a UK passport. There is no stipulation in the rule that says the passport must be current." - The major factor is getting the airline to accept it!

[Formaleins]

1 minute ago, richard_smith237 said:

Your Son has to depart Thailand on the same passport he entered on. 

Thus, if he entered Thailand on his Thai passport, he has to leave on his Thai Passport. 

If your Son has never left Thailand, he should depart on his Thai Passport. 

 

One issue to consider is the Airline Check-In process: 

If you are presenting your sons Thai Passport at the Airline Check-In, he will need a Visa. 

If you are presenting your sons expired UK passport, this may raise issues with the Airline who may refuse your travel.

 

Thus, whether or not your son can enter the UK with an expired British passport may be a moot point. 

 

In your shoes I would be calling the British Embassy to secure a valid travel document for your son.

 

https://www.gov.uk/emergency-travel-document

 

On this link it states that you should apply for an Emergency travel document if all of the following apply: 

 

You can apply for an emergency travel document if all the following apply:

- you’re a British national

- you’re outside the UK

- your passport has been lost, stolen, damaged, is full, has recently expired or is with HM Passport Office or a foreign embassy

- you do not have time to renew or replace your passport before you travel

- you can provide proof of your travel plans, for example booking confirmations (or detailed written travel plans if you cannot book ahead)

Thanks, I understand what you are saying, makes sense.

[NanLaew]

38 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

You can't travel out on expired foreign passport. He has to leave (and enter back in Thailand) on his Thai passport.

I don't know what the UK would do if you show up with an expired UK passport.

No country will refuse entry to it's own citizen due to that persons home country passport being expired.

 

The OP's kid departs Thailand on the Thai passport, enters the UK on the expired British one.

 

The OP can get a new UK passport for the kid while he's home in the UK.

 

Then re-enter Thailand on the Thai passport.

 

The airline won't question it especially if they are the point-to-point carrier. They know these rules. If the OP is doing low-cost with third-country stopovers and/or carrier changes, problems may arise. However, European airports have proper airside transit so no need for anyone to get upset if you aren't trying to actually enter that third country, ie, pass their immigration.

 

Good luck.

Edited January 5, 2020 by NanLaew

[Formaleins]

9 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

No country will refuse entry to it's own citizen due to that persons home country passport being expired.

 

The OP's kid departs Thailand on the Thai passport, enters the UK on the expired British one.

 

The OP can get a new UK passport for the kid while he's home in the UK.

 

Then re-enter Thailand on the Thai passport.

 

The airline won't question it especially if they are the point-to-point carrier. They know these rules. If the OP is doing low-cost with third-country stopovers and/or carrier changes, problems may arise. However, European airports have proper airside transit so no need for anyone to get upset if you aren't trying to actually enter that third country, ie, pass their immigration.

 

Good luck.

Cheers, I will probably apply for the emergency travel document - the one that costs 100 Quid as it seems the safest route to go - However, once in the UK we will renew he British passport locally so we end up evenly ripped off from our home country in the end.

[blackcab]

12 hours ago, Formaleins said:

Is there an express visa service where he could get a UK visa in his Thai passport by showing the expired UK passport and UK birth certificate?

 

Visas cannot and will not be issued to British Citizens. A visa places restrictions on the recipient, and a British Citizen cannot be restricted in this way.

[theoldgit]

NanLeaw is correct, he can enter the UK using his expired UK passport, his passport may have expired but his citizenship hasn't, the expired travel document is proof of his citizenship and his right to enter the UK unhindered.

 

When checking in he should use his Thai passport but also show the check-in staff his UK Passport which confirms his right to enter the UK, whilst most check-in staff will be aware that's he's good to go you may need to remind them if asked, I'm assuming both passports are in the same name.

 

On passing through Thai Immigration, he should show his Thai passport, Thai Immigration have no jurisdiction over his right to enter the UK, and probably wouldn't give it a second thought.

 

On arriving at the UK Border he should present his expired UK Passport to the Border Force Officer, confirming his right to enter the UK unhindered, have the Thai passport to hand but don't present it.

 

On returning to the UK he should check-in using his Thai passport and of course clear Thai Immigration using it, there are no regular embarkation controls leaving the UK.

 

An Emergency Travel Document is absolutely not required. 

 

As has been pointed out earlier, a person with UK Citizenship doesn't need a visa and shouldn't be issued with one.

 

I trust all goes well with your visit, and I'm sorry to learn about your mothers illness. 

[FritsSikkink]

14 hours ago, Formaleins said:

OK thanks! But then by same logic, he could enter the UK on an expired UK passport? It is the bit at the airport that is confusing - his Thai passport is VALID but has no UK Visa, but if he could check in with the counter staff using the expired UK passport, then as far as Thai immigration goes they will let him leave using his valid Thai passport - After that I don't give a toss, I will fight the jobsworth <deleted>s in the UK once I get there, they are not the problem.

Like others said and which sounds very logical to me, he could enter the UK on an expired UK passport as he is a citizen. So leave Thailand on the Thai passport, enter UK on expired UK one. Leave UK on a new UK passport and enter Thailand on the Thai passport. 

Edited January 6, 2020 by FritsSikkink

[Nip]

On 1/5/2020 at 2:36 PM, FritsSikkink said:

You can't travel out on expired foreign passport. He has to leave (and enter back in Thailand) on his Thai passport.

I don't know what the UK would do if you show up with an expired UK passport.

Absolutely correct. I learnt this to my cost. My son's Thai passport had not been delivered on the day we exited Thailand but his Thai passport was in the system and immigration at Swampy would not let him exit on his up to date foreign passport.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Nip

[theoldgit]

43 minutes ago, Nip said:

Absolutely correct. I learnt this to my cost. My son's Thai passport had not been delivered on the day we exited Thailand but his Thai passport was in the system and immigration at Swampy would not let him exit on his up to date foreign passport.

Whilst in your case the Thai Immigration staff iterpreted the rules correctly, the OP's position, which this thread is about, is entirely different. The OP's grandson has a valid Thai passport, so can leave and re-enter the Kingdom without difficulty, the thread is about his entry into the UK, and that has been answered.

[AAArdvark]

On 1/5/2020 at 10:11 PM, Formaleins said:

One issue to consider is the Airline Check-In process: 

If you are presenting your sons Thai Passport at the Airline Check-In, he will need a Visa. 

If you are presenting your sons expired UK passport, this may raise issues with the Airline who may refuse your travel.

Whatever is right or wrong, the airline is ultimately held responsible and will have to pay for him to return to Thailand if he is denied entry.  99% of the time the airline will say no and refer you to your embassy.

The emergency travel document is the only safe way. 

[thonglorjimmy]

1 hour ago, AAArdvark said:

Whatever is right or wrong, the airline is ultimately held responsible and will have to pay for him to return to Thailand if he is denied entry.  99% of the time the airline will say no and refer you to your embassy.

The emergency travel document is the only safe way. 

Whilst I'll bow to your professional knowledge, the fact remains that the OP's grandson has British Citizenship and, has been pointed out by others, whilst his UK passport may have expired his inalienable right to enter the UK as a British National hasn't.

With your professional experience are you really telling the OP that Border Force Officers will refuse entry to a British Citizen and require the carrier to fly him out of the UK?
 

You say that "99% of the time the airline will say no and refer you to your embassy", could you give actual examples of where this has happened?

 

The fact remains that the OP's grandson is not subject to immigration controls and will be landed on arrival in the UK, the carrier would not be required to return him to his country of departure and neither would they be liable for penalty charges under the Immigration Carriers Liability Act or detention costs. 

 

The OP may indeed decide to waste time and money on an Emergency Travel Document, but the Consular Section will probably advise him that it's not required.   

[theoldgit]

40 minutes ago, thonglorjimmy said:

Whilst I'll bow to your professional knowledge, the fact remains that the OP's grandson has British Citizenship and, has been pointed out by others, whilst his UK passport may have expired his inalienable right to enter the UK as a British National hasn't.

Probably a tad harsh Jimmy, I don't think AAAdvark was claiming to be a professional, and whilst I doubt very much if his claim that 99% that airlines would refuse to board a British Citizen ship with proof of  citizenship in an expired passport was based on fact, he was trying to make a point.

 

You are however correct in saying that the lad is not subject to Immigration Controls and as such wouldn't encounter a problem at the UK Border and your point that Consular Staff should advise the OP that if he should apply for an ETD that isn't required is well made.

[Scouse123]

I can only speak for myself.

 

I am a British Citizen by birth and after a problem years ago, I was delayed in Thailand and my passport expired. The British Embassy in those circumstances will issue you with an ETD Emergency Travel document. I DO NOT think but will stand corrected, that you can travel on expired documents from Thailand to the UK. I don't even think they will let you check-in!

 

If it was allowed to travel on an expired passport I already had one, why did the Embassy go to the trouble of issuing me an ETD? The Embassy was directly involved in my case as well and holding my expired passport.

 

The fastest way is to contact the British Embassy and seek an ETD.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Scouse123

[Scouse123]

1 hour ago, thonglorjimmy said:

Whilst I'll bow to your professional knowledge, the fact remains that the OP's grandson has British Citizenship and, has been pointed out by others, whilst his UK passport may have expired his inalienable right to enter the UK as a British National hasn't.

With your professional experience are you really telling the OP that Border Force Officers will refuse entry to a British Citizen and require the carrier to fly him out of the UK?
 

You say that "99% of the time the airline will say no and refer you to your embassy", could you give actual examples of where this has happened?

 

The fact remains that the OP's grandson is not subject to immigration controls and will be landed on arrival in the UK, the carrier would not be required to return him to his country of departure and neither would they be liable for penalty charges under the Immigration Carriers Liability Act or detention costs. 

 

The OP may indeed decide to waste time and money on an Emergency Travel Document, but the Consular Section will probably advise him that it's not required.   

 

 

It happened to me!

 

see my other post. Sure, he has a right to enter the UK, but he has to get there and present himself first! and herein lies the problem.

[theoldgit]

39 minutes ago, Scouse123 said:

I am a British Citizen by birth and after a problem years ago, I was delayed in Thailand and my passport expired. The British Embassy in those circumstances will issue you with an ETD Emergency Travel document. I DO NOT think but will stand corrected, that you can travel on expired documents from Thailand to the UK. I don't even think they will let you check-in!

 

If it was allowed to travel on an expired passport I already had one, why did the Embassy go to the trouble of issuing me an ETD? The Embassy was directly involved in my case as well and holding my expired passport.

 

The fastest way is to contact the British Embassy and seek an ETD.

But your case was entirely different from the OP, you couldn't leave Thailand on an expired British passport, that's why you needed an ETD.

 

The OP's grandson has dual nationality and holds a Thai passport allowing him to leave the Kingdom as well as a UK passport, confirming his British Citizenship, allowing him to pass through the UK Border.  

[donnacha]

@Formaleins, sorry to hear about your mother.

About four months ago, my mother was diagnosed with endometrial cancer at an advanced stage. In the initial shock, it was difficult for us, based on the vague information being provided to us by her doctors, to understand what her outlook might be. In those first few weeks, we panicked and, presuming she might only have a month or two left, her kids rushed back from all over the world.

As it happens, while her situation is dire, and current treatments will be unable to stop her dying from this cancer, they can prolong her life quite a bit. It would have been useful if that had been explained to her family, allowing her kids to make better travel and work arrangements.

Be aware that this situation is going to drain you. Well-meaning members here telling you that the £100 for the Emergency Travel Document is a waste of money are missing the point: right now, you do not want to risk even a 10% chance of some idiot from a Thai airline not understanding your legal rights and erring on the side of not getting himself into trouble.

@Salerno, @richard_smith237, @AAArdvark, and @Scouse123 are 100% correct, the airline check-in is the barrier you need to be thinking about, your son's actual right to leave and enter countries is irrelevant.

Standing in an airport with your family and watching all your expensive, last-minute tickets go down the drain is a psychological strain you should avoid at all costs right now, you are going to be on the edge anyway.

Either get the ETD or somehow get iron-cast confirmation in advance from the airline that they will accept the expired UK passport. The ETD is likely to be a lot easier and faster, 2 working days (As you have not mentioned your son's age, and as he already had a passport, I presume he is over 16, meaning that he would not have to attend an embassy appointment accompanied by both parents).

Again, within reason, optimize to lessen stress rather than your expenses. This whole thing is going to cost you a lot of money anyway. Be prepared for other members of your family to react in unexpected and, sometimes, disappointing ways.

Be ready for a lot of driving around and expensive hospital parking. Prepare for friends offering well-meant bad advice, excited suggestions of miracle cures, and dire warnings about conventional medicine.

Understand that no treatment is ideal. Do not allow anti-chemo hysteria to worry you. The NHS is a mess but, once someone is actually diagnosed with cancer, their processes are pretty good. Experienced doctors do their best for patients in dire situations but are not always skilled at explaining that to their families.

On a practical level, my mum has found her kindle ebook reader to be invaluable. Despite being tired much of the time, she has been flying through books, it makes the waiting around for scans and appointments far easier. If your mother is more into movies and TV, an iPad with Netflix installed and a comfortable pair of Bluetooth headphones could be useful in the same way.

 

Good luck to you and family.

 

 

Edited January 7, 2020 by donnacha

[Scouse123]

16 minutes ago, theoldgit said:

But your case was entirely different from the OP, you couldn't leave Thailand on an expired British passport, that's why you needed an ETD.

 

The OP's grandson has dual nationality and holds a Thai passport allowing him to leave the Kingdom as well as a UK passport, confirming his British Citizenship, allowing him to pass through the UK Border.  

 

I disagree with that,

 

His Thai passport has no visa so he cannot enter the UK or travel on it to the UK. If he wishes to leave on his Thai passport a valid visa is required.

 

His UK passport has expired and therefore requires an ETD.

 

This is not a game of mix and match and I believe that is how it will be viewed.

 

He has options. Get a valid Thai visa for his Thai passport or get an ETD for his expired passport otherwise, they won't let him check-in.

 

I recall the OP was asking for the fastest possible way to travel and rather than go through the procedure of applying for a visa, an ETD is the obvious choice. It's all well and good having dual nationality but it also subjects you to the laws, rules and regulations of two countries.

 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2020 by Scouse123

[theoldgit]

51 minutes ago, Scouse123 said:

 

I disagree with that,

 

His Thai passport has no visa so he cannot enter the UK or travel on it to the UK. If he wishes to leave on his Thai passport a valid visa is required.

 

His UK passport has expired and therefore requires an ETD.

 

This is not a game of mix and match and I believe that is how it will be viewed.

 

He has options. Get a valid Thai visa for his Thai passport or get an ETD for his expired passport otherwise, they won't let him check-in.

 

I recall the OP was asking for the fastest possible way to travel and rather than go through the procedure of applying for a visa, an ETD is the obvious choice. It's all well and good having dual nationality but it also subjects you to the laws, rules and regulations of two countries.

You can of course disagree with me, that's your perogative.

 

You needed an ETD because your passport had expired and was no longer a valid for travel, though it would have got you into the UK had you been able to present yourself at the UK Border.

 

The OP's grandson still has a valid travel document so is able to leave Thailand in accordance with Thai Law and present himself at the UK Border, where he would show his proof of Citizenship and would be landed, in accordance with UK Nationality Law

 

As I, and others, explained earlier, when checking in he would use his Thai passport as it's a valid travel document, which yours wasn't, he would also show his expired British passport as proof of his right to enter the UK, rather like my wife shows her long term UK visa in her expired Thai passport when she travels to the UK, and indeed the EU with her valid Schengen Visa.

 

You say he has the option of applying for a UK Visa, that is completely wrong, he is a UK Citizen and as such cannot be issued with a visa.

 

You believe that its a "game of mix and match" would be and would be viewed as such, you believe wrongly, duel nationals switch passports every day of the week, probably hunderds of times a day.

 

At the end of the day the OP is concerned about getting home to see his mum, some of the "well meaning" posters are trying to offer advice on the quickest was to get him and his grandson to the UK without the time and expense of an unnecessary ETD, some of the "well meaning" people who have offerred advice, actually know what they're talking about, the lad could have boarded an aircraft as soon as a ticket had been purchased. 

 

 

[Max69xl]

On 1/5/2020 at 9:41 PM, Formaleins said:

See this is not what I am being told, many people are saying he can EXIT Thailand on an EXPIRED UK Passport - which kind of makes sense in a way as it is still proof of ID. Br interested to hear a few more comments on this as it seems like our easiest option, but probably the most awkward.

 

Why don't you ask the UK embassy/consulate instead of TV?? 

They will give you the correct answer. The alternative is a Schengen Visa for your kid.

[theoldgit]

5 minutes ago, Max69xl said:

Why don't you ask the UK embassy/consulate instead of TV?? 

They will give you the correct answer. The alternative is a Schengen Visa for your kid.

A Schengen Visa will not get the OP's grandson into the UK.

The OP has already confirmed that he intends to seek an ETD, hopefully they will confirm that one isn't required.

[Scouse123]

2 hours ago, theoldgit said:

You can of course disagree with me, that's your perogative.

 

You needed an ETD because your passport had expired and was no longer a valid for travel, though it would have got you into the UK had you been able to present yourself at the UK Border.

 

The OP's grandson still has a valid travel document so is able to leave Thailand in accordance with Thai Law and present himself at the UK Border, where he would show his proof of Citizenship and would be landed, in accordance with UK Nationality Law

 

As I, and others, explained earlier, when checking in he would use his Thai passport as it's a valid travel document, which yours wasn't, he would also show his expired British passport as proof of his right to enter the UK, rather like my wife shows her long term UK visa in her expired Thai passport when she travels to the UK, and indeed the EU with her valid Schengen Visa.

 

You say he has the option of applying for a UK Visa, that is completely wrong, he is a UK Citizen and as such cannot be issued with a visa.

 

You believe that its a "game of mix and match" would be and would be viewed as such, you believe wrongly, duel nationals switch passports every day of the week, probably hunderds of times a day.

 

At the end of the day the OP is concerned about getting home to see his mum, some of the "well meaning" posters are trying to offer advice on the quickest was to get him and his grandson to the UK without the time and expense of an unnecessary ETD, some of the "well meaning" people who have offerred advice, actually know what they're talking about, the lad could have boarded an aircraft as soon as a ticket had been purchased. 

 

 

 

Well, we will agree to disagree,

 

I see him as traveling on a Thai passport and as such requires a visa, regardless of his dual nationality. I believe travelers on Thai passports require a valid visa regardless.

 

One way for sure is for the OP to contact the consular section of the British Embassy and get the lowdown from them instead of here on TV.

 

Sure, people of dual nationality switch the passports when they are travelling to enter different countries. However, these people will be carrying two passports both of which are valid documents for travel, have any relevant visas and have not expired.

 

 

Edited January 7, 2020 by Scouse123

[theoldgit]

11 minutes ago, Scouse123 said:

 

Well, we will agree to disagree,

 

I see him as traveling on a Thai passport and as such requires a visa, regardless of his dual nationality. I believe travelers on Thai passports require a valid visa regardless.

 

One way for sure is for the OP to contact the consular section of the British Embassy and get the lowdown from them instead of here on TV.

 

Sure, people of dual nationality switch the passports when they are travelling to enter different countries. However, these people will be carrying two passports both of which are valid documents for travel and not expired.

 

 

I’m not going to argue with you, you’re clearly more knowledgeable than me and it’s not going to help the op, so I’m going to leave it there.

Save to say that the fact remains a UK National cannot be issued with a UK Visa even if he’s a duel national, so you’re wrong in your belief.

The other fact is that he has a valid travel document which enables him to travel to the UK Border and evidence of his UK nationality which proves he is not subject to Immigration Controls, and will be landed.