beano2274 Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 Happy New Year to one and all Have not really been following for a long time, and have the question about Digital Nomads Is it still illegal to work as a Digital Nomad in Thailand, or have the laws been changed to allow it. If it is now allowed how does someone apply for a WP. If illegal then just say so. thanks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss1960 Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 that is a good question which I would also like to know more about, specially given the raid on the "callcenter" in BKK with the french citizens... what I read was that they were mainly arrested because they were on tourist visas, but they all claimed that they worked for french companies only... Main question for me is, digital nomad lives in Thailand, has contract with a European company and works for European business purposes only... so whom would he take a job away that he would need a work permit 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuvoc Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 If you place any weight on Integrity Legal's opinion, they have a youtube video stating that a work permit is required, but I think caveated with "to be on the safe side". Until there is an immigration or police raid, I'm not sure that we know with absolute certainty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhys Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 IT appears at times.. don't tell we don't ask.. many of Thai attempts at clarification give conflicting answers.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mokwit Posted January 12, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 12, 2020 Nowhere in the law does it make taking a job from a Thai a criteria on which whether or not you are working is judged - it may factor into a decision to prosecute or not. The law says exerting yourself productively paid or not, with amendments to exclude e.g. Exhibitors/speakers at conference, meeting for investment purposes. They have not delineated digital nomad type work amongst these in a fairly recent update (maybe because of the sheer difficulty of legislating this). Technically, you are breaking the law if you are located in Thailand, even if you are working for a foreign company with business and customers outside Thailand. In this last case if you are here for the last 10 years they might decide you are working, if you are visiting for 2 weeks I can't imagine they would prosecute in that instance. Whether you are prosecuted or not is on a case by case basis with the law as understood by the decision maker, and the possible fallout to Thailand considered if the decision goes high enough. You are dependent on a decision made, not on the letter of the law. 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyp Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 Given that digital nomad work is a grey area I would not advertise that that is what you are doing. Keep it as quiet as possible. If you are not on a long term visa or extension of stay then your next biggest problem will be being questioned by Immigration as to how you are supporting yourself if you are spending a lot of time in Thailand. Obviously “ digital nomad” is not the correct answer. Are you under/over 50 years old? How long do you think you will be here? I had a friend, in his 60’s, who was consulting online with his former employer in the US. He was getting paid in the US. When he broke up with his Thai girlfriend his ex’s friends threatened to expose him to Immigration for working without a work permit. So he quit his online job and of course lost this additional income from that job. Whether he had to do this or not he didn’t know. He got scared into quitting. The point of that anecdote is to point out that you should be careful who you talk to about your “work”. A legitimate tourist here for a short time has nothing to worry about. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acenase Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 (edited) You would think by “working” it means working for a thai company but if you break it down it can mean making money while on the premises. They can say you can’t do work and use Thai location and Thai internet to make money! But people do it anyways. Edited January 12, 2020 by acenase Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caldera Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Some nomads are more nomadic than others. If you genuinely holiday in Thailand, but need to take care of urgent work while there from the privacy of your hotel room, that's probably not something that will ever be prosecuted - even regular tourists who don't routinely work remotely could run afoul of that. If you set yourself up for working remotely from Thailand on consecutive tourist visas, on the other hand, that's more likely to attract the attention of the authorities. Anything in between is anyone's guess. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momofarang Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 It certainly isn't allowed. I'd say it is overlooked or at best tolerated by the authorities. If they had any pragmatism, they'd mandate a review on the economic impact of the population concerned and then on a cost/risk/benefit ratio decide to create a specific visa/wp, or simply firmly apply existing rules for working in the country. Unfortunately while doing so many people involved would see a new reservoir for graft, and it would end up in a mess similar to Health Insurance saga. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mokwit Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Key point WRT those delineated examples of exerting oneself productively that do not require a work permit, is that all have a perceived benefit to Thailand. Thailand did not and for now it seems will not make an exception that would be to the benefit of foreigners without there being a benefit to Thailand. That is how Thailand is. Operating here it is like running a maze - hit dead end as no benefit to Thailand, go back and try another route. Every visa I have been issued has been issued because Thailand perceived a benefit - there was no visa issued because that would be nice for me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glegolo Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 10 minutes ago, mokwit said: Key point WRT those delineated examples of exerting oneself productively that do not require a work permit, is that all have a perceived benefit to Thailand. Thailand did not and for now it seems will not make an exception that would be to the benefit of foreigners without there being a benefit to Thailand. That is how Thailand is. Operating here it is like running a maze - hit dead end as no benefit to Thailand, go back and try another route. Every visa I have been issued has been issued because Thailand perceived a benefit - there was no visa issued because that would be nice for me. BUT there is a huge benefit to Thailand by i.e. digal nomad working in Thailand. The income from that work, is most often being spent in Thailand, so that money is going directly into the economy here....... But as I sees it, is that the real problem is the citizens of Thailand, and the employees i.e. the gouverment. If they PERSONALLY do not gain from this, they are NOT interested at all, just benefits Thailand as a nation is just not enough for these corrupt bastards. it is not... glegolo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post jacko45k Posted January 13, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 13, 2020 10 minutes ago, glegolo said: BUT there is a huge benefit to Thailand by i.e. digal nomad working in Thailand. The income from that work, is most often being spent in Thailand, so that money is going directly into the economy here....... Forget that line... it is hubris... it's like the guy being turned away at immigration whining how he is a benefit to Thailand as he buys chiclets twice a week, drinks a case of beer and bar-fines on occasion. If someone is working in Thailand, he should be legitimately employed by a company with a work permit etc, or himself investing here and having a company/ business.. 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Happy Grumpy Posted January 13, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) Fully legal. You can legally do it at a Co-Working office on a Tourist Visa. As Immigration have already declared. (It isn't legally considered working in Thailand) "immigration officials said at a press conference in August that “digital nomads” – people who can work remotely from anywhere – would be able to do so on a tourist visa." https://www.chiangmaicitylife.com/citynews/general/immigration-officers-raid-popular-co-working-space/ The french guys were arrested as they were working here, in an office, for a company that was operating in Thailand. Btw, I'm not sure why it being legal enrages some posters on here, my guess is that they are struggling with all the red tape and hoops they have to jump through, and young happy guys showing up for a while on Tourist Visas, legally working remote jobs that the old hoop-jumpers can't, gets them bitter. Edited January 13, 2020 by Happy Grumpy 11 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glegolo Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 11 minutes ago, jacko45k said: Forget that line... it is hubris... it's like the guy being turned away at immigration whining how he is a benefit to Thailand as he buys chiclets twice a week, drinks a case of beer and bar-fines on occasion. If someone is working in Thailand, he should be legitimately employed by a company with a work permit etc, or himself investing here and having a company/ business.. I think this went just right "over your head".... Just comment what you understand plse...... glegolo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacko45k Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 10 minutes ago, glegolo said: I think this went just right "over your head".... Just comment what you understand plse...... glegolo It could have, but then I am not a HUGE benefit to Thailand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackdd Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 If you do a type of work which you could do from any location, for a business abroad, then this is currently (and has always been like this) not considered as working in Thailand, thus no work permit required. The only people who had problems were people who were working for a company in Thailand in an office in Thailand. Doing something like a Thailand vlog could also be considered as working in Thailand, because obviously you have to do a Thailand vlog in Thailand and can not do it anywhere. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazygourmet Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Just do not brag about it. As for everything of daily life in Thailand : K.I.S.S. Keep It Stupid & Simple Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivinLOS Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 It is clearly illegal but hard to catch and prosecute, firstly because its hard to see, and secondly because Thailand is dependant on tourism and doesnt need bad PR and hype about a 2 week holidayer getting a work call being blasted over global press. For those who live here, and are repeat extended visitors, they are not really nomads simply digital tax evaders. Getting legal is easy, but has a cost. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivinLOS Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 1 hour ago, jackdd said: If you do a type of work which you could do from any location, for a business abroad, then this is currently (and has always been like this) not considered as working in Thailand, thus no work permit required. The only people who had problems were people who were working for a company in Thailand in an office in Thailand. Doing something like a Thailand vlog could also be considered as working in Thailand, because obviously you have to do a Thailand vlog in Thailand and can not do it anywhere. False info. Repeatedly posted by people who simply ignore the many many times the labour dept have clarified that online work is work no matter where you get paid. https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/aussie-teacher-details-horrific-conditions-inside-thai-detention/news-story/d432a704bf0db1def6d79489ae1b830c Quote He said in the last year he was teaching English to Chinese students online through an Australian company, and said he was told this was fine because no money was exchanged through Thailand. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackdd Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 5 minutes ago, LivinLOS said: False info. Repeatedly posted by people who simply ignore the many many times the labour dept have clarified that online work is work no matter where you get paid. https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/aussie-teacher-details-horrific-conditions-inside-thai-detention/news-story/d432a704bf0db1def6d79489ae1b830c Where have they clarified this? Not in the article which you linked to. The article which you linked to contains hardly any details on why he was arrested (it doesn't even say he was arrested for working in Thailand, he could have been arrested for drugs or anything else). The story is covered only on this one website, i couldn't find any other website covering this. This is very odd, because Thai media and immigration police like to publish news about arresting a law breaking foreigner. Probably most of this article is made up by a sad person. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivinLOS Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 1 minute ago, jackdd said: Where have they clarified this? Not in the article which you linked to. The article which you linked to contains hardly any details on why he was arrested (it doesn't even say he was arrested for working in Thailand, he could have been arrested for drugs or anything else). The story is covered only on this one website, i couldn't find any other website covering this. This is very odd, because Thai media and immigration police like to publish news about arresting a law breaking foreigner. Probably most of this article is made up by a sad person. No people get sent through the IDC all the time without a peep hitting the media, because they are arrested and deported, and once home what does it get them. I dont mean WP violatioins, tho that happens also, I helped 2 folks through the IDC on Phuket in my time there, neither of what had any press. But where have they clarified it ?? Pretty much every time they have been properly asked. https://thethaiger.com/issues-answers/asked/do-i-need-a-business-visa-to-work-online Is earning money through online advertising, website affiliate marketing or operating a business that has only an online presence whilst staying in Thailand considered working? Would that person be required to have a “business visa”? Ting Tong Farang, Phuket Town Any foreigners working or starting a business in Thailand, online or off, need to first get a proper visa. They can apply for a Non-Immigrant B visa at a Royal Thai Embassy in their home country.Once they get it they can come to Thailand and apply for a work permit with the Department of Employment. If we find out that a foreigner is doing business online without a work permit, we will arrest them and take legal action through the court. Pol Col Panuwat Ruamrak, Superintendent of Phuket ImmigrationDoing business online is considered a type of work, so foreigners are required to have a work permit to do so. The first thing to do is get the proper business visa. Foreigners with any other type of visa generally cannot apply for a work permit. An exception to that rule is made for foreigners legally married to Thai citizens. For more information on the visas and documents required to apply for a work permit, we advise foreigners to contact us or the Department of Employment in the area they live. We need detailed information from the foreigner before advising on further action. Please call Phuket Department of Employment at 076-219660-1 ext 13 for further information. Somkiat Baiadul, an officer at the work permit division of the Phuket Department of Employment --- --- https://thethaiger.com/issues-answers/asked/is-uploading-videos-to-youtube-considered-work Is uploading videos to YouTube considered work? I have a YouTube channel showing a video diary of my travels around Thailand – promoting the country and activities here. I am trying to understand what laws I need to be aware of in relation to my current and past activities. Is uploading videos to YouTube considered work? Does it matter if I have YouTube ads turned on or off? I have many other videos on my channel, which I made 100 per cent outside Thailand – before my arrival. If I have ads turned on and am being paid for these past activities while I am in the Kingdom, is this considered work? Concerned vlogger, Thailand. No, it isn’t, as long as the uploading is for fun or to share on social media networks publicly for free. However, if you turn on YouTube ads while living in Thailand, or post them in your own blog where they can collect revenue, this could be considered work. Even if you posted videos while outside Thailand, but then activated or turned on ads related to them, this would still be considered work, as you would be making money while in the country. It means you are working while you are living in the Kingdom. However, if you activated the ads before entering the country, but still received revenue once entering the country for your holiday, then this would not be considered as working while staying in Thailand. Yaowapa Pibulpol, chief of Phuket Provincial Employment Office (PPEO). ----https://thethaiger.com/issues-answers/asked/internet-working I am a commodity trader and use the Internet for my work. My financial dealings are conducted in Australia. I am thinking of coming to Thailand to stay for short time – about three months. My question is, can I still do my trading via the Internet in Thailand without breaking any laws? Theoretically, I shan’t be working in Thailand. Travelling Trader, Perth, Western AustraliaTo do any work in Thailand you must either set up a company or partnership and apply for a work prmit, or find someone willing to employ you and to apply for a work permit for you. Otherwise you will be working illegally. We suggest that you do not work during your three-month stay in Phuket. Phuket Provincial Employment Services Office --- https://thethaiger.com/issues-answers/asked/do-i-need-a-work-permit-to-play-the-stock-market Do I need a work permit to play the stock market? I am a foreigner living in Thailand with my Thai wife and our children. I have a non-immigrant “O” visa. I hear horrible stories about work permits, the different interpretations of “work” and the consequences of not having a permit. These stories include being blacklisted regardless of your family ties and investments in Thailand. I don’t want to work here illegally. I love Thailand, its culture and the locals. I want to abide by the country’s laws. I am a private online investor in stocks, commodities and currencies in foreign markets. I work from my home here in Thailand. Setting up a Thai company is not an option. I want to avoid any misinterpretation by labor departments and/or immigration authorities and also any dangers to my family by not abiding by local laws. I’ve searched the web and asked various lawyers, but still have not received a comprehensive answer. All my investment accounts, stock exchanges and brokers are located outside of Thailand. Is my work legal? Do I need to apply for any type of work permit? Worried private investor in ThailandStock investment is not lawfully defined as work. As long as you are not working, you do not need to apply for a work permit. For example. If you are a shareholder or an executive of a company, but you do not sign documents related to the daily functions of that company, you do not need a work permit. However, you must pay income tax if you receive a stock dividend. The only documentation we are authorized to issue to foreigners working here is a work permit. If you do not work, there is no official documentation that can be issued to you. Noppadol Ployudee, chief of the Phuket Provincial Employment Office. Really, how many more times must they clarify it ?? Just go to your local labour dept and speak to the senior people there about working online for no Thai customers, they will again clarify it requires a work permit and self employed freelancing is not accepted for non Thai nationals in Thailand. This is why the BOI umbrella companies exist, to provide precisely that service. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordblackader Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 4 hours ago, Martyp said: Given that digital nomad work is a grey area I would not advertise that that is what you are doing. Keep it as quiet as possible. If you are not on a long term visa or extension of stay then your next biggest problem will be being questioned by Immigration as to how you are supporting yourself if you are spending a lot of time in Thailand. Obviously “ digital nomad” is not the correct answer. There's nothing grey about the law at all - if you are working in Thailand without an appropriate visa and work permit you are breaking the law. Whether they care or not about digital nomads is another matter. Mostly they don't until sometimes they do. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackdd Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 15 minutes ago, LivinLOS said: Really, how many more times must they clarify it ?? Just go to your local labour dept and speak to the senior people there about working online for no Thai customers, they will again clarify it requires a work permit and self employed freelancing is not accepted for non Thai nationals in Thailand. This is why the BOI umbrella companies exist, to provide precisely that service. You are not clarifying anything, you just quote some dubious sources, which don't reflect the reality, and fail to accept that you are wrong. If what you say were correct, where are the news about immigration police raiding coworking spaces and deporting the foreigners who do online work there. They are just waiting to be arrested. But this just isn't happening, so we can conclude what you say is wrong. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Grumpy Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 47 minutes ago, LivinLOS said: simply digital tax evaders. There's no problem with paying Thai income tax for remote work while based away from anyside of the business in Thailand. The same as paying tax on stock trades and property rental. No Work Permit required. Go to the Tax office, get a TIN which is your personal tax number, and pay your income tax that way. Some pensioners also do it as they pay less tax in their home country this way. No WP required for any of that, as only income earned in a type of employment that falls under the Employment of Aliens Act require a WP. Remote work, stocks, property, etc don't. ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivinLOS Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, jackdd said: You are not clarifying anything, you just quote some dubious sources, which don't reflect the reality, and fail to accept that you are wrong. If what you say were correct, where are the news about immigration police raiding coworking spaces and deporting the foreigners who do online work there. They are just waiting to be arrested. But this just isn't happening, so we can conclude what you say is wrong. Its this kind of fake logic which baffles me. Just head in the sand denial despite proof after proof. There is the law, then there is the enforcement.. If I ride past a policeman without wearing a motorcycle helmet and dont get any attention no one claims it is legal to ride without a helmet ?? Thailand is highly dependant on tourism, they are not looking to create bad PR, none of which changes the law, which is crystal clear. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivinLOS Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, Happy Grumpy said: There's no problem with paying Thai income tax for remote work while based away from anyside of the business in Thailand. The same as paying tax on stock trades and property rental. No Work Permit required. Go to the Tax office, get a TIN which is your personal tax number, and pay your income tax that way. Some pensioners also do it as they pay less tax in their home country this way. No WP required for any of that, as only income earned in a type of employment that falls under the Employment of Aliens Act require a WP. Remote work, stocks, property, etc don't. ???? And how many of those nomads do it ??? Look at the advice provided 'just keep quiet' 'dont rock the boat' 'tell no one' etc etc etc.. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mokwit Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Just now, Happy Grumpy said: No WP required for any of that, as only income earned in a type of employment that falls under the Employment of Aliens Act Exerting oneself productively covers everything other than those that have been previously and fairly recently delineated as not requiring work permit. Online work for company overseas was not amongst them. In practice they may not prosecute in many/most cases. While I am here, aren't those umbrella companies having problems with visas now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivinLOS Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 1 minute ago, mokwit said: While I am here, aren't those umbrella companies having problems with visas now. Not heard that, although I did hear they are being more strict that it needs to be tech related amd less generalist. I havent verified that or spoken to anyone there directly I heard that through bamboo network so.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mokwit Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Just now, LivinLOS said: Not heard that, although I did hear they are being more strict I was referencing from memory a post or thread here seemingly stating that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackdd Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 5 minutes ago, LivinLOS said: Its this kind of fake logic which baffles me. Just head in the sand denial despite proof after proof. Your "proof" is a website which probably made the stuff up, you didn't post even one official or independently confirmable proof. 6 minutes ago, LivinLOS said: There is the law, then there is the enforcement.. If I ride past a policeman without wearing a motorcycle helmet and dont get any attention no one claims it is legal to ride without a helmet ?? Thailand is highly dependant on tourism, they are not looking to create bad PR, none of which changes the law, which is crystal clear. I see Thailand creating bad PR all the time, doesn't look like they care much about this. If i remember correctly i told you this before, but here we go again: If you think you are right look for a random coworking space no Google, then take your phone, call 1178 and inform immigration police about people working there. Shouldn't take too long until we will have news about foreigners in a coworking space having been arrested for working online. In case you don't want to prove your point i don't know why you are still posting here providing wrong information. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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