The revolution that wasn’t: Bernie Sanders' second presidential bid falls to earth

[Berkshire]

37 minutes ago, rosst said:

Always the attacks on socialism characterize it as Communism.  Socialist policy can and does sit within the capitalist democratic framework in many countries.  Universal healthcare and fair financial support for the unemployed are achievable goals for any democratic capitalist government that is not being bought by the globalist elite.  It is not an either or debate.  But then again, can it happen in the US ??? 

To your last sentence, NO.  While I understand what Bernie was advocating, the idea of socialism is not palatable to most Americans because it requires giving too much power and control to the government.  And when that happens, inefficiency and corruption will surely follow.  That's what has happened to every country who follows that model.  Scandinavian countries, by the way, are not true socialist countries. 

 

Yes, America can practice capitalism with a heart.  But if you want to avoid turning people off, just call it a progressive policy as opposed to a socialist policy. 

[Enoon]

56 minutes ago, rosst said:

Always the attacks on socialism characterize it as Communism.  Socialist policy can and does sit within the capitalist democratic framework in many countries.  Universal healthcare and fair financial support for the unemployed are achievable goals for any democratic capitalist government that is not being bought by the globalist elite.  It is not an either or debate.  But then again, can it happen in the US ??? 

"But then again, can it happen in the US ???"

 

Not where there exists such widespread, rigid, unthinking, doctrinaire opposition to the integration, where appropriate and workable, of Socialistic policy.

 

To be reviewed post-COVID.

 

 

Edited March 19, 2020 by Enoon

[Jingthing]

4 hours ago, Kelsall said:

The DNC's Operation Screw Bernie is now complete.

 

Mission Accomplished!

Nonsense. The voters didn't want him. End of. 

[Jingthing]

3 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I wonder when Americans will realize that social programs would be great for all those people who will now lose their jobs, have no money, insurance, etc. 

They do but they didn't want him to be president. They didn't think he could beat 45. 

[Jingthing]

3 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The smart move is for Biden to give Sanders a cabinet post.

 

Build a broad coalition to oust Trump. 

Why smart? That happens after he's elected president. Being a veteran senator is a great job. I agree Biden and Bernie need to put on a strong show of total unity and mutual respect to beat 45 but I don't get your logic. The truth is that policy-wise Biden and Bernie are not very far apart but Biden is a much easier sell to the American public. Particularly in Florida!

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Sir Swagman said:

Unfortunately Biden has little resonance with younger voters, Bernie does. Without the support of younger voters it is unlikely Biden will win and the dimwit and his cronies now in power will be re-elected by the gullible, the unthinking, the selfish and similarly dim witted part of the electorate that put such a conman in place to begin with.

So what? Young people don't turn out to vote! Bernie's disastrous primaries proves that yet again. The USA isn't Australia. Turnout is almost everything.

 

Who does turn out to vote? Black women and black women are totally into Uncle Joe Biden.

 

The point is to WIN. The point is to evict the worst president in American history -- 45.

Edited March 19, 2020 by Jingthing

[heybruce]

4 hours ago, Kelsall said:

The DNC's Operation Screw Bernie is now complete.

 

Mission Accomplished!

How did the DNC screw Bernie in this election?

 

Sander's supporters didn't turn out to vote for him.  That's all there is to it.

[AussieBob18]

49 minutes ago, rosst said:

Always the attacks on socialism characterize it as Communism.  Socialist policy can and does sit within the capitalist democratic framework in many countries.  Universal healthcare and fair financial support for the unemployed are achievable goals for any democratic capitalist government that is not being bought by the globalist elite.  It is not an either or debate.  But then again, can it happen in the US ??? 

They are both the same really - Socialism takes/holds power by convincing the People (Venezuala, Sweden, ), and Communism takes/holds power through forcing the People (USSR, China, Nth Korea). Basically the difference is Marxist-Lenonist States and non-Marxist-Lenonist States - same same really - where do you draw the line?

 

However, your point is right that within a Capitalist Democratic Society, there exists the capability of Socialist programs such as Health and Social Support.  But take it from me, and my Swedish mate, the problem is that once you start those 'social programs', it will be hard to keep them 'down' so that the essence of a capitalist  competitive society is not lost.  Both Australia and Sweden have become socialist nanny states - the Govt feels it is their 'duty' to run all aspects of people's lives - and many 'dependent' people are happy to give away their freedoms and rights in exchange for that support - it is a never ending vicious cycle that is pushing both our countries towards socialism - Sweden is winning the 'race to the bottom' at the moment. 

 

So that is the issue in the USA - can they have some social programs and keep them under control - experience tells me and my mate that they cannot.       

[new2here]

I think that a lot of it is timing... had the Republican incumbent *not* been someone who is as polarizing as Trump, then I think Sanders would have had a better showing... but it seems to me that the first and foremost issue for many on the Democratic side really is who is more electable against Trump and far less about Sanders himself and his policies/ideas.

 

Together with that, I’m just not so sure that the “average” American - center to center-left leaning - is really and truly prepared to accept someone whose views and ideas are so far from what today is considered to be “mainstream”... they may make great rallying cries and slogans, but I think that’s something different from real world implementation and acceptance. 

[Monomial]

16 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

So what? Young people don't turn out to vote! Bernie's disastrous primaries proves that yet again. The USA isn't Australia. Turnout is almost everything.

 

Who does turn out to vote? Black women and black women are totally into Uncle Joe Biden.

 

The point is to WIN. The point is to evict the worst president in American history -- 45.

 

If the point was to WIN the democrats wouldn't be promoting Biden as a choice.  He is simply Hillary 2.0, and will suffer the same fate. The Democratic party needs someone who will radically change the existing status quo if they have any hope to WIN.  As it stands now, we are destined for 4 more years of Trump.

 

Remember in November...this is what you wanted.

 

[Jingthing]

The majority of democrats think correctly that a second term for 45 is an existential threat to American democracy. So perceived electability became the number one issue with democrats. It was decided by democratic voters that Biden has a better chance to beat 45 than Bernie. Why? Because Bernie can be easily painted as a commie. Fair or true or not is not the point! Again, it's about winning and evicting the worst president in American history. Biden will be nominated and then we'll see whether the democratic primary voters were right or not. But it's time to move on to eyes on the prize -- the democrats taking the white house, flipping the senate, and keeping the house.

Edited March 19, 2020 by Jingthing

[phkauf]

2 minutes ago, heybruce said:

How did the DNC screw Bernie in this election?

 

Sander's supporters didn't turn out to vote for him.  That's all there is to it.

Let's see:

Biden gets smoked in the first two primaries and the DNC and media gets spooked it will be Bernie. So Biden wins SC (a solid Red State) with massive support from black voters. Immediately he is enthroned as the leader again and two of the promising competitors (Pete and Klobuchar) are forced out before Super Tuesday. At that point Pete had more delegates than Biden. If they stayed in, Biden's Super Tuesday would have been less impressive.

The media and DNC have been covering up Biden's slow descent into dementia. Sure he looks good at times, but there are far too many <deleted> episodes that serious questions need to be asked.

Bloomberg was just in it to prevent Bernie from becoming the nominee.

But just like 2016, the DNC got their preferred candidate and somehow I think they will get the same result of Trump winning. Trump will not hold his punches in a debate and I feel Biden will have a Stockdale moment (Why I am I here?).

 

[Saint Nick]

11 minutes ago, AussieBob18 said:

They are both the same really - Socialism takes/holds power by convincing the People (Venezuala, Sweden, ), and Communism takes/holds power through forcing the People (USSR, China, Nth Korea). Basically the difference is Marxist-Lenonist States and non-Marxist-Lenonist States - same same really - where do you draw the line?

 

However, your point is right that within a Capitalist Democratic Society, there exists the capability of Socialist programs such as Health and Social Support.  But take it from me, and my Swedish mate, the problem is that once you start those 'social programs', it will be hard to keep them 'down' so that the essence of a capitalist  competitive society is not lost.  Both Australia and Sweden have become socialist nanny states - the Govt feels it is their 'duty' to run all aspects of people's lives - and many 'dependent' people are happy to give away their freedoms and rights in exchange for that support - it is a never ending vicious cycle that is pushing both our countries towards socialism - Sweden is winning the 'race to the bottom' at the moment. 

 

So that is the issue in the USA - can they have some social programs and keep them under control - experience tells me and my mate that they cannot.       

WHAT?

They are both the same, really?

Socialism CONVINCES people and Communism FORCES people....

So...apart from you, having no clue what either one is and that neither Nort Korea, nor the USSR (or others) EVER practized Communism more than calling their facist state by that name: there is no difference, if people are CONVINCED about or FORCED INTO a polital system?

 

Man...seriously...

[Saint Nick]

I was always a strong Bernie - supporter, but would now urge all of "us" to vote for Biden, even if he is just the lesser of 2 evils!

Unfortunately (if the Corona- virus doesn't sink Trump), I think the orange facist will mop the floor with Biden!

He simply offer too many points that are worth (and possible) attacking!

And by that, I don't mean his obvious frail state of "mind", but all his lies, his record on wars, social security and and and...

Biden wants to go back to normal!

Remember: "normal" was what gave us Trump!

 

It is a bit annoying that "voting for the lesser evil" is all that is left!

[lannarebirth]

31 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

So what? Young people don't turn out to vote! Bernie's disastrous primaries proves that yet again. The USA isn't Australia. Turnout is almost everything.

 

Who does turn out to vote? Black women and black women are totally into Uncle Joe Biden.

 

The point is to WIN. The point is to evict the worst president in American history -- 45.

Yeah, but Black women always vote in large numbers for the Democrat candidate so that's already baked in. There aren't more Black women to get after you've got all the Black women.

[mercman24]

and now they got a senile old puppet that cannot string a sentence together, sure i saw someone with their hand stuck up his ass, making his mouth move, the powers in the background working well.

[bristolboy]

31 minutes ago, mercman24 said:

and now they got a senile old puppet that cannot string a sentence together, sure i saw someone with their hand stuck up his ass, making his mouth move, the powers in the background working well.

Stop disrespecting President Trump!

On the other hand...

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/article239918518.html

Edited March 19, 2020 by bristolboy

[Emdog]

Young people may support Sanders, but they somehow forget to vote. Planet America on Aus channel had nice breakdown: around 19% 18-29 vote, over 50 crowd around 57%. Bernie had horrible numbers in over 60 crowd.

Universal health care makes dollars and sense. Check out Yale Medical School study: would save $450billion per year. per year! My bro is hard core republican businessman (hated Obama but doesn't care for Trump): he is in favor of universal care just based on cost. It should not be connected to left or right politics.

[Monomial]

1 hour ago, lannarebirth said:

Yeah, but Black women always vote in large numbers for the Democrat candidate so that's already baked in. There aren't more Black women to get after you've got all the Black women.

 

Exactly. The voters who matter in this election are the 40 year old voters in the swing states. Everyone else is already baked in. These are the people who have watched their careers destroyed, can't make their mortgage payments and feel hopeless. They want radical change. The black female vote would still go Democratic even if the chosen candidate were a utility pole (I believe that was the reference used in one of the Thai elections).

 

If you want to win, concern yourself with those who previously voted Trump, and find out why. Opinions have not changed in 4 years. If anything, they've been magnified.

 

 

[bristolboy]

6 minutes ago, TopDeadSenter said:

Wrong. No1 is Saudi Arabia

 

What planet do you get your numbers from? Common sense says that given the size of the Saudi Arabian economy, there's no way it could be number 1. In fact, it's #3. But a very  very distant #3.

In 2018 The USA spent 649 billion dollars. Saudi Arabia spent 67.6 billion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

[Nyezhov]

3 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I find it almost funny when some people like to show off their ignorance regarding socialism and communism.

Did you watch too much right wing propaganda? Or are you in general uneducated and ignorant?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

 

Personally, Id rather read Pipes, Radek, Lenin, Marx, Figes, Service, Stalin et al  to learn why Bernies brand of Comminism is unnaceptable to Americans. But hey, you use Wikpedia.

[bristolboy]

2 minutes ago, Nyezhov said:

Personally, Id rather read Pipes, Radek, Lenin, Marx, Figes, Service, Stalin et al  to learn why Bernies brand of Comminism is unnaceptable to Americans. But hey, you use Wikpedia.

First you would have to establish that Sanders is actually a communist. Which is obviously nonsense.  You need coherent arguments to establish your intellectual credentials. Not empty name dropping.

[Chiphigh]

6 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I wonder when Americans will realize that social programs would be great for all those people who will now lose their jobs, have no money, insurance, etc. 

I wonder if small countries with practically no military who depend on nato for their protection and have massive fuel taxes, a vat/gst plus higher income tax will stop the virtue signaling and ridiculous assertions of what "free" stuff should be available, while the size and cost of the bureaucracy to support an exponentially larger country is ignored. 

Edited March 19, 2020 by Chiphigh

[bristolboy]

2 minutes ago, Chiphigh said:

I wonder if small countries with practically no military who depend on nato for their protection and have massive fuel taxes, a vat/gst plus higher income tax will stop the virtue signaling and ridiculous assertions of what "free" stuff should be available, while the size and cost of the bureaucracy to support an exponentially larger country is ignored. 

Actually, this makes no sense. Borders between countries always impose costs. But if your assertion were correct than the levels of taxation and cost of government in the USA would be far greater than any country in Europe. 

[GeorgeCross]

all those great candidates and you picked the one who has an unhealthy fixation on touching women, has a string of corruption allegations hanging over him and his family AND can't remember the first line of the declaration of independence 

 

 

[Chiphigh]

4 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Actually, this makes no sense. Borders between countries always impose costs. But if your assertion were correct than the levels of taxation and cost of government in the USA would be far greater than any country in Europe. 

Yes, if we were to adopt the free stuff policies the tax increases would be astronomical. So would the size of the already inefficient unaccountable federal bureaucracy. Which is why it will never be acceptable. 

[Saint Nick]

Actually I blame MSNBC and CNN (among others) for Bernie's loss!

The "electability" - campaign these networks where running, the half- truths and flat out lies, they told about Sanders and the ignoring of Biden's gaffes, lies and his voting records, were simply amazing!

 

All Trump would have had on Sanders, would have been to sream "socialist" from every mountain.

Look at how that worked out, over the years!

It made Bernie the MOST POPULAR politian in the USA!

By a mile!

 

You may disagree with his politics (I don't know, why you would, but...ok!), but he has been consitantly fighting for "the little man".

Human rights, womens rights, minority rights, anti- war, pro universal healthcare...you name it!

The USA (like many others) once ahain, is voting againts their own interests, because they are being fed lie after lie after lie!

 

Good luck Joe Biden (because I don't want 4 more Trump- years!)

You will need it soooo badly!

 

Edited March 19, 2020 by Saint Nick

[Thingamabob]

Anyone who thinks Biden has any chance of winning against Trump has a screw loose. He is senile and corrupt, and this will become obvious during the debates.

[xylophone]

8 minutes ago, Thingamabob said:

Anyone who thinks Biden has any chance of winning against Trump has a screw loose. He is senile and corrupt, and this will become obvious during the debates.

The good thing is that trump also has these "attributes" and a whole load more!

[from the home of CC]

and when he asked for Greta to be his running mate it was all over for him..