Buying gold bars (or not)

[Brunolem]

12 hours ago, Farangwithaplan said:

International options in 1kg. http://www.mtsgold.co.th/en/products/detail.php?ID=92&SCODE=ProGoldBullion

 

MTS also have their own brand 99.99% in 50gm, 100gm, 250, and 500 gram. http://www.mtsgold.co.th/en/products/detail.php?ID=93&SCODE=ProGoldBullion

 

I have used this company in the past for jewelry and bars for both buying and selling and found them very professional. If you want bars, better to book at a local store or head directly to Yaowarat store where they will have stock on hand generally. Give them a call.

I also recommended MTS in a previous post...if you are looking for 99.9% gold, since very few gold shops have these kinds of bars (made in Thailand, not imported).

 

Anyway, what you buy also depends on where you might decide to sell later on.

 

In Thailand, 96.5%, or 23 carat gold is bought and sold easily anywhere.

 

Yet, gold shops will also buy 18 or 24 carat gold with the appropriate price adjustment...they don't really care...

 

Outside Thailand, things may not be so easy, and certainly not so cheap since many countries tax gold transactions, not to mention the paperwork (see Germany recently).

 

 

[cooked]

On 3/3/2020 at 8:46 PM, DaRoadrunner said:

And just where are you going to keep all this physical gold? (Not that we want to know so we can break in to your place one night). Why not buy a gold ETF online?

The whole point of physical gold in the end, is that it isn't a mere piece of paper or internet nonsense that will very possibly be worthless in a generation or two, but something that will likely still be accepted anywhere now or in the future that civilisation rears its ugly head. Any smuggler / drug runner / arms merchant will tell you that. It can be kept in the same place that you keep your Kalashnikov. 

Pieces of paper saying "I promise to pay" a certain value for the gold in question have been sold to the extent that the entire planet probably doesn't contain that much gold. 

I was paying ฿16 500.- when I first came here and have been buying every year since, now ฿25 000.-.

[Oxx]

1 hour ago, cooked said:

The whole point of physical gold in the end, is that it isn't a mere piece of paper

 

A "mere piece of paper" backed by the full faith and credit of the US government? I'd take that over a bar of yellow, shiny metal that has few industrial uses and no intrinsic value, and which tends to fall dramatically in value.  Gold (in US$ terms) fell 25% in 1975, 32% in 1981, 15% in 1983 and a further 19% in 1984.  Down 16% in 1986, 22% in 1997, and 28% in 2013.

 

(Not that I'm completely against gold.  I have a few bars that my partner can sell in the event that I'm incapacitated or dead, just to tide things over.  I don't, however, see it in any way as an "investment".)

[Brunolem]

6 hours ago, Oxx said:

 

A "mere piece of paper" backed by the full faith and credit of the US government? I'd take that over a bar of yellow, shiny metal that has few industrial uses and no intrinsic value, and which tends to fall dramatically in value.  Gold (in US$ terms) fell 25% in 1975, 32% in 1981, 15% in 1983 and a further 19% in 1984.  Down 16% in 1986, 22% in 1997, and 28% in 2013.

 

 

What a wonderful sense of humor..."the full faith of the US government"!!!

 

There is nothing more worthless than that on planet Earth!

 

Just look at all these countries which had signed deals with the US, only to discover that they can be cancelled overnight, at the whim of the warmonger in chief that happens to be in power at that time.

 

Having said that, gold is not the only asset that happens to fall from time to time...they all do!

 

Just look at oil...and keep in mind that despite the Dow being at all time high, it has still to catch up with gold since the beginning of this century.

 

[Javier]

Why not just buy the ETF GLD on SET? It is so much simpler.

[Oxx]

6 minutes ago, Javier said:

Why not just buy the ETF GLD on SET? It is so much simpler.

 

With an annual management charge of 1.6% according to Morningstar Thailand.  It may be simple, but it's not value for money.

 

Did notice, however, that the current price is the same as it was in 2013, so in seven years it's simply gone nowhere and not a single baht in income.  (And pre-2013 the price was higher.)  That's pretty dire.  You'd have been better off putting the money in a bank savings account.

 

 

[Javier]

53 minutes ago, Oxx said:

 

With an annual management charge of 1.6% according to Morningstar Thailand.  It may be simple, but it's not value for money.

 

Did notice, however, that the current price is the same as it was in 2013, so in seven years it's simply gone nowhere and not a single baht in income.  (And pre-2013 the price was higher.)  That's pretty dire.  You'd have been better off putting the money in a bank savings account.

 

 

With a strong baht on one hand and gold price going higher as days passes. I would still prefer to buy GLD on SET. Will sell before year end though.

[Dazinoz]

1 hour ago, Oxx said:

Did notice, however, that the current price is the same as it was in 2013, so in seven years it's simply gone nowhere and not a single baht in income.  (And pre-2013 the price was higher.)  That's pretty dire.  You'd have been better off putting the money in a bank savings account.

Over the last few years I have been buying and selling Thai gold bars at a cost average of 19846baht/baht. I currently have 37 baht and todays value is 24800baht/baht. So 37 x (24800-19846)=183,298baht profit if I sold today. Bit better thank banks.

 

Just wonder why so many people hate gold.

[Oxx]

23 minutes ago, Dazinoz said:

Over the last few years I have been buying and selling Thai gold bars at a cost average of 19846baht/baht.

 

You are suspiciously vague about the precise period over which you've been buying the gold.  Perhaps hiding what a pathetic investment it's been in real terms?

[Vigilante]

On 3/4/2020 at 7:33 PM, Number 6 said:

Your big problem was the silver.

 

Singapore has many vaults and boxes you can store or buy virtual gold, they hold it for minor storage fee and yes you can claim it. Half dozen online.

They can hold it alright until Zombie Apocalypse kicks in..

..then, all bets are off.

Of course someone can say..  'what are the chances of a Z.A?'

'Anything from 0.1 to 100%' I would say. ????

 

I am toying w/the idea of buying gold myself.

As others have noted, problems abound.

What I would look to do...buy physical....certified bars 99.9%...bury it..secret from everyone(incl the mrs)

A host of problems right there.

 

 

 

[Dazinoz]

10 minutes ago, Oxx said:

 

You are suspiciously vague about the precise period over which you've been buying the gold.  Perhaps hiding what a pathetic investment it's been in real terms?

Yet another assuming expert. How am I hiding a pathetic return? Quoted how much I paid on average and how much its worth today, not simple enough for you?

 

And the time frame less than 7 years as that's how long I have been here I would say around 5.

 

Amazing how every one thinks they know everything about other people businesses.

Edited March 7, 2020 by Dazinoz

[Number 6]

5 minutes ago, Vigilante said:

They can hold it alright until Zombie Apocalypse kicks in..

..then, all bets are off.

Of course someone can say..  'what are the chances of a Z.A?'

'Anything from 0.1 to 100%' I would say. ????

 

I am toying w/the idea of buying gold myself.

As others have noted, problems abound.

What I would look to do...buy physical....certified bars 99.9%...bury it..secret from everyone(incl the mrs)

A host of problems right there.

 

 

 

Tom my mind it's the best option for holding metals in Asia.

 

In Thailand you can't trust box safety boxes, in home safes. What about having to get 2kg of gold out of the country tomorrow. Yikes.

 

Singapore gold is practically currency. It's safer than Switzerland imo. Especially living here

Edited March 7, 2020 by Number 6

[Vigilante]

.

 

Edited March 7, 2020 by Vigilante

[Brunolem]

56 minutes ago, Oxx said:

Perhaps hiding what a pathetic investment it's been in real terms?

You clearly don't know what gold is.

 

It is not an imvestment, it is money, real money not created at will by the truckload, and it is an insurance against fake/fiat money returning to its intrinsic value (see Voltaire for more on that)...

[Brunolem]

1 hour ago, Dazinoz said:

 

Just wonder why so many people hate gold.

Banksters and their supporters hate gold, because it is real money that reveals the constant depreciation of the fake/fiat money they create at will...

 

Also, the believers in the miraculously ever performing financial markets, jumping from all time high to all time high, hate gold because it reveals the total fallacy of today's markets, propped up by central banks rather than real economic performance.

 

[Oxx]

1 hour ago, Brunolem said:

You clearly don't know what gold is.

 

It is not an imvestment, it is money, real money not created at will by the truckload, and it is an insurance against fake/fiat money returning to its intrinsic value (see Voltaire for more on that)...

And what intrinsic value does gold have? Pretty sure it's close to zero.

[Dazinoz]

1 hour ago, Oxx said:

And what intrinsic value does gold have? Pretty sure it's close to zero.

From Investopedia.

 

"Some people argue that gold has no intrinsic value, that it is a barbaric relic which no longer holds the monetary qualities of the past. They contend that in a modern economic environment, paper currency is the money of choice; that gold's only worth is as a material to make jewelry."

[meechai]

11 hours ago, Oxx said:

And what intrinsic value does gold have? Pretty sure it's close to zero.

Funny then that all Central Banks hold a fair amount of it... ????

[Oxx]

1 hour ago, meechai said:

Funny then that all Central Banks hold a fair amount of it... ????

Simply not true.  Armenia, Canada, Croatia, Georgia, Israel, Ivory Coast, Kosovo, Montenegro, New Zealand, Norway and Panama hold none.  Other countries such as China and Japan have minuscule amounts (< 2.5% of their reserves).

 

Those countries with low allocations to gold often have sovereign wealth funds, investing in equities which (a) provide income, and (b) will reliably increase in capital value over the long term.  In other words, they invest their money.

 

And for those countries that hold it, it's not as an investment, but as protection against the potential ravages of local currency inflation.

 

 

[CH1961]

17 hours ago, Dazinoz said:

I currently have 37 baht

You should have a shotgun too ... just in case ????

[Dazinoz]

1 hour ago, CH1961 said:

You should have a shotgun too ... just in case ????

Yep. But not many people know where I live and if anyone finds it they probably deserve it.

 

The good thing about the bars is 37 baht doesn't take up much room.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Dazinoz

[Oxx]

Just how good is gold as an investment? Here's a chart of a Gold ETF and an S&P 500 ETF since May 2011 (the earliest date for which data are available for both ETFs)*.

 

 

I know which I'd rather own.

 

* The specific ETFs are iShares Physical Gold ETC (GBP) [SGLN] and iShares Core S&P 500 UCITS ETF USD (Acc) GBP [CSP1], both listed on the London Stock Exchange.

[Brunolem]

4 hours ago, Oxx said:

Simply not true.  Armenia, Canada, Croatia, Georgia, Israel, Ivory Coast, Kosovo, Montenegro, New Zealand, Norway and Panama hold none.  Other countries such as China and Japan have minuscule amounts (< 2.5% of their reserves).

 

 

Nice cherrypicking... 

 

China has been hoarding gold for years, but as usual with this country, it is impossible to know the true numbers. 

 

Russia has also been buying a lot, as well as many Eastern European countries, such as Poland. 

 

Others, like Germany or Holland, have repatriated their gold held abroad. 

 

Meanwhile, central banks have been buying hands over fists for the past two years... it's all there, in the official stats, not just the stats of Montenegro or Panama, but the global ones. 

 

It is strange that, centuries after centuries, and failure after failure, there are still many people who believe that wealth can be created out of thin air, by simply creating paper money. 

 

Of course the market indexes are overperforming, with hundreds of billions of (fake) money injected into them month after month, by central banks. 

 

They are like an athlete doped to his eyeballs, who smashes record after record, until he collapses... 

 

How long can the global markets be propelled ever higher by steroids/money injections? 

 

We will have the answer soon enough... this decade for sure... and it's not gonna be pretty... 

 

 

[Dazinoz]

7 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

How long can the global markets be propelled ever higher by steroids/money injections? 

 

We will have the answer soon enough... this decade for sure... and it's not gonna be pretty... 

 

Nah, will never happen, everything rosey (according to many self appointed financial experts on TVF).

[Oxx]

29 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

How long can the global markets be propelled ever higher by steroids/money injections?

 

Equity market growth is driven by company growth:  companies grow, sell more, make more profit, and their share prices typically go up.  If ever a day comes when there are no new consumers, and no new products, then maybe growth will stall.  Can't see that happening for a few centuries yet.

[Brunolem]

1 minute ago, Oxx said:

 

Equity market growth is driven by company growth:  companies grow, sell more, make more profit, and their share prices typically go up.  If ever a day comes when there are no new consumers, and no new products, then maybe growth will stall.  Can't see that happening for a few centuries yet.

Wow... where do you get your financial information? 

 

Even the likes of Goldman Sachs admit that the markets are propelled by central banks, and certainly not by corporations performances... just look at Tesla if you are not convinced. 

 

In fact everyone knows what's going on, except the central banks (at least officially), and you, it seems. 

 

On top of that, these same corporations have never been so indebted, at the worst possible time. 

 

Next, you gonna tell me I should invest in shale oil junk bonds... just as Saudi Arabia has decided to flush the market with oil... 

 

The coming days and weeks are not gonna be pretty... hold on to your paper, while I will hold on to my metal... 

 

[Susco]

4 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

14 minutes ago, Oxx said:

 

Equity market growth is driven by company growth:  companies grow, sell more, make more profit, and their share prices typically go up.  If ever a day comes when there are no new consumers, and no new products, then maybe growth will stall.  Can't see that happening for a few centuries yet.

Wow... where do you get your financial information? 

 Probably from www.ignorant.com.

 

If you see that Tesla for example sold a total of 400K cars worldwide in 2019, and the stock market value exceeds the combined value of BMW & VW which sold something like ~13 million cars in the same time span, then it's obvious that the equity prices are not of this world

[xylophone]

23 minutes ago, Susco said:

 Probably from www.ignorant.com.

 

If you see that Tesla for example sold a total of 400K cars worldwide in 2019, and the stock market value exceeds the combined value of BMW & VW which sold something like ~13 million cars in the same time span, then it's obvious that the equity prices are not of this world

Equity markets are driven by fear and greed.......a quote as I recall, and very applicable now.

 

Liked your Tesla example.

[owl sees all]

6 hours ago, Oxx said:

Simply not true.  Armenia, Canada, Croatia, Georgia, Israel, Ivory Coast, Kosovo, Montenegro, New Zealand, Norway and Panama hold none.  Other countries such as China and Japan have minuscule amounts (< 2.5% of their reserves).

 

Those countries with low allocations to gold often have sovereign wealth funds, investing in equities which (a) provide income, and (b) will reliably increase in capital value over the long term.  In other words, they invest their money.

 

And for those countries that hold it, it's not as an investment, but as protection against the potential ravages of local currency inflation.

 

 

China has 23,000 tonnes of gold.

[Oxx]

31 minutes ago, Susco said:

 Probably from www.ignorant.com.

 

If you see that Tesla for example sold a total of 400K cars worldwide in 2019, and the stock market value exceeds the combined value of BMW & VW which sold something like ~13 million cars in the same time span, then it's obvious that the equity prices are not of this world

 

Did you get that from ignorant.com?  Stock prices are based upon forecast dividend levels.  BMW and VW are old industries, with limited growth prospects.  Tesla is a new industry with massive growth potential.  There are people who believe that Tesla's future growth justifies the high share price.