Can you identify this engine?

[xerostar]

Can anyone identify this engine?

The only clue is the embossed words on the cam cover:

"Twin overhead cam 24 valve"

 

 

[Don Mega]

looks like a Naturally aspirated 1JZ (maybe 2JZ) Toyota inline 6.

Edited March 29, 2020 by Don Mega

[Just Weird]

20 minutes ago, Don Mega said:

looks like a Naturally aspirated 1JZ (maybe 2JZ) Toyota inline 6.

That's what it is.

[Kwasaki]

19 minutes ago, Just Weird said:

That's what it is.

Don't think so, it looks old, don't even look like the M series.

Is that distributor I see. ? 

[Kwasaki]

46 minutes ago, xerostar said:

Can anyone identify this engine?

Where did you get the pix.

[Don Mega]

2 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Don't think so, it looks old, don't even look like the M series.

Is that distributor I see. ? 

https://blog.carro.co/toyota-jz-engine/

[xerostar]

Thanks for your feedback.

The engine is installed in a Tata Xenon single pickup 2010 model.

The original vehicle had a CNG system.  This has been removed (including the gas cylinder) leaving only the original reserve gasoline tank which holds about 15 litres.

Has anyone had experience with this engine?

At present It's so out-of-tune that the vehicle is almost impossible to drive.

It's seems to be flooding, a lot of petrol smell and popping sounds in the exhaust.

When I floor the accelerator, it bogs down with a sound similar to a Mac truck decelerating.

When I try to take off into traffic there is no power at all and the car basically slows to a stop.  If I gently press the accelerator it can reach a sweet spot and begin to move the car and with gear changes I can get up to speed.  However if I try to speed up quickly, it behaves the same and bogs down with now power.  Hopefully somebody will be able to give me a few tips on how to get it running well enough (to drive to a mechanic that knows what to do).  I am using 95 octane at the pump.

gallery_used-car-one2car-tata-xenon-giant-pickup-thailand_7953406_EZwnbaZqCNu9P6w1Bw37Kq.jfif

[AussieBob18]

Could be that the timing is massively off ?  There are tools to check for that but I assume you dont have them? Try losing mounting bolt/s and rotating the distributor a little one way or the other.  If it improves go a little more that way - find the sweet spot if you can. If it is worse, then go the other way.  Turn engine off each time - dont do it running - too many things can go wrong. 

 

Edited March 29, 2020 by AussieBob18

[Just Weird]

43 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Don't think so, it looks old, don't even look like the M series.

Is that distributor I see. ? 

That's ok, I know that it is!  The JZs are pretty old now!

[xerostar]

One positive point is that there is no blue smoke from the exhaust !

There is a socket labeled "diagnosis" so I am hopeful somebody will have a suitable instrument to give a more accurate proof of what needs work.

[canthai55]

I would look for an intake leak - symptoms described fit that to a Tee

[xerostar]

A few more pics of the engine. Note the "no name" camshaft cover. Probably had a Toyota sticker originally.  Note the gear lever alterations and makeshift boot.  I will listen (with a bit of hose) to see if I can detect a leak around the inlet manifold.  If there's nothing there I will try moving the distributor slightly. I have a timing light but it's buried deep in a storage trunk with some stuff I brought from Australia (that's another long sad story). 

Can you imagine the bad looks when I drive into a Toyota service centre?

"No have! Mai me! and No can do for you, ha ha! 

[canthai55]

Once engine warm, you can spray WD40 around any areas you can't see. If the idle speed increases, you have found a leak.

If that don't help, could be a MAF, TPS, or the wiring connecting them to the ECU.

If I had to bet I would not think it was ignition related.

But I been wrong before !

[Kwasaki]

5 hours ago, xerostar said:

One positive point is that there is no blue smoke from the exhaust !

There is a socket labeled "diagnosis" so I am hopeful somebody will have a suitable instrument to give a more accurate proof of what needs work.

Yeah get it plugged into a computer.

[tifino]

what is it like at Idle? 

If bad; I'd also checked the integrity of the PCV componentry. 

Plus that noise! - has the Intake Resonator section been removed? - which could also lead to insufficient resealing of the vacuum if not plugged properly... 

[xerostar]

3 hours ago, canthai55 said:

I would look for an intake leak - symptoms described fit that to a Tee

 

1 hour ago, canthai55 said:

Once engine warm, you can spray WD40 around any areas you can't see. If the idle speed increases, you have found a leak.

If that don't help, could be a MAF, TPS, or the wiring connecting them to the ECU.

If I had to bet I would not think it was ignition related.

But I been wrong before !

I will try those tips thanks.  I did loosen the distributor but the improvement was right on the limit of adjustment.  I will remove the plugs and check if they have been changed in the last 30 years.  Could lead breakdown be a cause ?  It would not surprise me if the cam alignment was not correct before the timing chain was fitted. but I guess that would make it run very badly even at idle.  The engine type reminds me of an old Jaguar engine that I had experience with in a Mark 7 and and an XK-120 back in the early 70's.

[canthai55]

1 minute ago, xerostar said:

Could lead breakdown be a cause ?

You said above that if you ease the throttle open a slight amount you can accelerate to cruise speed.

A bad spark plug or coil wire would prevent this.

A bad TPS or MAF would - possibly - allow you to accelerate as you describe.

But the engine needs troubleshooting. Start with the easy things first.

KISS - keep it simple stupid - my Daddy used to say.

 

[xerostar]

I will try the WD40 spray around the intake and see what happens at idle.

Looking at getting a decent petrol tank I will have to remove 6 large bolts that hold the rear tray in place.  There are two curved seats where the gas cylinder used to be located. (see photo)

I wonder if I could get somebody to make a petrol tank out of an old steel gas cylinder ?

(noting major precautions needed before any welding or cutting).  Just need to weld on a filler tube and cap, a provision for a fuel-gauge sender and an outlet to the motor which reminds me, I have not seen a fuel pump yet - only a fuel filter near the tank. Is that a light bulb moment?  Where to look for a pump?

Also trying to make sense of the wiring on the Tata - it all seems to be Mickey Mouse wire that you'd associate with amateur electronics - very thin wires.

[Coremouse]

If it's early non-vvti engine it might oblivious of any obd interface, usually they require jumping E1 and TE1 in diag port then count lights.

 

Only worked on Toyota enignes with mapm you'll know they vacuum leak when idle high and hunting, and won't smooth out when you pulled vac hose( to rule out stuck idle up ). Dunno how about maf perhaps just start carb cleaner locating as others said. 

Edited April 3, 2020 by Coremouse

[Toosetinmyways]

Curious why the Toyota label removed. Has the engine change been noted in the blue book?

[Coremouse]

On 3/29/2020 at 7:57 PM, xerostar said:

I will try the WD40 spray around the intake and see what happens at idle.

Looking at getting a decent petrol tank I will have to remove 6 large bolts that hold the rear tray in place.  There are two curved seats where the gas cylinder used to be located. (see photo)

I wonder if I could get somebody to make a petrol tank out of an old steel gas cylinder ?

(noting major precautions needed before any welding or cutting).  Just need to weld on a filler tube and cap, a provision for a fuel-gauge sender and an outlet to the motor which reminds me, I have not seen a fuel pump yet - only a fuel filter near the tank. Is that a light bulb moment?  Where to look for a pump?

Also trying to make sense of the wiring on the Tata - it all seems to be Mickey Mouse wire that you'd associate with amateur electronics - very thin wires.

 

Does the tank looks like this? It seems may have external pump, as pickup tube only have an filter at the end:

https://oriparts.com/3/113/806/354050

 

Welding used pressure vessel could be very dangerous, If I do a fuel cell I would do it new with 6061 thick aluminium also lighter and better resistant corrosion. Also wiki says Tata Xenon are assembled in Thailand, so if need fuel tank perhaps could get decent used ones locally, just my speculation

[Coremouse]

[xerostar]

Thanks Coremouse. I appreciate your input.

Yes I will look for an original tank like that one in the drawing.

A lot easier wIth all the correct accessories.

The DW40 sprayed around the intake manifold did not make any difference to idling.

I wonder if the problem is fuel starvation?

Seems logical if there is not enough fuel pressure.

I note that all the electrical connections are present next to each inlet port, however the little rubber hoses have been blocked with screws. I assume they had an important function as part of the fuel injection system?

I checked the plugs - they look new, no brown deposits, a little sooty that's all.

I gave the distributor cap and the rubber fittings around the plugs a good clean inside and out.  Now the idling is a lot smoother.  I also checked the cam alignment at TDC and they appear correct.  There were no indented marks on the pulleys, just some permanent marker on each one which makes me wonder if they were installed correctly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Coremouse]

2 hours ago, xerostar said:

Thanks Coremouse. I appreciate your input.

Yes I will look for an original tank like that one in the drawing.

A lot easier wIth all the correct accessories.

The DW40 sprayed around the intake manifold did not make any difference to idling.

I wonder if the problem is fuel starvation?

Seems logical if there is not enough fuel pressure.

I note that all the electrical connections are present next to each inlet port, however the little rubber hoses have been blocked with screws. I assume they had an important function as part of the fuel injection system?

I checked the plugs - they look new, no brown deposits, a little sooty that's all.

I gave the distributor cap and the rubber fittings around the plugs a good clean inside and out.  Now the idling is a lot smoother.  I also checked the cam alignment at TDC and they appear correct.  There were no indented marks on the pulleys, just some permanent marker on each one which makes me wonder if they were installed correctly.

 

Actually just saw your car had CNG from factory, not sure it still retains brackets for normal fuel tank. If can't find appropriate fuel tank, I'd just put a rectangular fuel cell( with normal in-tank pump replace the external ) in cargo secure then cover up. Not best solution, but guarantee frustration-free vs. fabricate one fit the frame. 

 

Also unless have lots of time and tools I suggest find a capable shop to diagnose. As DIY repair an old engine could leads everywhere or nowhere. JZs are very popular swaps many modification-shop could do proper repair and tuning I suppose

 

--------------------------------------------------------

 

Never worked on MAF cars but if DIY I'd go from obvious, first to rule out missfire especially it's running rich, is the car shaking much when idle? all leads have spark? all injectors working / correct size? spark plugs correct gap? I had a L4 running 3 cylinders it's somehow very like yours description

 

Then check vacuum leak, this'll also cause jerk when accelaration, especially MAF with unmetered air. does the engine idle higher or hunting? Pull off a vac hose from manifold to see any change

 

Then do a cold compression / leakdown test, to get picture how each cylinder doing mechanically, low comp always cause bad ignition. Also when driving notice if any knocking sound from engine.

 

( Then check if idle up stuck engine is choking, but this won't affecting wot accelaration so unlikely )

( Then check fuel pressure / fuel filter, but this only affect high load so unlikely )

( Base ignition timing could also be retarded since it's running CNG, but usually it won't be so dramatic as undrivable. )

( Also check cam timing and valvetrain, usually don't slip but when did could be very dramatic )

 

Also could be any sensor/ ECU goes off. Since it's a swapped older engine testing at home could be quite challenging. If the problem is extremely inconsistent and random the more like to be ECU related. 

 

Edited April 3, 2020 by Coremouse

[canthai55]

Re: fuel tank ...

Measure the space you have, source a replacement tank with all required parts that fits the hole. This ensures you can always find parts.

Plumb, wire, done deal.

Some place like this ...

https://www.rungroat.com/ติดต่อเรา/