Drug championed by Trump for coronavirus shows no benefit, possible harm in study awaiting validation

[xylophone]

10 minutes ago, simple1 said:

You're taking trump's comments entirely out of context. trump's commentary was immediately after...

 

"William N. Bryan, an acting under secretary for science at the Department of Homeland Security, detailed the virus’s possible susceptibility to bleach and alcohol"

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/24/us/politics/trump-inject-disinfectant-bleach-coronavirus.html

 

There is no excuse whatsoever for trump then to start taking to investigating injecting disinfectant and so on.

 

Judging by the responses, I think it once again proves that not only is the dumbo in chief bereft of any intelligence whatsoever, I have to worry about his supporters because they will seemingly support him no matter what he says.

 

I'd love to ask them if they could reproduce the part of history that showed that in "1776 the Americans guarded the airports in the revolution" and quite a few more that have tumbled out of that unconnected orifice!!
 

[Tippaporn]

13 minutes ago, simple1 said:

You're taking trump's comments entirely out of context. trump's commentary was immediately after...

 

"William N. Bryan, an acting under secretary for science at the Department of Homeland Security, detailed the virus’s possible susceptibility to bleach and alcohol"

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/24/us/politics/trump-inject-disinfectant-bleach-coronavirus.html

 

There is no excuse whatsoever for trump then to start taking to investigating injecting disinfectant and so on.

 

Trump is obviously not suggesting that people drink bleach or inject themselves on their own with household disinfectants.  Bleach is and has been used to purify water, for instance.  You're being told that the worst possible distortion of the meaning of his words is in fact the true meaning of his words.  Believe it if it helps further your hatred of Trump.  Don't ask me to go there, though.

[WaveHunter]

11 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

They've figured out that for their audience they don't need to report accurately and to report falsely is O.K. to, as there currently are no repercussions.  They need only write articles that confirm their narrative.  Their audience sucks it up without question.

That really seems to be the case with both CNN and Fox and MSNBC (which IMO is probably the worst).  They have audiences that are so die-hard followers, that just about anything they say is accepted as gospel truth.  Sometimes it's quite entertaining, and even comical to watch how far they will push a narrative.  After all though, they do not really report legitimate news; they simply provide "infotainment".  Those who accept such sources for their understanding of current events are making a huge mistake IMO.

Edited April 27, 2020 by WaveHunter

[Eric Loh]

8 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

What's your point...that there are a lot of very stupid people out there?  Granted, Trump should have deferred the topic to his medical advisors (from which he got these ideas, BTW).  He is a medical layman and makes no secret of that.  Had the Legacy media attempted to clarify his remarks to reflect the actual underlying science he was referring to, then not so many people would have made those phone calls.  The media chose not to do the right thing, and instead took advantage of his poor use of words to further confuse what he was referring to instead of clarifying it.

Glad that you concur that he should leave topics relating to science to his technical team. As you said, there are lots of stupid people out there who listen and worship him. That’s the crux of the matter that he had those people ears and they will believe and self medicate. In one instance, used a wrong form of chloroquine and died. People of science react to correct his non medical recommendation in numbers to manage the fallout from people harming themselves. This has nothing to do with politics or hating Trump. 

[Tippaporn]

2 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

That really seems to be the case with both CNN and Fox and MSNBC (which IMO is probably the worst).  They have audiences that are so die-hard followers, that just about anything they say is accepted as gospel truth.  Sometimes it's quite entertaining, and even comical to watch how far they will push a narrative.  After all though, they do not really report the news; they simply provide "infotainment"

I wish I could consider it mere 'infotainment' but I believe it's intent is much more insidious.

[WaveHunter]

14 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

Glad that you concur that he should leave topics relating to science to his technical team. As you said, there are lots of stupid people out there who listen and worship him. That’s the crux of the matter that he had those people ears and they will believe and self medicate. In one instance, used a wrong form of chloroquine and died. People of science react to correct his non medical recommendation in numbers to manage the fallout from people harming themselves. This has nothing to do with politics or hating Trump. 

The "crux of the matter" is that Legacy media could have done the right thing and clarified the scientific basis of what he was trying to say but obviously expressed very poorly, because the actual underlying science is quite valid.  And most of those commentators knew that!  Instead, they chose to take advantage of his poor choice of words to further confuse the public.  That was done intentionally to promote a biased narrative against him and his administration.

 

You seem to not be taking into account that he got these ideas from his medical advisors.  The ideas are very science-based; the way he expressed them was not.  I think he and his administration have learned their lesson that Trump, as a medical layman, should not be talking about these subjects, and instead, showing his enthusiasm but then deferring to the experts to explain it.

Edited April 27, 2020 by WaveHunter

[Tippaporn]

11 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

Glad that you concur that he should leave topics relating to science to his technical team. As you said, there are lots of stupid people out there who listen and worship him. That’s the crux of the matter that he had those people ears and they will believe and self medicate. In one instance, used a wrong form of chloroquine and died. People of science react to correct his non medical recommendation in numbers to manage the fallout from people harming themselves. This has nothing to do with politics or hating Trump. 

Anyone so stupid as to inject themselves with Lysol or drink bleach I fear will not survive long anyway.  I remember when warning labels on products began to proliferate.  They were an insult to my intelligence.

 

Let's face it, the reality is that it is ultimately impossible to protect people from themselves.  In an ideal world, where most everyone actually made use of their God given brain, any stupid suggestion or advice would be harmless as no one would heed it.

 

Again, because it's vitally important to understand, the truth is that it's impossible to protect people from themselves.

 

Edited April 27, 2020 by Tippaporn

[candide]

41 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

I follow the Dan Bongino rule . . . whenever the MSM reports a 'bombshell' wait a day or two.  More often than not it gets debunked.

An Bongino is the perfect model of politically unbiased reporting, based on properly sourced and reliable facts, etc ..... ????

[WaveHunter]

7 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

I wish I could consider it mere 'infotainment' but I believe it's intent is much more insidious.

I only meant it is packaged and delivered as infotainment to make it palatable to the masses.  Any intelligent thinking person knows what its' real intent is.

 

[Tippaporn]

2 minutes ago, candide said:

An Bongino is the perfect model of politically unbiased reporting, based on properly sourced and reliable facts, etc ..... ????

He is.

[stevenl]

40 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

What's your point...that there are some very stupid people out there that actually believe he was advocating drinking clorox and swallowing lightbulbs?  Well, yes, unfortunately there probably are.

 

Granted, Trump should have deferred the topic to his medical advisors to better express the theories and hypotheses he was referring to (which are actually legitimately science-based and were proposed by his medical advisors, not merely off the top of his head).  He is a medical layman and makes no secret of that.  He chose his words poorly, for sure.

 

However, had the Legacy media acted responsibly and attempted to clarify his remarks to reflect the actual underlying science he was referring to, then not so many people would have made those phone calls.  The media chose instead to take advantage of his poor use of words to further confuse what he was referring to instead of clarifying it.

 

So who is really at fault here; Trump or the Legacy media?

The media should explain his words? I thought you wanted them to report, not opinionate.

[checkered flag]

Getting the FDA off it's duff and act is next to impossible. As far as chloroquine is concern, it's not pleasant but safe in proper doses for most. In my army days were were required to take weekly doses and troops were lined up and watched putting it into their mouths. There was even a urine test to confirm was consumed. I don't recall anyone getting sick but some reported diarrhea. If it works the dosage needs be right plus patients monitored for side effects. When there is nothing else out there. it would be wrong not to try. American FDA is know for being slow and over cautious. 

[Tippaporn]

17 minutes ago, checkered flag said:

Getting the FDA off it's duff and act is next to impossible. As far as chloroquine is concern, it's not pleasant but safe in proper doses for most. In my army days were were required to take weekly doses and troops were lined up and watched putting it into their mouths. There was even a urine test to confirm was consumed. I don't recall anyone getting sick but some reported diarrhea. If it works the dosage needs be right plus patients monitored for side effects. When there is nothing else out there. it would be wrong not to try. American FDA is know for being slow and over cautious. 

But instead we get this:

 

The Detroit News - Democrats plan to censure lawmaker who credited Trump for COVID-19 recovery

 

"State Rep. Karen Whitsett, D-Detroit, broke protocol by meeting with President Donald Trump and Vice President Mike Pence during an April 14 meeting of COVID-19 survivors, during which she credited hydroxychloroquine for saving her life, a Democratic district leader said."

 

The Democrats want to censure and bar any future endorsements of her.  I don't know about anyone else but it doesn't get much more despicable and sick than that.  What are these people thinking??

[stevenl]

29 minutes ago, checkered flag said:

Getting the FDA off it's duff and act is next to impossible. As far as chloroquine is concern, it's not pleasant but safe in proper doses for most. In my army days were were required to take weekly doses and troops were lined up and watched putting it into their mouths. There was even a urine test to confirm was consumed. I don't recall anyone getting sick but some reported diarrhea. If it works the dosage needs be right plus patients monitored for side effects. When there is nothing else out there. it would be wrong not to try. American FDA is know for being slow and over cautious. 

Don't forget you were healthy, people with the virus are not.

[Tippaporn]

6 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Don't forget you were healthy, people with the virus are not.

You must of missed my previous post.  Michigan State Rep. Karen Whitsett was treated with hydroxychloroquine after she came down with COVID and she claims it saved her life.

 

Tell me something, why are you so dead set on discrediting hydroxychloroquine?  Politics is my guess.

[Slip]

3 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

I have never heard of Trump advocating self-medication.  Perhaps you should provide a factual link that supports your comment, as in an actual quote of Trump saying that (and not some biased commentator interpreting his words).  Can you do that?  I'd be real interested to see your proof.

I actually did not say Trump. I said "Trump's White House". An email from Brett Giroir

 

Quote

Really want to flood Ny and NJ with treatment courses. Hospitals have it. Sick out patients don’t. And can’t get. So go through distribution channels as we discussed. If we have 29 million perhaps send a few million ASAP? WH wants follow up in AM.

We can get a lot more of this. Right Bob? Millions per week?

I understand you probably won't like the source, and fair enough I do take on board comments that have been made about media bias, but unless you think they are flat out lying?  I certainly do not believe that to be the case:

 

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/04/internal-documents-reveal-team-trumps-chloroquine-master-plan

 

 

[Saint Nick]

12 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

But instead we get this:

 

The Detroit News - Democrats plan to censure lawmaker who credited Trump for COVID-19 recovery

 

"State Rep. Karen Whitsett, D-Detroit, broke protocol by meeting with President Donald Trump and Vice President Mike Pence during an April 14 meeting of COVID-19 survivors, during which she credited hydroxychloroquine for saving her life, a Democratic district leader said."

 

The Democrats want to censure and bar any future endorsements of her.  I don't know about anyone else but it doesn't get much more despicable and sick than that.  What are these people thinking??

Did you ever hear of "anecdotal evidence"?

First of all, it is by no means clear, that the HC furthered her recovery!

Jesus, you guys are criticizing the Veteran's home for not delivering a representative study, but you wet your panties about ONE PERSON, who may or may not have been recovering because of that particular drug?

And if she is praising TRUMP for her recovery, because he rambled about some stuff, people should just take, because what have they got to lose- that should be enough to discredit her!

Not because it is Trump, but because she is spouting nonsense and unsubstantiated BS!

By that measure ANYTHING she might have taken eaten or drunk that day, may be as responsible for her discovery then HC.

Baked beans, toast, apple sauce, her toothpaste...anything!

 

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

Such comments are a perfect example of "Trump Derangement Syndrome".  Any person with a modicum of intelligence knows that Trump was not saying that people should drink or inject bleach, or shove lightbulbs down their throats.  I mean, c'mon; let's be real here! 

 

The facts are that he was referring to legitimate, science-based theories and hypothesis. 

 

There is indeed a scientific basis for looking into ways to neutralize viral and bacterial infections through various inhalation therapies.  For instance, Propylene glycol and dipropylene glycol were approved over 50 years ago by the FDA and regularly used in hospitals air conditioning systems as bacterial disinfectant.  So, such ideas as looking for ways to fight the infection through similar means are hardly far-fetched.

 

Also, it has been scientifically proven that irradiation of the body through various wavelengths of light can effectively pass through the skin and having positive effects on malfunctioning intra-cellular mechanisms for treatment of certains kinds of cancer.  Perhaps such therapies might have some effect on viral replication.  It would certainly be negligent not to follow up on such research if there some scientific basis for it. 

 

Trump's big mistake is thinking out loud as a medical layman (which is readily admits to being), instead of letting his medical experts deliver these messages.  All of this hysteria over everything he says is just plain ridiculous. 

 

What I find really troubling is what the legacy media does when Trump uses the wrong words to express his thoughts.  Rather than presenting the public with a valid clarification of what he was really saying, they intentionally spin his words to fit their own biased false narrative.  Since Trump's election, this happens countless times.

 

What people should really be concerned with is that such sources who go out of their way to promote and encourage such misunderstandings are not reporting factual news at all, but spinning politically biased narrative.  In stories such as this one about bleach, they are actually insulting the intelligence and common sense of their audience! 

 

I mean, when some dopey commentator like Piers Morgan or Anderson Cooper, or politicians like Joe Biden deliver a messages berating Trump and warning their audience not to drink bleach or lysol, that kind of shows the contempt they have for their audience's intelligence and common sense.  Those members of the public who actually buy into such "talking head" garbage are either incredibly stupid and gullible, or have been simply been brainwashed into being politically deranged.

"What I find really troubling is what the legacy media does when Trump uses the wrong words to express his thoughts.  Rather than presenting the public with a valid clarification of what he was really saying, they intentionally spin his words to fit their own biased false narrative."

 

In other words, the media should interpret Trump's own "wrong words" for him, instead of letting Trump or his staff clarify his words.

 

I disagree.  The media should accurately report what Trump says and, in this case, explain why it is a very bad idea to take his words literally.

[heybruce]

2 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

Nowhere did Trump recommend drinking bleach and Lysol was never mentioned by him by name . . . only by those who chose to spin the meaning of his words and introduced Lysol as it happens to be a disinfectant.  Certainly not the disinfectant Trump had in mind.

 

So why do some people go so far out of their way to distort Trump's meaning and intentions?  As with all things Trump, it's purely politics.  Given we're dealing with a pandemic which should unite people of all stripes I think it disgustingly sick that some people want to use it for political advantage.

Trump's exact words:

 

"And I then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in one minute, and is there a way you can do something like that by injection inside, or almost a cleaning. Because you see it gets in the lungs, and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. So it'd be interesting to check that."    https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-suggests-infecting-disinfectant-video-transcript-2020-4

 

Is usual, he is rambling and unclear.  Past President's have tried not to do that.  However it certainly seems that he is suggesting injecting disinfectant.

[heybruce]

2 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

I've lost count as to how many stupid people there are in the U.S. (and in the world, for that matter).  As W.C. Fields famously quipped, "There's a sucker born every minute."  As unfortunate as it is, the millions do add up quickly.

We know.  They voted for Trump.

[heybruce]

23 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

You must of missed my previous post.  Michigan State Rep. Karen Whitsett was treated with hydroxychloroquine after she came down with COVID and she claims it saved her life.

 

Tell me something, why are you so dead set on discrediting hydroxychloroquine?  Politics is my guess.

Do you think the non-medical opinion of one person has more credibility than the results from this topic's study, that shows the hydorychlorqine group had more than twice the mortality?

 

"An analysis of Veterans Health Administration (VA) data found that 28% of 97 patients given hydroxychloroquine along with standard care died, compared with a death rate of 11% for the 158 patients that did not receive the drug. The death rate was 22% for the 113 patients given hydroxychloroquine plus the antibiotic azithromycin."

 

 

[simple1]

1 hour ago, Tippaporn said:

Trump is obviously not suggesting that people drink bleach or inject themselves on their own with household disinfectants.  Bleach is and has been used to purify water, for instance.  You're being told that the worst possible distortion of the meaning of his words is in fact the true meaning of his words.  Believe it if it helps further your hatred of Trump.  Don't ask me to go there, though.

Don't you think it would be a lot better for trump not to ad lib on the national stage during Covid updates. Some truly dumb people take him literally, as they have done before with his conspiracy theories and other  nonsense, By now the President should know his audience. Thankfully it appears he has acknowledged some of his errors to date by no longer appearing every day for Covid briefings with his usual contribution of some facts wrapped in misinformation and BS.

[Eric Loh]

1 hour ago, Tippaporn said:

Anyone so stupid as to inject themselves with Lysol or drink bleach I fear will not survive long anyway.  I remember when warning labels on products began to proliferate.  They were an insult to my intelligence.

 

Let's face it, the reality is that it is ultimately impossible to protect people from themselves.  In an ideal world, where most everyone actually made use of their God given brain, any stupid suggestion or advice would be harmless as no one would heed it.

 

Again, because it's vitally important to understand, the truth is that it's impossible to protect people from themselves.

 

To prove your point on stupidity as a result of being influenced by irresponsible new media, go no further than the study that suggest Sean Hannity’s rhetoric helped spread the virus. Hannity’s version of truth harm his people. 

[Tippaporn]

1 hour ago, Saint Nick said:

Did you ever hear of "anecdotal evidence"?

First of all, it is by no means clear, that the HC furthered her recovery!

Jesus, you guys are criticizing the Veteran's home for not delivering a representative study, but you wet your panties about ONE PERSON, who may or may not have been recovering because of that particular drug?

And if she is praising TRUMP for her recovery, because he rambled about some stuff, people should just take, because what have they got to lose- that should be enough to discredit her!

Not because it is Trump, but because she is spouting nonsense and unsubstantiated BS!

By that measure ANYTHING she might have taken eaten or drunk that day, may be as responsible for her discovery then HC.

Baked beans, toast, apple sauce, her toothpaste...anything!

 

Please tell me this isn't a serious reply and you're only joking.

[Tippaporn]

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

Trump's exact words:

 

"And I then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in one minute, and is there a way you can do something like that by injection inside, or almost a cleaning. Because you see it gets in the lungs, and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. So it'd be interesting to check that."    https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-suggests-infecting-disinfectant-video-transcript-2020-4

 

Is usual, he is rambling and unclear.  Past President's have tried not to do that.  However it certainly seems that he is suggesting injecting disinfectant.

Not sure you read any of the previous relevant posts on the last 2+ pages but you're taking this discussion back to square one.  I ain't going over it a second time.

[Tippaporn]

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

We know.  They voted for Trump.

What do you want me to do, clap?

[Tippaporn]

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

Do you think the non-medical opinion of one person has more credibility than the results from this topic's study, that shows the hydorychlorqine group had more than twice the mortality?

 

"An analysis of Veterans Health Administration (VA) data found that 28% of 97 patients given hydroxychloroquine along with standard care died, compared with a death rate of 11% for the 158 patients that did not receive the drug. The death rate was 22% for the 113 patients given hydroxychloroquine plus the antibiotic azithromycin."

 

 

Where have you been?  Educate yourself on some of the reviews of that study.  That news is more than a few days old.

[stevenl]

2 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

You must of missed my previous post.  Michigan State Rep. Karen Whitsett was treated with hydroxychloroquine after she came down with COVID and she claims it saved her life.

 

Tell me something, why are you so dead set on discrediting hydroxychloroquine?  Politics is my guess.

You're misrepresenting my posts, and you do that on a continuous basis, even after having been corrected.

[Tippaporn]

1 hour ago, simple1 said:

Don't you think it would be a lot better for trump not to ad lib on the national stage during Covid updates. Some truly dumb people take him literally, as they have done before with his conspiracy theories and other  nonsense, By now the President should know his audience. Thankfully it appears he has acknowledged some of his errors to date by no longer appearing every day for Covid briefings with his usual contribution of some facts wrapped in misinformation and BS.

I have zero issue with him throwing ideas out there.  I'm certain these ideas aren't simply off the top of his head and spur of the moment.  I would think he speaking from sourced information available to him.

 

As to blaming him for what stupid people end up doing to themselves I won't have any of it.  People are ultimately responsible for their own actions.  Stupid is no excuse.

[Tippaporn]

1 hour ago, Eric Loh said:

To prove your point on stupidity as a result of being influenced by irresponsible new media, go no further than the study that suggest Sean Hannity’s rhetoric helped spread the virus. Hannity’s version of truth harm his people. 

Do doubt there are some very strange ideas out there.  I'll take responsibility for what I buy into and I hope you do so for yourself.