UK election result 'blew away' argument for second Brexit vote: Labour's Starmer

[Jip99]

12 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Do people really think that in the recent GE a vote for the conservative meant they were voting for brexit. Obviously no one could have been be voting AGAINST something else, such as JC.

 

 

Both is the obviously answer.

 

Anyone voting Conservative knew exactly what they were getting. The election WAS fundamentally about Brexit and Johnson taking the chance to be returned with a working majority. Corbyn simply made his task easier.

 

Anybody dead against Brexit could have not voted for the Tories - clearly, not enough who previously voted to remain preferred Brexit to not having a Tory government.

[sandyf]

17 hours ago, TheDark said:

Scots fear at the time was that after exit from UK, rejoining to EU could take a long time. 

 

I don't think that's the case anymore. Scotland has proven that it's more European than England is. Furthermore exiting UK is currently the only way for Scotland to get back to EU. 

Quite. Scotland had little chance of leaving the UK without Westminster approval while the UK was a member of the EU considering the EU's obligations to the UK government.

Brexit will remove those obligations giving Scotland other options.

Will be interesting to hear what the EU have to say once they are free to talk.

[vogie]

1 minute ago, sandyf said:

Brexit has broken Britain and the brexiteers are looking for every excuse under the sun to deny responsibility.

It is a documented fact that the majority of Scotland voted to remain in the EU, to some an irrelevant fact, but one that will dictate the way forward.

The remainers have broken Britain, had they gone along with the democratic decision that the electorate had voted for in the first place we would be well on our way to prosperity and unity by now.

 

It was not a Scottish vote, we voted as a UK union, it was never expected for all the electorate to vote the same way, but it is expected for the losers to respect the democratic decision of the majority.

 

 

[sandyf]

3 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

Both is the obviously answer.

 

Anyone voting Conservative knew exactly what they were getting. The election WAS fundamentally about Brexit and Johnson taking the chance to be returned with a working majority. Corbyn simply made his task easier.

 

Anybody dead against Brexit could have not voted for the Tories - clearly, not enough who previously voted to remain preferred Brexit to not having a Tory government.

So you agree that people having to choose between the lesser of 2 evils is not a good indication of what they really want.

[sandyf]

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

The remainers have broken Britain, had they gone along with the democratic decision that the electorate had voted for in the first place we would be well on our way to prosperity and unity by now.

 

It was not a Scottish vote, we voted as a UK union, it was never expected for all the electorate to vote the same way, but it is expected for the losers to respect the democratic decision of the majority.

 

 

You refuse to accept the Institute for Government assessment and you refuse to accept that the majority of Scotland voted to remain in the EU.

 

Nowhere to go from there.

[vogie]

1 minute ago, sandyf said:

You refuse to accept the Institute for Government assessment and you refuse to accept that the majority of Scotland voted to remain in the EU.

 

Nowhere to go from there.

I like to go with the facts, Scotland voted to remain in the UK and that is not an assessment.

And I will keep repeating this untill I'm blue in the face, 'we voted as the UK whether to remain or leave the EU, not as seperate regions, countrys or even streets.'

[TheDark]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

I like to go with the facts, Scotland voted to remain in the UK and that is not an assessment.

And I will keep repeating this untill I'm blue in the face, 'we voted as the UK whether to remain or leave the EU, not as seperate regions, countrys or even streets.'

It's essential to also understand the reasons why Scotland voted to remain with England. 

 

Now those reasons behind voting behaviour has changed, which renders the initial referendum invalid and warrants a new referendum. 

 

Let the people express their independent voices. Do not try to push them down by not letting them to have a referendum.

[englishoak]

Today the UK commons rejected all amendments and delay attempts by the house of Lords.

 

We are now 99% certain of Brexit a week from tomorrow, all thats left is the EU to formally agree next week which is 99.9% certain and we are OUT. 

 

I shall be attending the Brexit party in parliament square and partying all weekend with many freinds,  It has been a long road and despite all the trails and many who would ignore and derail the will of the majority of voters, thanks to those determined English voters justice will indeed be done. NEVER bet or go against the British and most notably the English, shame the same cant be said of the Scots who never have had the will, vision or determination of the English... they had their chance and as usual threw it away. Oh well.

 

Maybe one day Scotland will get it together and give England its independence from Scotlands dependence but somehow I doubt it, mores the pity... 

[Jip99]

25 minutes ago, sandyf said:

So you agree that people having to choose between the lesser of 2 evils is not a good indication of what they really want.

 

 

What I agree with is that that is democracy.  

 

 

People vote for whatever reason they see fit - and for whom they so choose. A vote is a positive action of choosing someone.

 

 

If you don't want something, don't vote.................. I imagine millions of Americans will still vote for Trump. 

[sandyf]

6 hours ago, vogie said:

I like to go with the facts, Scotland voted to remain in the UK and that is not an assessment.

 

You obviously do not like facts as Scotland voted to remain in the EU,

Feel free to go blue in the face it is certainly not going to influence the people of Scotland.

 

[sandyf]

5 hours ago, englishoak said:

Today the UK commons rejected all amendments and delay attempts by the house of Lords.

 

Only self centred would consider the points raised by the Lords as invalid.

Something to reflect on.

 

"Number 10 has decided not to listen, whether it is to the devolved authorities, to experienced judges and senior official post-holders or to experienced members of your lordships' house," she said. "If this is to be the pattern of this administration... then I fear we are in for an unfortunate time."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-brexit-bill-pass-parliament-eu-latest-today-a9297601.html

[vogie]

Just now, sandyf said:

You obviously do not like facts as Scotland voted to remain in the EU,

Feel free to go blue in the face it is certainly not going to influence the people of Scotland.

 

No they did not, the United Kingdom voted to leave the EU to which Scotland is a very much a big part of.

But I fear that once the UK has left the EU on the 31st of January indy2 will take a lot more selling to the Scots by the SNP.

 

 

[sandyf]

6 hours ago, Jip99 said:

A vote is a positive action of choosing someone.

 

Exactly why an election cannot be treated as a referendum.

[sandyf]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

No they did not, the United Kingdom voted to leave the EU to which Scotland is a very much a big part of.

Treating Scotland like another English shire doesn't make it fact, as time will tell.

[vogie]

15 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Treating Scotland like another English shire doesn't make it fact, as time will tell.

Scotland are being treated like a member of our union, which they are. As for predicting what "time will tell", neither you nor myself can do that.

[TheDark]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

Scotland are being treated like a member of our union, which they are. As for predicting what "time will tell", neither you nor myself can do that.

If Scotland is a member of the union as you said, then naturally Scotland can cancel it's membership, as it has noticed that it no longer have power to decide the laws it makes. 

 

"Get Brexit done", "Take back control" works well for Scottish independence movement. 

[vogie]

1 minute ago, TheDark said:

If Scotland is a member of the union as you said, then naturally Scotland can cancel it's membership, as it has noticed that it no longer have power to decide the laws it makes. 

 

"Get Brexit done", "Take back control" works well for Scottish independence movement. 

What you fail to understand in a democracy it takes a majority to reach that decision, there is no evidence that the majority of Scots wish to leave the United Kingdom, infact they voted againgst leaving the UK and on top of all that all the polls suggest that there is still not a majority in Scotland to break away from our union. When we leave the EU in 8 days time the SNP will have a greater challange to convince the Unionist Scots to board their Nationalist skateboard.

Wilco over and out.

[TheDark]

7 minutes ago, vogie said:

What you fail to understand in a democracy it takes a majority to reach that decision, there is no evidence that the majority of Scots wish to leave the United Kingdom, infact they voted againgst leaving the UK and on top of all that all the polls suggest that there is still not a majority in Scotland to break away from our union. When we leave the EU in 8 days time the SNP will have a greater challange to convince the Unionist Scots to board their Nationalist skateboard.

Wilco over and out.

In democracy to understand the wish of the majority is constantly polling what the people want. 

 

What people wanted some years ago, when the situation was totally different, changes. 

 

This time, it's quite clear that Scottish people want to be independent and Take Back Control from oppressive England with it's unelected bureaucrats in Whitehall, who dictate the laws of the Scottish people and how people can live.

 

 

[vogie]

1 minute ago, TheDark said:

In democracy to understand the wish of the majority is constantly polling what the people want. 

 

What people wanted some years ago, when the situation was totally different, changes. 

 

This time, it's quite clear that Scottish people want to be independent and Take Back Control from oppressive England with it's unelected bureaucrats in Whitehall, who dictate the laws of the Scottish people and how people can live.

 

 

Do you suggest weekly referendums?

 

By you saying what the Scottish people want does not make it so, can you start providing some meat to the bone instead of coming out with this nonsense. Making up posts and passing them off as facts does not help anyone........Links please. 

 

 

[TheDark]

I kind of like if the Scottish would re-use all the Brexit slogans, which were so effective. 

 

Also for the reason, that the Scottish movement could get already printed slogans from warehouses with significant discounts! ????

 

 

[TheDark]

Just now, vogie said:

Do you suggest weekly referendums?

 

By you saying what the Scottish people want does not make it so, can you start providing some meat to the bone instead of coming out with this nonsense. Making up posts and passing them off as facts does not help anyone........Links please. 

I think it's fine if the important referendums of important issues are held only when the situation in the country has changed significantly. 

 

Brexit changed everything, so it's really time to hear from the people, how they feel about being dictated by unelected Whitehall faceless power.

[vogie]

15 minutes ago, TheDark said:

I think it's fine if the important referendums of important issues are held only when the situation in the country has changed significantly. 

 

Brexit changed everything, so it's really time to hear from the people, how they feel about being dictated by unelected Whitehall faceless power.

Brexit didn't change anything, the SNP wanted independence before the EU referendum and if remain had have won that EU referendum the SNP would have still wanted independence. The SNP have only 3 priorities 1. Independence 2. Independence 3. Independence. A party of neverendums.

Whichever way you chose to look at it, we are leaving on the 31st of Jan and by jumping on the SNP bandwagon it will not change a thing.

So you see all that Brexit did was to give Mrs Sturgeon a stick to beat the rest of the UK with, it made no difference to her blinkered vision.

 

 

[TheDark]

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

Brexit didn't change anything, the SNP wanted independence before the EU referendum and if remain had have won that EU referendum the SNP would have still wanted independence. The SNP have only 3 priorities 1. Independence 2. Independence 3. Independence. A party of neverendums.

Whichever way you chose to look at it, we are leaving on the 31st of Jan and by jumping on the SNP bandwagon it will not change a thing.

So you see all that Brexit did was to give Mrs Sturgeon a stick to beat the rest of the UK with, it made no difference to her blinkered vision.

 

 

SNP wanted independency before. That has been the purpose of SNP. 

 

Previously Scottish people didn't want to go with SNP's plan as it included fear of Scotland being outside of EU, in case Scotland once again gains independence from England. 

 

Now that England is out of EU in one weeks time, it will drag along Scotland as well. 

 

Therefore one of the biggest selling point for Scottish people to stay with England which was 'to stay within EU', has expired. 

 

For a small European country there is much more freedom to be part of great union of EU, instead of being always the little brother of England - the way England is treating Scotland. 

 

It's good for Scotland to Take Back Control and be part of something much larger. Get Brexit done.

 

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

What you fail to understand in a democracy it takes a majority to reach that decision, there is no evidence that the majority of Scots wish to leave the United Kingdom, infact they voted againgst leaving the UK and on top of all that all the polls suggest that there is still not a majority in Scotland to break away from our union. When we leave the EU in 8 days time the SNP will have a greater challange to convince the Unionist Scots to board their Nationalist skateboard.

Wilco over and out.

 

right

but is it the task of the Westminster pubs patrons to police public opinion in Scotland

and in between pints and nips decide among them selves when the jocks agree to leave UK?

 

what is the point of this Holyrood establishment if they cannot act on behalf of the populace in Scotland

when and how they feel fit?

 

(drunkards in Westminster pubs required in order to maintain democracy and human rights in Scotland)

 

 

[vogie]

42 minutes ago, TheDark said:

SNP wanted independency before. That has been the purpose of SNP. 

 

Previously Scottish people didn't want to go with SNP's plan as it included fear of Scotland being outside of EU, in case Scotland once again gains independence from England. 

 

Now that England is out of EU in one weeks time, it will drag along Scotland as well. 

 

Therefore one of the biggest selling point for Scottish people to stay with England which was 'to stay within EU', has expired. 

 

For a small European country there is much more freedom to be part of great union of EU, instead of being always the little brother of England - the way England is treating Scotland. 

 

It's good for Scotland to Take Back Control and be part of something much larger. Get Brexit done.

 

"Now that England is out of the EU in a weeks time"????????????

 

Enough of this nonsense.

 

 

[nauseus]

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

"Now that England is out of the EU in a weeks time"????????????

 

Enough of this nonsense.

 

 

Blackford caught foot in mouth.....and not for the first time.

[melvinmelvin]

 

as I said above

Westminster unruly mob policing public opinion up north

and single handedly stagger out of the pubs to decide if and when it can be allowed for the jocks to have a ref

 

(dunno, but my gut feeling is that if you look deep into this matter you may get some surprises as far as

 respect of human rights and democracy is concerned)

[Jip99]

Just now, melvinmelvin said:

 

as I said above

Westminster unruly mob policing public opinion up north

and single handedly stagger out of the pubs to decide if and when it can be allowed for the jocks to have a ref

 

(dunno, but my gut feeling is that if you look deep into this matter you may get some surprises as far as

 respect of human rights and democracy is concerned)

 

 

They have already had a once in a generation referendum - enough already, that was democracy in action. In case you missed it, in the recent GE, more Scots voted for parties not in favour of independence.

[TheDark]

4 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

They have already had a once in a generation referendum - enough already, that was democracy in action. In case you missed it, in the recent GE, more Scots voted for parties not in favour of independence.

I don't get it. What is the reasoning for Englishmen not to allow Scotts to decide what they want for their future?

 

Why Englishmen would even want to keep on going with dysfunctional union, when it's clear that now when UK is leaving EU, Scots want to exit the union with England? 

 

EU was naturally sad that important part of it wanted to leave, when UK first independently decided to to have a referendum and then decided to Brexit. However EU was ok with the situation.

 

Why Englishmen wish to force Scotland to stay as part of the union by not letting Scotland to decide her own fate by a referendum. A referendum is valid now when the environment has radically changed for Scotland. 

 

If she loves you, let her free. If she comes back, she is yours. If not, she never was.

[TheDark]

30 minutes ago, vogie said:

"Now that England is out of the EU in a weeks time"????????????

 

Enough of this nonsense.

When the Big Ben Bongs, UK is out. 

 

Big Ben represents quite well the whole Brexit process. To get changes done in England, takes years and a lot of money. Meanwhile, during the suspension of Big Ben's ability to inform people, the crows have nested and multiplied on top of the parliamentary structures. 

 

May the Big Ben Bong again.