UK Pensions and related info

[cleopatra2]

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

COPE = Contracted Out Period of Employment.

 

From 2016 and the New State Pension.

You must have 35 years of NI contributions to receive the full state pension, which it a appears you have, however for years your were contracted out, the COPE figure is actually an estimate of how much your state pension will be reduced by.

35 qualifying years on todays state pension will pay £175.20 less your COPE of £41, so you'd actually receive £134.20 per week. The deduction is made because you only paid the basic NI for 17 years, the difference being paid into your Private/Company Pension pot.

Your private pension should more than make up for the deduction of your state pension, i.e. more than £41 a week.

This is not accurate.

The person who asked the question will receive the pension transition value ( he is unable to contribute 35 years post commencement NIs)

This is calculated in 3 steps

A comparison of the old stage pension against the new State pension as of 2016 and taking the higher amount as Foundation level.

Re evaluating the amounts to 2016 levels

And then adding any post 2016 contributions pro rato to this amount up to the maximum allowed.

 

 

[pineapple01]

I cant get over the sad Brit Pensions,  I listen to Brits here and even a Man from Space would ask if they won WW2. Your Dads Fought in It, today's Pensioner re built it. The 2.O lot who started it do better. Truely Remarkable as we you saved. would say.

[Tanoshi]

2 hours ago, cleopatra2 said:

You cannot choose to stop paying NI 

You do when you retire and stop working.

There are other instances where you may not make NI contributions.

Edited May 28, 2020 by Tanoshi

[cleopatra2]

19 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

You do when you retire and stop working.

There are other instances where you may not make NI contributions.

Apologies .

I meant to remove my comment as it was not really informative.

Did not realise it was still present

 

[Tanoshi]

2 hours ago, cleopatra2 said:

This is not accurate.

The person who asked the question will receive the pension transition value ( he is unable to contribute 35 years post commencement NIs)

This is calculated in 3 steps

A comparison of the old stage pension against the new State pension as of 2016 and taking the higher amount as Foundation level.

Re evaluating the amounts to 2016 levels

And then adding any post 2016 contributions pro rato to this amount up to the maximum allowed.

 

 

I replied to @kevtheblue who stated;

 

Quote

I rang Newcastle pension centre where they comfirmed i had already got enough years.

I asked about the years i had contracted out, I was told i must have been earning good money

as my contributions to my state pension had not been afected.

I asked for a letter of comfirmation.In the letter it states i would get the full amount £164 .

Also you cannot improve your forecast anymore but still need to pay N I contributions.

On the next page it states your COPE estimate is £41 . Does anybody now what this means.

So he already has the required 35 years NI contributions to receive the full new State Pension.

The rate paid is based on the higher figure of either;

a). The lower rate pension pre 2016 + any additional SP2 contributions, OR,

b) The higher rate Pension 2016 without any SP2 contributions added.

 

The DWP make this calculation and advise which of the higher rate applies to you.

In this case they have advised the new pension rate of £164. (now increased to £175).

However his COPE of £41 will be deducted from this weekly figure.

 

The real fiddle being if you received your state pension prior to April 2016, there is no deduction for years contracted out, that only applies to the new state pension rate April 2016.

[cleopatra2]

48 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

I replied to @kevtheblue who stated;

 

So he already has the required 35 years NI contributions to receive the full new State Pension.

The rate paid is based on the higher figure of either;

a). The lower rate pension pre 2016 + any additional SP2 contributions, OR,

b) The higher rate Pension 2016 without any SP2 contributions added.

 

The DWP make this calculation and advise which of the higher rate applies to you.

In this case they have advised the new pension rate of £164. (now increased to £175).

However his COPE of £41 will be deducted from this weekly figure.

 

The real fiddle being if you received your state pension prior to April 2016, there is no deduction for years contracted out, that only applies to the new state pension rate April 2016.

If he has COPE he would need more than 35 years.

It is possible that his State pension prior to 2016 included additional State pension .

 

The calculation of higher rate from old scheme to new is only to determine the foundation amount and would include the COPE in that assessment.

Once that assessment determines which scheme is the more beneficial ( the foundation amount ) then any qualifying subsequent years NI from 2016 would improve the pension up to the full amount.

 

This is why some people require more than 35 years qualifying contributions to get the new pension full amount.

 

Given what he has stated he will get the full amount.

The COPE will not be deducted, it is only used to determine the foundation amount .

 

See schedule 1 of the pensions act.

Edited May 28, 2020 by cleopatra2

[Tanoshi]

38 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

If he has COPE he would need more than 35 years.

It is possible that his State pension prior to 2016 included additional State pension .

It makes no difference.

Any contracted out period are deducted from the first 35 qualifying years.

I had 43 qualifying years and 7 years contracted out. The COPE is still deducted from the first 35 qualifying years. I had SP2 under the old scheme, but the new rate was still higher than the old rate + SP2, but I may add by pence.

 

54 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

The calculation of higher rate from old scheme to new is only to determine the foundation amount and would include the COPE in that assessment.

Once that assessment determines which scheme is the more beneficial ( the foundation amount ) then any qualifying subsequent years NI from 2016 would improve the pension up to the full amount.

 

This is why some people require more than 35 years qualifying contributions to get the new pension full amount.

I understand what your saying, but in this case 'kevtheblue' stated he is 55 and moving to Thailand, so he wouldn't be making any further NI contribution to his state pension.

With 35 qualifying years he will still qualify for the full state pension in 11/12 years time, less a deduction for his contracted out period.

 

[treetops]

COPE is Contracted Out Pension Equivalent.

 

When you look at the government site to find out what your pension will be, it states if you have been contracted out of SERPS/S2P at any time.  If so, it displays a figure which you hypothetically should get from your private pension, but the figure is generally far from accurate.  It will not be deducted from the headline figure showing what the government will give you, it's only there for (mis) information.

 

It is possible to have had high enough earnings to have been contracted out and still have made enough contributions to meet the requirements for each year.

[cleopatra2]

55 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

It makes no difference.

Any contracted out period are deducted from the first 35 qualifying years.

I had 43 qualifying years and 7 years contracted out. The COPE is still deducted from the first 35 qualifying years. I had SP2 under the old scheme, but the new rate was still higher than the old rate + SP2, but I may add by pence.

 

I understand what your saying, but in this case 'kevtheblue' stated he is 55 and moving to Thailand, so he wouldn't be making any further NI contribution to his state pension.

With 35 qualifying years he will still qualify for the full state pension in 11/12 years time, less a deduction for his contracted out period.

 

The 35 years is only a minimum number of contributions to reach the maximum pension.

If due to contracting out it takes longer these are included.

The COPE is only used to find the pension value at date April 2016.

Any contributions after this date are used to improve the pension value.

[topt]

28 minutes ago, treetops said:

it's only there for (mis) information.

Yes I agree it is a little confusing.

The actual wording is -

Quote

Your COPE estimate is xxxx a week.

This will not affect your State Pension forecast. The COPE amount is paid as part of your other pension schemes, not by the government.

In most cases the private pension scheme you were contracted out to:

• will include an amount equal to the COPE amount
• may not individually identify the COPE amount

The total amount of pension paid by your workplace or personal pension schemes will depend on the scheme and on any investment choices.

The last 2 lines are the key.

[Tanoshi]

COPE

The pension you get from your workplace or personal pension scheme for the periods you were contracted out, should include an amount that, in most cases, will be the equivalent of the additional State Pension you would have got if you had not been contracted out. This is your Contracted Out Pension Equivalent (COPE) amount.

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/understanding-and-qualifying-new-state-pension

 

If you start with more than the full new State Pension, the difference between your starting amount and the full new State Pension is called your ‘protected payment’.

Your protected payment is paid on top of your new State Pension.

Any qualifying years you have from 5 April 2016 won’t add more to your State Pension.

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/understanding-and-qualifying-new-state-pension

 

Your National Insurance record before 6 April 2016 is used to calculate your ‘starting amount’. This is part of your new State Pension.

Your starting amount will be the higher of either:

the amount you would get under the old State Pension rules (which includes basic State Pension and Additional State Pension)

the amount you would get if the new State Pension had been in place at the start of your working life

Your starting amount will include a deduction if you were contracted out of the Additional State Pension. You may have been contracted out because you were in a certain type of workplace, personal or stakeholder pension.

https://www.gov.uk/new-state-pension/how-its-calculated

 

I qualified for my State Pension April 2018.

My pension was made up of the basic pension + protected payment (43 qualifying years) bringing the total to just under £200. Then for each contracted out year (7) a deduction equivalent to £4.80 for each year contracted out. These figures were clearly itemised in my Award Notice and Statement of Details in the calculation of my Pension.

 

Of course the £33.60 weekly deducted for the contracted out periods, is less than the private pension payments received for the same period (£85).

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by Tanoshi

[cleopatra2]

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

COPE

The pension you get from your workplace or personal pension scheme for the periods you were contracted out, should include an amount that, in most cases, will be the equivalent of the additional State Pension you would have got if you had not been contracted out. This is your Contracted Out Pension Equivalent (COPE) amount.

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/understanding-and-qualifying-new-state-pension

 

If you start with more than the full new State Pension, the difference between your starting amount and the full new State Pension is called your ‘protected payment’.

Your protected payment is paid on top of your new State Pension.

Any qualifying years you have from 5 April 2016 won’t add more to your State Pension.

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/understanding-and-qualifying-new-state-pension

 

Your National Insurance record before 6 April 2016 is used to calculate your ‘starting amount’. This is part of your new State Pension.

Your starting amount will be the higher of either:

the amount you would get under the old State Pension rules (which includes basic State Pension and Additional State Pension)

the amount you would get if the new State Pension had been in place at the start of your working life

Your starting amount will include a deduction if you were contracted out of the Additional State Pension. You may have been contracted out because you were in a certain type of workplace, personal or stakeholder pension.

https://www.gov.uk/new-state-pension/how-its-calculated

 

I qualified for my State Pension April 2018.

My pension was made up of the basic pension + protected payment (43 qualifying years) bringing the total to just under £200. Then for each contracted out year (7) a deduction equivalent to £4.80 for each year contracted out. These figures were clearly itemised in my Award Notice and Statement of Details in the calculation of my Pension.

 

Of course the £33.60 weekly deducted for the contracted out periods, is less than the private pension payments received for the same period (£85).

 

Apologies

But if I understand correctly as of Apr 2016 your pension starting point would have been greater using the old scheme as opposed to the New Single Tier. I take this from the protected pension.

If under the old scheme your starting pension greater than the new full flat rate any subsequent years from 2016 would not have improved the pension payment.

Your pension appears to have been calculated using the old scheme , and with regards the contracting out part it was not unusual to calculate the pension as though Serps still being paid  and then deduct the amount promised to be paid by private provider for the years contracted out.

If you look at the figures provided that was around £4

 

[kevtheblue]

Thank you Cleopatra 2 Tanoshi Treetops Topt for your help.

As i see it then the more years i work now the COPE estimate £41 will stay the same.

 

                   thanks kev

[UKresonant]

Have you already downloaded your pension forecast and full NI history.

The pension forecast will show the full new state pension, whilst you have enough potential years left to pay post April 2016 NI full years.

e.g. when I left my last employment 2018, I had something like 37 years contract out, 1 year with a few weeks contracted out and 2016-2018 not contracted out, so 40 years NI and they said I needed another 6 years NI to reach the full forecast figure. (approx £750 per year class 3 or a new job). 46 years of NI.

 

It shows what you would get so far, and the forecast, on the download ( I did download the latest one, but have not studied it yet)

 

I knew someone who stayed in Thailand for 10 years, payed voluntary NI, to get closer to then 44 year target, then they changed it to 30 years in 2010, then back up to 35 years in 2015. I don't know if the extra payments helped or not if he drew the pension 2010-2015 ????

[steve187]

I just did a pension forecast, it is showing 36 full years, also showing

'Estimate based on your National Insurance record up to 5 April 2019 £164.33 a week' and

'Forecast if you contribute until 5 April 2021 £174.34 a week'

I have a cope amount of £35.23 i think from 9 years of being contracted out.

i now pay class 2 as i am self employed in the UK, so its worth paying the £156 a year for 2 years to get the extra £10.01 weekly giving m in fact 38 years of full payments

 

 

my Q's for the experts are, by paying the extra 2 years will my cope amount reduce

and is the cope figure then taken off the actual amount i get on retirement day 1e £174.34 - £35.23 = £139.11 ( i think i know the answer to this one)

Edited May 29, 2020 by steve187

[treetops]

4 hours ago, steve187 said:

my Q's for the experts are, by paying the extra 2 years will my cope amount reduce

and is the cope figure then taken off the actual amount i get on retirement day 1e £174.34 - £35.23 = £139.11 ( i think i know the answer to this one)

The COPE amount will remain the same (maybe adjusted by inflation or RPI or something).  It will not be taken off the headline amount.

[cleopatra2]

The following article gives a good explanation 

Note in Q & A  The COPE figure in pension estimates are for information purposes only and have already been included in the calculations.

 

https://www.royallondon.com/media/good-with-your-money-guides/the-new-state-pension-your-questions-answered/

 

[Pumpuynarak]

On 5/28/2020 at 7:33 AM, izod10 said:

I do not believe any of this,there are rules/regulations drawn up by the DWP,there is nothing,nothing at all that in any way states the procedure followed (letter) is lawful,seems a Pension Credit statement re-jigged.

   In 20 years I have never heard of this situation and there are others who must have been through it.  Think the Decision Makers  decision was flawed. Need to read the DWP guidelines as to what is appropriate,and this supposedly letter if I received it would be challenged

  Up to the individual,stated other thread smallest pension in the west,made smaller by own admission,tell them they act,don't tell...up to you

 

 edit..if read DWP guidelines ,they can take up to 3 years of any payments they want adjusted, (not State Pension)   This letter is a hoax,or a botch up by DWP

 

On 5/28/2020 at 9:32 AM, izod10 said:

I have read,and re-read,the letter is a hoax. The wording for one is highly suspicious, "Dosh" used by the poster,and other wording, there is only one other poster who uses that expression,he has been on more than a few ignore lists too.   Firstly he knew two who had been "done"  then it was up to three, latterly down to one,not appeared since the "letter"

  Thread old and new been in existence for eight years or so and hey ho! an "official letter appears   yeah right  Nothing but nothing in DWP guidelines even remotely come close to this result.  I could put this letter in editor and re-jig it too,look up rules/regulations/penalties Jealousy....My other pension leaves the OAP trailing,but better for me

You can believe whatever you like, the facts as i present them are the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me god lol The fact that you might post lies and <deleted> does'nt give you the right to accuse me of the same, now run along now.....

 

Goodbye

Edited May 30, 2020 by Pumpuynarak

[izod10]

7 hours ago, Pumpuynarak said:

 

You can believe whatever you like, the facts as i present them are the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me god lol The fact that you might post lies and <deleted> does'nt give you the right to accuse me of the same, now run along now.....

 

Goodbye

You have had PM (conversation) with another TV member I believe,not that I am going to reveal what was actually quoted word for word between him and yourself,but it followed a path that  you did not know the process involving the contents that ,the letter involved

  Cannot deny the letter,or its contents, just the fact how it evolved to that wording

[izod10]

On 5/12/2020 at 5:43 AM, transam said:

Yep, and to prove us all wrong, and BritManToo being so right, I suggest he inform pensions where he lives and his pension status. He can then tell them to stick it up their as_ and see what happens .

Then get back to us with the resulting correspondence...

 

Bet he won't do that though, eh......????

Why should he? only individuals being robbed here are the frozen ones    Id say good luck to him and the others who have stood against  this ridiculous ruling and not abided by it.

  Stated again,the only penalty DWP can inflict is a frozen pension,nothing more,nothing less,hardly worth a postage stamp What you say?  LOL

  Is emotive issue,those that have it/those that don't,   will rumble on for time immemorial,least the unfrozen get the rises  lol

[transam]

13 hours ago, izod10 said:

Why should he? only individuals being robbed here are the frozen ones    Id say good luck to him and the others who have stood against  this ridiculous ruling and not abided by it.

  Stated again,the only penalty DWP can inflict is a frozen pension,nothing more,nothing less,hardly worth a postage stamp What you say?  LOL

  Is emotive issue,those that have it/those that don't,   will rumble on for time immemorial,least the unfrozen get the rises  lol

How can you say folk are being robbed when the law is clear about pension claims. The fact is that if you live most of your life in Thailand you cannot get your pension upgraded, even the EU court couldn't get us out of our predicament, so those who tell porkies to get more cash are themselves doing the robbing.

 

I don't like having my pension locked, for me it is an outrage, but if folk want to fiddle stuff then it is them that are in the wrong, bit like looting eh.

 

You and another come on here telling folk to stiff the UK system, well to me you are encouraging folk to falsify UK pension service, I thought that stuff was a no-no on this forum. ????

 

 

[ubonjoe]

A off topic post has been removed.

[pineapple01]

Did it say clearly that there are areas where Yearly Increases will not be honoured when printed terms were first stated. I find this interesting, and hard to believe seeing that British Law is a benchmark the World tends to follow. If Countries were not stated, you are being defrauded. So answer the Question, YES or NO.

[transam]

20 hours ago, pineapple01 said:

Did it say clearly that there are areas where Yearly Increases will not be honoured when printed terms were first stated. I find this interesting, and hard to believe seeing that British Law is a benchmark the World tends to follow. If Countries were not stated, you are being defrauded. So answer the Question, YES or NO.

The countries a UK bloke can retire too and get yearly increases has to have a reciprocal agreement with the UK. Thailand does not have one, the USA does, there is a list.

 

Our plight was taken to the European Court where 13 judges sat and listened to our case, we lost 8-5.

The UK refers to our pension as a benefit, so we must follow the benefit rules, sadly.

 

Now a couple of folk posting here are telling folk to tell lies to get a few more quid are just chancers, probably spent their whole lives doing that kinda stuff, they think they/we will all get away with falsifying information for a bit more cash.

Well I ain't a chancer when it comes to certain things, fiddling benefits is one.   

[Tanoshi]

12 minutes ago, transam said:

Thailand does not have one, the USA does, there is a list.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/state-pensions-annual-increases-if-you-live-abroad/countries-where-we-pay-an-annual-increase-in-the-state-pension

[pineapple01]

1 minute ago, Tanoshi said:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/state-pensions-annual-increases-if-you-live-abroad/countries-where-we-pay-an-annual-increase-in-the-state-pension

Nearly there, but was that info available before internet. My Brit chum 86yo doesnt remember, he was so happy to be alive after WW2. Be nice if someone had a copy from back then.

[izod10]

1 hour ago, transam said:

The countries a UK bloke can retire too and get yearly increases has to have a reciprocal agreement with the UK. Thailand does not have one, the USA does, there is a list.

 

Our plight was taken to the European Court where 13 judges sat and listened to our case, we lost 8-5.

The UK refers to our pension as a benefit, so we must follow the benefit rules, sadly.

 

Now a couple of folk posting here are telling folk to tell lies to get a few more quid are just chancers, probably spent their whole lives doing that kinda stuff, they think they/we will all get away with falsifying information for a bit more cash.

Well I ain't a chancer when it comes to certain things, fiddling benefits is one.   

LOL     Reciprocal agreement?  chancers?  try obtaining it not a hope in hell  lol

   80 year old treaty,was perhaps worth something then,not now. Nobody will take any notice,just get on with it

 

 Purely a situation here of human rights,should have been fought on those grounds,  to be treated equally as others who have paid into a system,and expected their due (pitiful ) rewards.  Just because some lazy sods 80 years ago could not be bothered to complete the task in front of them  ie set agreements up unilateral, ran out of money/time/patience

 

  Not told lies/not telling    enjoy your day  lol

 

  ..and as a high ranking ex unformed public sector employee c/w with high pension, I take offence at your suggestion.  Come across your sort day in/day out,looking  to anything and everything that does not suit your agenda, ....life's purpose to chase a  vanishing threat/dream/whatever   For you the damage is done,and it shows. I would just get over it,move on with what is left in your life.

 

Least if that is all I was left with, the miniscule state pension,and a frozen one at that, life would not be worth living   lol     Yes there are people here with the 400/800K in the bank,living on fresh air,see them virt.every day..pathetic

Edited June 1, 2020 by izod10

[steve187]

22 hours ago, pineapple01 said:

Did it say clearly that there are areas where Yearly Increases will not be honoured when printed terms were first stated. I find this interesting, and hard to believe seeing that British Law is a benchmark the World tends to follow. If Countries were not stated, you are being defrauded. So answer the Question, YES or NO.

does this help 

3. When pensions were first introduced in 1925, they were only payable in Great Britain. Northern Ireland and the Isle of Man. Subsequently, a provision was included in the Contributory Pension Act 1929 enabling pensions to be paid in His Majesty’s dominions (broadly the countries which now form the Commonwealth). When the rate of pension was increased in 1946, the increase was not paid to pensioners abroad. The reasons for this decision appear to have been related mainly to the then forthcoming new scheme of National Insurance. It was considered that the substantial increase in pension, from 10 to 26 shillings, was a first instalment of the new scheme and that pensioners abroad had made only a small contribution to their pensions and could not reasonably expect a share in the new scheme

 

taken from here a pdf, no page to view just a download - https://bit.ly/36LNI6i which is taken from here- https://www.parliament.uk/commons-library

[izod10]

2 minutes ago, steve187 said:

does this help 

3. When pensions were first introduced in 1925, they were only payable in Great Britain. Northern Ireland and the Isle of Man. Subsequently, a provision was included in the Contributory Pension Act 1929 enabling pensions to be paid in His Majesty’s dominions (broadly the countries which now form the Commonwealth). When the rate of pension was increased in 1946, the increase was not paid to pensioners abroad. The reasons for this decision appear to have been related mainly to the then forthcoming new scheme of National Insurance. It was considered that the substantial increase in pension, from 10 to 26 shillings, was a first instalment of the new scheme and that pensioners abroad had made only a small contribution to their pensions and could not reasonably expect a share in the new scheme

 

taken from here a pdf, no page to view just a download - https://bit.ly/36LNI6i which is taken from here- https://www.parliament.uk/commons-library

I do and have made no small contributions through out ,so now I want(and expect) a share in the new scheme

[transam]

1 hour ago, izod10 said:

LOL     Reciprocal agreement?  chancers?  try obtaining it not a hope in hell  lol

   80 year old treaty,was perhaps worth something then,not now. Nobody will take any notice,just get on with it

 

 Purely a situation here of human rights,should have been fought on those grounds,  to be treated equally as others who have paid into a system,and expected their due (pitiful ) rewards.  Just because some lazy sods 80 years ago could not be bothered to complete the task in front of them  ie set agreements up unilateral, ran out of money/time/patience

 

  Not told lies/not telling    enjoy your day  lol

 

  ..and as a high ranking ex unformed public sector employee c/w with high pension, I take offence at your suggestion.  Come across your sort day in/day out,looking  to anything and everything that does not suit your agenda, ....life's purpose to chase a  vanishing threat/dream/whatever   For you the damage is done,and it shows. I would just get over it,move on with what is left in your life.

 

Least if that is all I was left with, the miniscule state pension,and a frozen one at that, life would not be worth living   lol     Yes there are people here with the 400/800K in the bank,living on fresh air,see them virt.every day..pathetic

More bluster from a dodger.......High ranking ______telling folk to be dodgy....Gawd..............????

 

Hey, do you post on any other thread......?...........Stop worrying, you know everything about this subject....

 

You come across "my sort" everyday, you mean, non dodgy, well there is hope for you yet...