Germany's other migration wave: the pensioner exodus

[snoop1130]

Germany's other migration wave: the pensioner exodus

By Stoyan Nenov, Thomas Escritt

 

Waldemar Hackstaetter and his wife Hildegard pose for a picture in front of their house in the village of Sirakovo, Bulgaria, December 13, 2019. REUTERS/Stoyan Nenov

 

SIRAKOVO, Bulgaria (Reuters) - As retirement neared a decade ago, German butcher Waldemar Hackstaetter took stock of his finances and concluded he and wife Hildegard couldn’t afford to remain in their home country.

 

So they moved to rural Bulgaria, where they knew their combined income of 1,200 euros (£1,026) would buy a lot more.

 

“The month stretched further than our pension did (in Germany) and we didn’t want to become a burden to our children,” 78-year-old Waldemar said.

 

If the Hackstaetters were pioneer emigrants, they are now part of what is slowly becoming a diaspora.

 

Since they left, Germany’s economy has prospered, drawing a steady flow of immigrants that peaked with over a million who crossed its borders at the invitation of Chancellor Angela Merkel during the refugee crisis of 2015.

 

Over the same ten years, numbers of German retirees persuaded by poverty to move the other way have risen as much as eightfold.

 

While modest in absolute terms, the trend is clear. In 2002, 107 Germans were getting their state pensions wired to Bulgaria. By 2018 it was 652. The equivalent increase in Thailand was from 671 to 5,415.

 

Many, like the Hackstaetters, will have emigrated for economic reasons, and growing numbers of pensioners in Germany are now living below the poverty line.

 

That loss of purchasing power has been a factor in the flood of elderly citizens - a traditionally loyal conservative voter base - who have ditched Merkel’s mainstream alliance for more radical parties, weakening her position as head of government.

 

Others in that category interviewed by Reuters here cited the perception that asylum seekers were getting more financial support than pensioners.

 

In the 2017 national election, one in ten voters in the 60-69 age group deserted the chancellor’s CDU/CSU conservative alliance and one in 12 switched to the far-right AfD.

 

A row over state pensions has come close to dismantling Merkel’s coalition with the centre-left Social Democrats. In November they agreed to create a “basic pension” for people who have been employed all their working lives.

 

But that truce appears fragile, and the debate over pensions is expected to be a pivotal factor in the next national election earmarked for 2021.

 

While German pensions have outstripped inflation over the past decade, inequalities have also grown. The proportion of pensioners living in poverty rose to 19% last year from 16% in 2017, federal data shows.

 

“HOME IS WHERE I CAN AFFORD”

 

“For me, home is where I can afford to live, and I can’t live in Germany,” said Waldemar.

 

Sirakovo, the village where he and Hildegard settled, has drawn other elderly Germans while many of its younger Bulgarian residents have left to work abroad.

 

So Germany’s economically driven pensioner exodus mirrors, albeit on a far smaller scale, the flows of young migrants from poor to richer countries, with both groups often facing uncertain futures.

 

Joerg Dunsbach, a German Catholic priest who ministers to compatriots in Thailand, speaks sadly of those who die unmourned after emigrating on retirement and losing contact with their families.

 

“Every year, 40 to 60 German, Swiss or Austrian citizens die here alone, almost all of them pensioners,” he said.

 

But in Sirakovo, the good life goes on.

 

The Hackstaetters’ German neighbour, Brigitte Haager-Horn, has come round for drinks.

 

“I find it ...a terrible sign of impoverishment that so many pensioners can’t manage in Germany,” she said.

 

“But I’m very grateful to be here. This year I’ve managed to make my first batch of homemade wine, and my first rakija (brandy),” she said. “Cheers!”

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2020-01-17

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[chrisandsu]

When a country spends more money on housing , feeding , healthcare , police , on a section of the country who will contribute next to nothing other then a kebab then they do on their own people who created the prosperity then they should be ashamed . 

[sirineou]

It's a shame where after working a lifetime and helping to build a country you cant even afford to live there. 

[champers]

The French bring chaos to the country if Government messes with their pensions. Fair play to them.

 

Edited January 17, 2020 by champers

[DaRoadrunner]

5 hours ago, snoop1130 said:

asylum seekers were getting more financial support than pensioners.

About says it all. And not only in Germany.

[Roy Baht]

The next time you complain about SE Asian countries raising their requirements for retirement visas, remember the fact that the West is flooding the world with retirees who can't afford to retire in their own countries. So, when it comes to accepting Western retirees, non-Western countries are free to pick and choose who they want to accept.

[TheDark]

On 1/17/2020 at 5:49 PM, snoop1130 said:

 

So they moved to rural Bulgaria, where they knew their combined income of 1,200 euros (£1,026) would buy a lot more.

What is this all about?

 

I thought pensions are more like 2500 to 3500 euros per person?

What's going on here? Are pensions around Europe really that low in general? 1200 per person or even 600 per person?

That's <deleted> up. 

[Cryingdick]

It's like a frog in a boiling pot. How on God's green earth does somebody sit around for 4 or 5 decades and then suddenly realize they haven't prepared for retirement? 

 

The economic refugees also compound the problem as now they are a government expense and do not pay the taxes or contribute to their homeland. If you do personally I am not aiming this at you. I am talking about people who live solely off of government entitlements, never visit their home country, and have no other income source, except maybe a small savings. 

 

I can only speak for the situation in the USA but I feel that when you ditch America your SS should be cut. Living abroad is a privilege and a personal choice.

 

When pension schemes were thought up to give people basic security people weren't flying around the world. The money spent abroad doesn't feed the economy back home and creates a burden for the next generation who will not be lucky enough to receive benefits at the same age or if ever.

 

Government schemes are meant to aid retirement. Anybody in their right mind has separate investments to achieve a more comfortable retirement.

 

I just can't imagine sitting around for 40 or 50 years and then wake up one morning and conclude I had better move to Bulgaria. Do they not have retirement planners over there?

 

That's the problem. People think the government will take care of them and give it no more thought. When the government fails to provide anything other than the most basic existence they are in disbelief. 

 

This is nothing more than an equation. When you put the minimum in you get the minimum out. Oh, and don't assume the gubernment got your back with all dem entitlements.

 

 

 

 

 

[ThomasThBKK]

19 hours ago, TheDark said:

What is this all about?

 

I thought pensions are more like 2500 to 3500 euros per person?

What's going on here? Are pensions around Europe really that low in general? 1200 per person or even 600 per person?

That's <deleted> up. 

yes they are that low if you barely worked. I don't know anyone with such a low pension tho.

 

https://www.thelocal.de/20191023/how-does-germanys-pension-system-measure-up-worldwide

 

it's actually one of the better pension systems compared to many many other western countries. And it's relatively cheap to life in germany. And no - refugees don't get more money.

 

Old age poverty is a serious problem everywhere and pensions are always a net negative, if you have your private investments instead of wasting money paying in the pension system you are way better off.

 

The main issue is women pensions, because many women in that generation have never worked as they had many children and stayed at home they get considerably less than men. 

 

 

There's also a basic pension now, that everyone will get and is on top of it, but it's so low...doesn't help much: https://www.dw.com/en/german-government-strikes-deal-on-basic-pension/a-51192993 

 

18.6 percent of german gross income is for the pension fund afaik

 

lets say u earn 3500 eur gross per month, 42k a year. 

7812 eur u pay for ur pension each year in taxes.

 

u work 45 years. 7812 eur each year since 1973 into the S&P 500 would have given you 3 million USD... let's just ignore all the inflation and variying salaries etc.

 

Pretty damn bad job that the governments do with our money, for me the pension systems are all a scam.

[TheDark]

3 minutes ago, Cryingdick said:

It's like a frog in a boiling pot. How on God's green earth does somebody sit around for 4 or 5 decades and then suddenly realize they haven't prepared for retirement? 

 

This used to be the fact in wellkept societies, where having fair pension replaced the need to have multiple children, who would in their term take care of their parents. 

 

That's what we call progress. No longer having to produce kids, simply to be able to survive old age, because one hates our common society aka being too much socialist. 

[ThomasThBKK]

6 minutes ago, Cryingdick said:

. I am talking about people who live solely off of government entitlements, never visit their home country, and have no other income source, except maybe a small savings.

Not possible in germany, the moment you leave you have no longer any social security payments, you cannot go on holiday/leave more than 2 weeks or so per year.

 

Pension of course is different, you are entitled if you leave, you already worked for your pension anyway. 

[White Christmas13]

2 hours ago, sirineou said:

It's a shame where after working a lifetime and helping to build a country you cant even afford to live there. 

my sister and the whole family lives in Germany,they all have their own house and can afford to go in holidays a couple of times a year I guess that particular couple lived beyond their means, just look at that house I've seen better houses in Thailand.

[chrisandsu]

39 minutes ago, Cryingdick said:

It's like a frog in a boiling pot. How on God's green earth does somebody sit around for 4 or 5 decades and then suddenly realize they haven't prepared for retirement? 

 

The economic refugees also compound the problem as now they are a government expense and do not pay the taxes or contribute to their homeland. If you do personally I am not aiming this at you. I am talking about people who live solely off of government entitlements, never visit their home country, and have no other income source, except maybe a small savings. 

 

I can only speak for the situation in the USA but I feel that when you ditch America your SS should be cut. Living abroad is a privilege and a personal choice.

 

When pension schemes were thought up to give people basic security people weren't flying around the world. The money spent abroad doesn't feed the economy back home and creates a burden for the next generation who will not be lucky enough to receive benefits at the same age or if ever.

 

Government schemes are meant to aid retirement. Anybody in their right mind has separate investments to achieve a more comfortable retirement.

 

I just can't imagine sitting around for 40 or 50 years and then wake up one morning and conclude I had better move to Bulgaria. Do they not have retirement planners over there?

 

That's the problem. People think the government will take care of them and give it no more thought. When the government fails to provide anything other than the most basic existence they are in disbelief. 

 

This is nothing more than an equation. When you put the minimum in you get the minimum out. Oh, and don't assume the gubernment got your back with all dem entitlements.

 

 

 

 

 

Such an American way of looking at things . Not everyone in this life is blessed with a job/self employment that can earn enough to be able to save enough or anything in retirement. Europeans are forced to pay excessively high taxes to offset the cost of old age . When they get there after a lifetime of work inflation has outstripped the money they are supposed to live on ! I say get rid of welfare altogether and get rid of parasite economic migrants . 

Edited January 17, 2020 by chrisandsu

[papa al]

2 hours ago, DaRoadrunner said:

About says it all. And not only in Germany.

California

[nausea]

1 hour ago, ThomasThBKK said:

yes they are that low if you barely worked. I don't know anyone with such a low pension tho.

Thanks for that. Yeah, I was initially puzzled too as I thought Germany had a relatively generous pension scheme, compared to the UK anyway. Incidentally, in my more cynical moments I sometimes think the hordes of migrants were invited to prop up the pension system, rather than through humanitarian concerns. As for the French, well good luck to them, and retiring early is fine and dandy for the current crop of workers, but someone on the their side needs to explain how it's all supposed to be financed, long term I mean. To me it smacks a little of an "I'm alright Jack attitude" and bu#*er the future generations, who'll be paying for it.

[candide]

4 hours ago, DaRoadrunner said:

About says it all. And not only in Germany.

You conveniently omitted a part of the quote in order to support your prejudiced view. The exact quote is:

"Others in that category interviewed by Reuters here cited the perception that asylum seekers were getting more financial support than pensioners."

Others...perception...

 

More generally, Germany's problem is the decrease of population so that there are not enough young people to pay for old people's pensions. Immigration is the only way for Germany to finance pensions and to maintain growth.

[chrisandsu]

13 minutes ago, candide said:

You conveniently omitted a part of the quote in order to support your prejudiced view. The exact quote is:

"Others in that category interviewed by Reuters here cited the perception that asylum seekers were getting more financial support than pensioners."

Others...perception...

 

More generally, Germany's problem is the decrease of population so that there are not enough young people to pay for old people's pensions. Immigration is the only way for Germany to finance pensions and to maintain growth.

Or Do something novel like give the native family’s tax breaks and free child care . Got to be cheaper then prisons and social disorder . 

[candide]

44 minutes ago, chrisandsu said:

Or Do something novel like give the native family’s tax breaks and free child care . Got to be cheaper then prisons and social disorder . 

Actually, it seems the main problem is that there very few nurseries so that women need to stop working when they have young kids. Anyway, on short term, they have no other choice than immigration.

[ezzra]

6 hours ago, Roy Baht said:

The next time you complain about SE Asian countries raising their requirements for retirement visas, remember the fact that the West is flooding the world with retirees who can't afford to retire in their own countries. So, when it comes to accepting Western retirees, non-Western countries are free to pick and choose who they want to accept.

Thailand is NOT interested in these kind of income, they prefer and like those who come in for a few days blow a bundle of tourists amenities and facilities and go back, and not increasing the foreigners base in this country that to the Thai people spells only headaches and problems..

[chrisandsu]

1 hour ago, ezzra said:

Thailand is NOT interested in these kind of income, they prefer and like those who come in for a few days blow a bundle of tourists amenities and facilities and go back, and not increasing the foreigners base in this country that to the Thai people spells only headaches and problems..

I could understand that if these old timers were coming here with their hands out demanding welfare ! (like the bottoms feeders we get in the West) they spend their money asking for nothing in return . It’s actually a net gain having them in Thailand . 

[chrisandsu]

2 hours ago, candide said:

Actually, it seems the main problem is that there very few nurseries so that women need to stop working when they have young kids. Anyway, on short term, they have no other choice than immigration.

Short term it helps no one other then making government agencies bigger . Long term it’s creating a crime epidemic the like Europe has never seen before ! Look at Sweden for example .

[LivinLOS]

8 hours ago, Cryingdick said:

It's like a frog in a boiling pot. How on God's green earth does somebody sit around for 4 or 5 decades and then suddenly realize they haven't prepared for retirement? 

I dont know which country you come from, but these northern european social states have for always had government pension systems that worked.. 

 

You work your whole life, paying 50% plus taxes, have strong holiday and healthcare, and a government pension.. 

 

They have prepared to retirement, in the sense they were lead to trust the government system which took thier earnings during thier working life. 

US and to a lesser extent the UK, are much more private pension minded, or at least having a top up to government pension systems. 

[Deli]

Can totally understand them. You work your ass of for 40 years, pay to the mandatory Government fund and what they give at the age of 65 or later you doesn't let you live.

 

Great Government they have, makes me sick. There's money for everything but not for their own people, time for a change in Berlin.

Edited January 18, 2020 by Deli

[DPKANKAN]

10 hours ago, sirineou said:

It's a shame where after working a lifetime and helping to build a country you cant even afford to live there. 

And not just Germany. I could not live on my UK pension here in Thailand, after 43 years of paying in, let alone the UK!!!

[fxe1200]

Have a look at Austria. There the average retirement payout is about 800 Euros more per month, than in Germany. In Austria every single person has to contribute to the public retirement funds. All government officials and people hired by the government in Germany are NOT paying into the public retirement fund. They will receive a pension directly from the state after they hit the retirement age. Besides, persons with an income of 6700Euro or more per month, are not legally bound to pay into that fund. This system is unjust and facilitates old-age poverty.

[BritManToo]

9 hours ago, TheDark said:

What's going on here? Are pensions around Europe really that low in general? 1200 per person or even 600 per person?
That's frucked up. 

My UK government pension is 150 pounds/week (620 pounds/month).

[cnx101]

9 hours ago, TheDark said:

What is this all about?

 

I thought pensions are more like 2500 to 3500 euros per person?

What's going on here? Are pensions around Europe really that low in general? 1200 per person or even 600 per person?

That's frucked up. 

Same the Uk if your an immigrant etc they give you everything if your English they give you nothing.

[BritManToo]

9 hours ago, Cryingdick said:

Government schemes are meant to aid retirement. Anybody in their right mind has separate investments to achieve a more comfortable retirement.

You think factory workers, bus drivers, road sweepers, shelf stackers, cabbies, dustmen et al have spare money to make investments? You must be living in a different world to me.

Edited January 18, 2020 by BritManToo

[StayinThailand2much]

Well done, Merkel, feeding and housing  Syrians, Pakistanis, and Africans, while letting Germany's pensioners starve! Not to mention extreme housing crisis, widespread homelessness, and lack of investment in education and infrastructure. Germany would be better off, if former East Germany had sent her to Siberia...

Edited January 18, 2020 by StayinThailand2much

[StayinThailand2much]

15 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

You think factory workers, bus drivers, road sweepers, shelf stackers, cabbies, dustmen et al have spare money to make investments? You must be living in a different world to me.

True. After 2005, Germany fostered 1-euro-jobs (so an hourly pay as in Thailand!) and "Ich-AG" (one-man enterprises), result in impoverished middle class and communities. Exports and unemployment went down. Many of the newly created jobs (many part-time) do not pay the bills, and pensioners (who, on average still do well, compared to low-income earners) find it more and more difficult to have a decent lifestyle.

The average pension there, by the way, in 2019 was 1,200 euros (barely 40,000 baht), meaning your average German pensioner, at 66, could not even get a retirement visa extension here, based on that meager pension.

Edited January 18, 2020 by StayinThailand2much