Should I go Solar?

[LukKrueng]

I'm getting a bit fed up with black-outs / brown outs / and all sort of electrical network disruptions. We had few good years but now it's getting bad again.

In the past 6 months my minimum usage was 140 kWh and max 197, avaraging about 157 kWh.

The only appliance that works full time is an old medium size fridge. I

have a 6000 Watt water heater (using max power only during the cold season), water pump that kicks in evertime I open a tap and a 3000W (max power) oven.

Other than that mostly light (all LED), ceiling fans (usually only 1 works but sometimes 2-3 at the same time- don't remember the max output), a notebook, desktop and a TV screen.

 

I am thinking about 2 options:

1. Full time solar system, and relying on PEA only if/when batteries dry out

2. A backup system the will only kick in incase of PEA supply distruption (but only if it is possible to set it in an automatick way so I have no actual disruption)

 

Any advice as for how to calculate and configure a suietable system will be appreciated. Links or directions to a good trustable supplier in Chiang Mai province will be great.

 

Thank you ????

[HashBrownHarry]

I'm sure someone will be along shortly with some info.

 

I kinda looked into this quite a few years ago but was scared off with quotes / prices that were being talked about.

 

Will follow this with interest as i'd also prefer to be off grid.

[northsouthdevide]

I'm also considering going solar on a planned new build. 

Apart from a few solar street lights in my drive, I'm also pretty much a novice. 

I've been mulling over a hybrid system, eather with, or without batteries, tied to the grid via a phase one hook up. 

At the moment, I'm on phase 3, and my energy bills are very expensive, so won't be going down that road. 

Anyway, while reading a story the other day in the bkk post, a pop up add appeared for a solar company in hua Hin. 

They said they will serve anywhere in Thailand for the same price. 

They seem very professional, so I saved it to my home screen, and will be giving them a call in the future.    They are called hua Hin solar solutions and their contact link gives you their Facebook page. 

There's also a tel number 0640528172. 

 

After plenty of ups and downs with workmen in this country, I've decided that when choosing my solar system, I'm not going to do what I've done in the past, and that's compromise. 

Not with electric. 

 

[brokenbone]

i would install a diesel electric generator with automatic start that kicks in when electric goes spasmic

Edited April 19, 2020 by brokenbone

[Puchaiyank]

Purchase a generator as backup...some will use both gasoline and/or propane...you may be as able to connect directly to your incoming PEA power and do a simple switch over at time of need.

 

My experience is that solar power on a small scale is expensive to purchase and maintain...batteries are still the Achilles heel...

 

Batteries may not last long enough to make your purchase economically feasible.  If solar is used as a backup...using only sporadically, equipment deteriorates prior to gaining good use...

 

Solar as an interesting hobby or experiment is rather expensive...

[liddelljohn]

My house in UK has full solar 4kw panels and batteries  for 5 years  , we feed excess power to the grid and get paid for it ,, its a win win and thats in UK

 

Solar Installation for my home in Thailand  should be  ano brainer !!!!

But cost of installation in Thailand quotes have been double that of UK   ,,

also most of the availble gear I have seen in LOS is over priced rubbish ,

 

Until January I did have a nice 1.8kw generator  well hidden behind my house  and locked inside a little shed ,, but some scroat  nicked it ..

Edited April 19, 2020 by liddelljohn

[CharlieH]

Happy to hear otherwise, but personally I havnt heard of ONE full Solar system being installed successfully and operational.

 

I do however know of disasters and BIG  financial losses and legal battles.

 

Best of luck with your plans.

[liddelljohn]

Lots of large Commercial systems in Thailand but they also seem hit and miss because of the lack of trained  design , installation and maintenace personel .

 

In Uk the systems work well despite the climate ,, but is trained personel that is  vital

 

[Metropolitian]

1 hour ago, LukKrueng said:

I am thinking about 2 options:

1. Full time solar system, and relying on PEA only if/when batteries dry out

2. A backup system the will only kick in incase of PEA supply distruption (but only if it is possible to set it in an automatick way so I have no actual disruption)

 

Consider a combination from both worlds but instead of using batteries do feeding back the solar energy to the grid.

This is only useful if the generated electric is lower then your consumption as PEA (and MEA) is not giving you money back for the power delivered to them, unless you have a contract with them and even then it's not profitable.

I have solarcells and it is ongrid system and it lowers my monthly bills. About 100thb per one panel, which depends on your price per unit.

 

Do you have a digital (smart meter) or a classic wheel meter?

If you have the digital one, you have to use that what you gains from the sun at the same day. If it is a disc wheel one you can turn off electric and not use anything but the fridge and in the weekend use up all the energy from that week.  Only make sure on the day the PEA come checks the meter that the wheel is not turning back.

 

The generator, with an automatic switch then can be used for blackouts.

I don't have that as I am using the battery method and blackouts doesn't happen that much here compared with other locations.

 

Check this thread, which has information that you could use.

 

And this thread, especially the 'UPS' part in the first post:

 

[Metropolitian]

The price for installing solar are far apart between professional installation and DIY.
DIY is something pretty affordable these days, and even for mounting the panels that you buy beforehand and to put them on the roof you can let that do to handymans or a local spark for a fixed price, not much many are happy to help you for 500thb.

Professional installations they want that you buy the panels with them and the prices are high, much much higher.

[SidJames]

Do not use batteries!!!

They are still basically the same batteries that are in lorries/trucks, heavy gel batteries that last 6-8 years if you're lucky.

The industry has been promising big grown up versions of the lithium compound batteries that our phones use for years with nothing in sight yet.

Go solar but only direct & rely on PEA for night or heavy cloud/rainy days.

A diesel back-up generator is a good investment but don't get one that is just powerful enough to feed your house, get one that is more powerful so that it doesn't have to run at 100% when needed because it will burn out.

Look at DC pumps etc but remember that they won't work unless their is solar PV power.

If you can get an overseas retiree who's worked on the rigs or Oz that has knowledge then try to get them to advise & self install using local workers (the panels are very easy to fit if you do it correctly).

There are 2 types of panels I understand so ask about both.

The main problem here is the lack of knowledge, training & engineering as was pointed out on here by another very knowledgeable poster.

Good luck & let us know how you get on please.

[Metropolitian]

2 hours ago, CharlieH said:

Happy to hear otherwise, but personally I havnt heard of ONE full Solar system being installed successfully and operational.

After all those years it is still up and giving the right answers, only need a bit of (sun)light.

 

 

Batteries? Never changed them.

 

????

 

2 hours ago, CharlieH said:

I do however know of disasters and BIG  financial losses and legal battles.

 

Best of luck with your plans.

Agree, especially when batteries prematurely fails or the overall cost were higher then calculated and having the point of return miscalculated with the lifetime of the products.

 

For me, if in the next 2 years everything goes as it is now and that is say that the unit price is not going up and the panels not breaking by (natural) disaster and the same for the inverter. Then after 2 years everything is a profit till something breaks.

Batteries here are only in the UPS for the computers, nothing more. Even they will be changed with lithium batteries which I already have but waiting for the old (gel) batteries failing.

[Crossy]

For our OP some quick and dirty calculations.

 

Let's say 200 units per month usage, that's about 7 units a day.

 

Our 300 W panels generate about 1 unit per day each, we have 8 so we get around 8 units per day on average.

 

Our system is described here:- https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1120934-how-about-a-solar-car-port-on-a-budget/

 

Our system is on-grid (no batteries) and the meter goes backwards if we are generating more power than we are using during the day. This is "net-metering" and there are thousands of systems like this in Thailand.

 

One big plus of on-grid is that if your consumption goes over the rating of your inverter you just use more power from the grid, nothing blows up.

 

BUT

 

Net-metering it officially not permitted, indeed we have a couple of members who have fallen foul of this and had no-reverse meters installed, much to their annoyance:- https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1154704-grid-tie-in-solar-power-new-changes-or-is-it-just-me/

 

SO

 

Current options would be:-

• If you just want to reduce your bills and won't go into export much then go on-grid.
• If you want to reduce your bills but will likely go into export a fair bit go on-grid and take the risk of annoying PEA or disable export on meter-man days.
• Join the My Solar Roof scheme and get the poor feed-in tariff (you also need to use approved equipment and approved installers = $$$).

Neither of the above provide any form of UPS functionality, mains go off so does the solar. We have a genset as backup which pre-dates the solar.

 

If you want to keep power during blackouts then a hybrid system would be the answer, these are grid-tie but have small battery banks to keep essential power on when the grid is out.

 

The unit I link to below also has the facility to do "zero export" meaning if more solar is being generated than is being used excess power is stored in the batteries and released when the sun goes behind a cloud. In principle it tries to keep grid consumption at zero.

 

Something like this http://www.sofarsolar.com/product-detail/497/HYD 6000-ES

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 20, 2020 by Crossy
Added diagram

[BritManToo]

20 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Our 300 W panels generate about 1 unit per day each, we have 8 so we get around 8 units per day on average.

My 2 panels manage much the same ........... this month 19 days have generated 37.6 units.

But I'm also grid tie, no mains = no solar.

[CharlieH]

5 hours ago, Metropolitian said:

After all those years it is still up and giving the right answers, only need a bit of (sun)light.

 

 

Batteries? Never changed them.

 

????

 

Agree, especially when batteries prematurely fails or the overall cost were higher then calculated and having the point of return miscalculated with the lifetime of the products.

 

For me, if in the next 2 years everything goes as it is now and that is say that the unit price is not going up and the panels not breaking by (natural) disaster and the same for the inverter. Then after 2 years everything is a profit till something breaks.

Batteries here are only in the UPS for the computers, nothing more. Even they will be changed with lithium batteries which I already have but waiting for the old (gel) batteries failing.

I Dont apreciate sarcasm !

I said "full system"  meaning full domestic installation, that was installed and worked correctly !

[LukKrueng]

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

Neither of the above provide any form of UPS functionality, mains go off so does the solar. We have a genset as backup which pre-dates the solar.

 

If you want to keep power during blackouts then a hybrid system would be the answer, these are grid-tie but have small battery banks to keep essential power on when the grid is out.

 

The unit I link to below also has the facility to do "zero export" meaning if more solar is being generated than is being used excess power is stored in the batteries and released when the sun goes behind a cloud. In principle it tries to keep grid consumption at zero.

I think you have perfectly described what I want - long lasting UPS system... With the current prices of complete solar systems and how long they last (especialy baterries), and the price of electricity here, it will probably never actually cover the costs. But the black-outs - sometimes just few minutes, other times can be for hours, as well as power surge and drops, sometimes just off/on (I am not sure I use correct terminology but I trust you understand what I mean).

I am pretty sure all those disturbances are not healthy for most appliances (I had an auto-gate and an underground dog fence fried due to power surges  - so those 2 are connected to an old UPS with a current regulator for protection). So basically all I want to get is a regular undistrupted electicity at the most effective cost both for buying/installing and future maintanance. 

I thought a solar system might get me that, but seems most people here think there are better solutions?

[Crossy]

@LukKrueng are you thinking of DIYing this (or using local help) rather than a "professional" installer. If so do have a read of the solar carport thread I linked to earlier, you can save a significant wad.

 

For you I would suggest the 3 or 4kW versions of the inverter I linked to with 8 or 10 300W panels (in two strings). All versions of the inverter have a 3kW "essential" output which will drive everything except the oven and water heater.

 

For batteries it depends how long you need the essential output to stay on (of course depends upon load) and whether you want the meter to go backwards ever (you really want to avoid being a net-exporter).

 

To store the entire output of the solar (10 panels) so the meter never goes in reverse you would need 10kWhr of battery which would be 16 x 100Hhr 12V batteries (in groups of 4 for 48V).

 

In reality I'd start off with 8 (or even 6) panels and one set of batteries and see how it goes. It's easy to add panels and batteries.

[Crossy]

That said ^^^.

 

A small genset with auto-start, UPS's on the technology and maybe an AVR would likely work out cheaper initially.

 

I've got another thread on DIYing an autostart generator and transfer switch (read to the end).

 

 

[Crossy]

The hybrid inverter I linked to has an EPS switch time of 10ms according to the Sofar data, should be ok as a UPS. 

[LukKrueng]

4 out of my last 6 electric bills were just around 520THB and the 2 highest bills were 645 and 750 THB so I am not trying to save there.

 

I think my best solution will be:

1. Some sort of current regulator

2. Small backup generator (I can live without baking / hot shower and probably even with low presure shower ie no pump for few hours, but I'd like to have lights / fans / chargers and possibly a cup of coffee...)

3. The auto gen-stop from Crossy's other thread

 

Any suggestions/ recomendations for those?

[LukKrueng]

4 minutes ago, Arjen said:

The auto gen start is more important for you I think? 

I'd love to have auto start/off, but in the thread I was referring to Crossy came up with a working and cheap solution only for the off part...

[Crossy]

15 minutes ago, LukKrueng said:

I'd love to have auto start/off, but in the thread I was referring to Crossy came up with a working and cheap solution only for the off part...

 

Did I say read it to the end?

 

It contains all the iterations as they happened including how to modify the choke on the Kwaithong generator and a really (really, really) cheap auto-start box.

[LukKrueng]

39 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

Did I say read it to the end?

 

It contains all the iterations as they happened including how to modify the choke on the Kwaithong generator and a really (really, really) cheap auto-start box.

Yes you did - my bad... Will go back to it ????

While we're at it - do you recomend Kwaithong generator? Gasoine or deisel? Any specific model? If I rule out all the heavy duty appliances such as oven / water heater / water pump and live only fridge / lights / a fan or 2 - what level of output am I looking at?

 

As for AVR per suggestion of @arjen - can I use that on the main lines or only between the generator and the house?

[Crossy]

Our AVR (20kVA for the whole house except water heaters) is actually before the transfer switch, the genset powering the load once the AVR has given up trying the regulate the mains (150V minimum input voltage). It's important to note that our system has "evolved" rather than been designed, bits have been nailed on to fix specific issues.

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1008193-installing-an-automatic-voltage-regulator-avr/

 

If I was doing it now I would go a different way, and the choices of genset are much wider too. The Kwaithong was bought during the Great Flood and was a case of "we have this, take it or leave it" at the local farm shop. It's actually been infinitely reliable needing only a carb service and a new fuel cock along with a couple of replacement batteries (and oil changes of course). But, it is NOISY!!!

 

I would recommend having a look in your local Global or the like, there are some very nice diesel gensets (both "silent" and less silent) which already have the auto start gubbins built in and should have matching transfer switches available. Your sparks should be able to hook it all up.

 

I say diesel because the fuel is cheaper and doesn't go off like petrol does. These simple diesels will also run on your used cooking oil if you don't mind the exhaust smelling of fried fish. We have an old chap who goes round the local restaurants buying their used oil (at one time they paid him to take it away), he mixes 50/50 with diesel and runs his old indirect-injection Nissan pickup on it. I would not try it with a common-rail engine!

 

I wouldn't go less than 5kVA, that will run everything except the water heater without getting stressed.

 

 

[liddelljohn]

the system i have in Uk has inverter  , regulator and auto switching from mains grid to battery the batteries are Lithium Iron

[Metropolitian]

3 hours ago, Crossy said:

Did I say read it to the end?

Maybe this sign was missing

????

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

If I was doing it now I would go a different way, and the choices of genset are much wider too.

What , in a nutshell, would that then be. Or was the difference only at the genset part?

 

[Crossy]

8 minutes ago, Metropolitian said:

What , in a nutshell, would that then be. Or was the difference only at the genset part?

 

Mainly simplification.

 

I shall knock up some drawings when I get the odd microsecond ????

 

 

 

[rwill]

As far as batteries go there are now some in development that will use a solid electrolyte instead of a liquid one.  Called solid-state batteries.  They have a much longer lifespan and don't explode when damaged.  

Here is an article about VW investing in a company that is developing them.

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/23586/volkswagen-invests-100-million-in-solid-state-battery-firm-quantumscape

[Pinot]

I had a one panel system installed at the family's rice farm which had no power, five years ago. This year I replaced the two batteries which had worn out. Papa says he thinks he's going to add another panel since they've come down in price so much. I'm a hero.

[English Engineer]

On 4/19/2020 at 10:31 PM, northsouthdevide said:

I'm also considering going solar on a planned new build. 

Apart from a few solar street lights in my drive, I'm also pretty much a novice. 

I've been mulling over a hybrid system, eather with, or without batteries, tied to the grid via a phase one hook up. 

At the moment, I'm on phase 3, and my energy bills are very expensive, so won't be going down that road. 

Anyway, while reading a story the other day in the bkk post, a pop up add appeared for a solar company in hua Hin. 

They said they will serve anywhere in Thailand for the same price. 

They seem very professional, so I saved it to my home screen, and will be giving them a call in the future.    They are called hua Hin solar solutions and their contact link gives you their Facebook page. 

There's also a tel number 0640528172. 

 

After plenty of ups and downs with workmen in this country, I've decided that when choosing my solar system, I'm not going to do what I've done in the past, and that's compromise. 

Not with electric. 

 

Before installing solar you should look at the house design and minimise where possible energy usage. On average over the year 1kw installed produce 4 units kwh/day. Many companies quote peak but output is reduced in the rainy season. The PEA in general do not allow you to export. Hence if not used when produced at the time, additional energy will go to the grid, with no credit. Lithium ion batteries are the best option but are quite expensive but much longer life. Conversion from a battery store is around 80%. Hence a 10kwh store will only give around 8kwh as ac.  A hybrid system with batteries as the additional advanteage on power outage in removing the voltage surge when power is returned.