Johnson under fire over handling of coronavirus crisis

[Forethat]

7 minutes ago, Logosone said:

 

It is something the UK easily have done as well. Germany had no test kits when the virus struck. German companies started producing them when the genome became known.

 

In the UK too biotech companies that make tests were offering Public Health England their tests, but PHE refused because they were concerned about accuracy, but did not provide accuracy targets to be met. When Matt Hancock tried to buy tests from South Korea PHE said they'd have to test if the test kits worked, but they took so long the deal fell apart.

 

Neil Ferguson was just told by PHE there would not be enough test kits on time, and he took that as gospel rather than engaging with biotech companies to produce tests, something he should have been aware of. This was obviously not Boris' failure, this was a failure of his advisers. They should not just have accepted PHE's word as gospel, but like in Germany and South Korea should have produced test kits on a grand scale.

 

That was the difference.

Completely agree.

 

Another thing Germany have done differently is to use the widespread testing to identify infected patients and then monitor their oxygen levels and take action BEFORE they reach critical levels. This is pretty much what took place when BJ was pulled into hospital (his oxygen saturation began to decline rapidly indicating pneumonia). This is also where I feel the official reporting was <deleted>, they claimed he didn't have pneumonia. He did.

 

And THAT is where the UK have failed (IMHO), we wait until patients are in such poor condition they are hard to save.

 

[CG1 Blue]

7 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

No, I provided you newspaper reports from the UK that report UK Government policy, one of the reports includes statements from the UK Chief Medical Officer.

 

When you accuse people of lying, you need to provide the evidence, not those you accuse.

You didn't provide any evidence that UK government core policy was herd immunity. If you make a claim that's untrue, it's up to you to prove otherwise. 

Herd immunity was never communicated as the core strategy by the UK government. That's my evidence. 

[billd766]

16 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

I'm not interested in where you're from. But it seems you come from a country where newspaper opinions form government policy. 

He probably comes from a country that has a Fox news channel that guides its president on the honest and straight and narrow path.

[Brigand]

Wouldn't have been any better (and probably worse) if Steptoe and the Muppet Show had of been in control. The whole of Europe floundered through hubris and greed.

[Sujo]

5 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

You didn't provide any evidence that UK government core policy was herd immunity. If you make a claim that's untrue, it's up to you to prove otherwise. 

Herd immunity was never communicated as the core strategy by the UK government. That's my evidence. 

So if they did it but didnt say they did it, then they didnt do it.

 

Regardless of what they say, their actions show the truth.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Sujo

[natway09]

Another leader with funny hair & his bunch of merry men who just refused to grasp the enormity of the problem & underestimated the consequences until it was biting them in the posterior.

[CG1 Blue]

4 minutes ago, Sujo said:

So if they did it but didnt say they dit it, then they didnt do it.

Let's put it another way. Just because you say they did it, doesn't mean they did it. 

[CharlieH]

Reported post with questionable content removed.

[Forethat]

49 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Sorry, it doesn’t work like that.

 

You posted the ‘data’, it clearly does not include the UK’s 41% upward correction of the death count and you used this ‘data’ to argue the UK government is ‘doing a good job’.

 

The issue is, the ‘data’ is clearly out of date  and does not support your argument.

The data DOES include the UK reported deaths until April 22.

https://github.com/CSSEGISandData/COVID-19/blob/master/csse_covid_19_data/csse_covid_19_time_series/time_series_covid19_confirmed_global.csv

 

My (John Hopkins University's) data is CLEARLY not out of date.

 

Again, if you have issues with their data, contact THEM.

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by Forethat

[cleopatra2]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

You didn't provide any evidence that UK government core policy was herd immunity. If you make a claim that's untrue, it's up to you to prove otherwise. 

Herd immunity was never communicated as the core strategy by the UK government. That's my evidence. 

On Friday, the UK government’s chief science adviser, Sir Patrick Vallance, said on BBC Radio 4 that one of “the key things we need to do” is to “build up some kind of herd immunity so more people are immune to this disease and we reduce the transmission.”

 

www.vox.com/world/2020/3/15/21180414/coronavirus-uk-herd-immunity-vallance-johnson

[cleopatra2]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

You didn't provide any evidence that UK government core policy was herd immunity. If you make a claim that's untrue, it's up to you to prove otherwise. 

Herd immunity was never communicated as the core strategy by the UK government. That's my evidence. 

“Our aim is to try and reduce the peak, broaden the peak, not suppress it completely; also, because the vast majority of people get a mild illness, to build up some kind of herd immunity so more people are immune to this disease and we reduce the transmission, at the same time we protect those who are most vulnerable to it. Those are the key things we need to do.”

 

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/13/coronavirus-science-chief-defends-uk-measures-criticism-herd-immunity

[elliss]

        NHS, is heading towards bankruptcy , they will be sued for negligence, by relatives of the deceased front line health workers .

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by elliss

[Sujo]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

Let's put it another way. Just because you say they did it, doesn't mean they did it. 

Or they could tell the truth. Our actions speak for itself.

[nauseus]

6 hours ago, Logosone said:

If the UK is doing so great, how come European WHO officials are panicking about the UK's poor performance in stemming new cases?:

 

 

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8227031/Britains-coronavirus-infection-rate-frightening-European-policymakers-Austria-warns.html

Who said that the UK is doing so great??

 

[CG1 Blue]

5 hours ago, cleopatra2 said:

On Friday, the UK government’s chief science adviser, Sir Patrick Vallance, said on BBC Radio 4 that one of “the key things we need to do” is to “build up some kind of herd immunity so more people are immune to this disease and we reduce the transmission.”

 

www.vox.com/world/2020/3/15/21180414/coronavirus-uk-herd-immunity-vallance-johnson

That was one opinion from Vallance, and it did cause some confusion. But 2 days later the government clarified that herd immunity was not the policy:

 

But on Sunday, Matt Hancock, the UK secretary of state for health and social care, stressed that achieving herd immunity to Covid-19 is not a stated policy. 

“What we will do is listen to all the credible scientists and we will look at all the evidence,” he said. “Herd immunity is not our goal or policy, it’s a scientific concept.”

https://www.vox.com/world/2020/3/15/21180414/coronavirus-uk-herd-immunity-vallance-johnson

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

4 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

That was one opinion from Vallance, and it did cause some confusion. But 2 days later the government clarified that herd immunity was not the policy:

 

But on Sunday, Matt Hancock, the UK secretary of state for health and social care, stressed that achieving herd immunity to Covid-19 is not a stated policy. 

“What we will do is listen to all the credible scientists and we will look at all the evidence,” he said. “Herd immunity is not our goal or policy, it’s a scientific concept.”

https://www.vox.com/world/2020/3/15/21180414/coronavirus-uk-herd-immunity-vallance-johnson

 

 

It’s known as ‘Damage Control’ Sir Patrick let the truth out and the Government then set about denying the truth.

 

Meanwhile the Government’s policy actions and inactions demonstrated Sir Patrick was indeed telling the truth.

 

Added to which, the Government only changed its policy when the report by Imperial College London was published and taken up by the media. the Imperial College report criticized the Government’s ‘Herd Immunity Policy’ and outlining the inevitable outcome of allowing the virus to freely spread in the community.

 

Quit gaslighting.

[Logosone]

5 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

That was one opinion from Vallance, and it did cause some confusion. But 2 days later the government clarified that herd immunity was not the policy:

 

But on Sunday, Matt Hancock, the UK secretary of state for health and social care, stressed that achieving herd immunity to Covid-19 is not a stated policy. 

“What we will do is listen to all the credible scientists and we will look at all the evidence,” he said. “Herd immunity is not our goal or policy, it’s a scientific concept.”

https://www.vox.com/world/2020/3/15/21180414/coronavirus-uk-herd-immunity-vallance-johnson

 

 

Oh please, of course Hancock was told to say that. He could hardly say "look we failed put enough icu beds in place, have no ventilators and no test kits, so our best hope is herd immunity which could mean that 200,000 people will die". 

 

These are politicians who want to be re-elected. Lying is their stock in trade.

 

But a look at what they first suggested makes clear that herd immunity was the policy they hoped would deal with the pandemic:

 

But on Thursday, at a press conference, Boris Johnson seemingly revealed that the United Kingdom would adopt a different strategy. The government would no longer try to track and trace the contacts of every suspected case, and it would test only people who are admitted to hospitals. In lieu of any major social-distancing measures, Johnson instead offered a suite of soft advice—people with symptoms should stay home; no school trips abroad; people over 70 should avoid cruises.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/03/coronavirus-pandemic-herd-immunity-uk-boris-johnson/608065/

 

That was clearly a policy aiming for herd immunity. Not containment and not even mitigation. That came later.

[Logosone]

9 hours ago, nauseus said:

Who said that the UK is doing so great??

 

They really are not you know...those Imperial College experts.

[zoza]

 

16 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

No, the UK didn't decide on a policy of herd immunity. I don't know why the anti-Boris brigade keep wheeling out this lie. 

i just stumbled across a video of Boris but there is no link, and i do not think TV will allow me to air it.

they are calling it a smoking gun? Boris talks about a superman type country ? that stands alone and goes into the phone box and comes out a super hero ??? it does not look good for any one involved ? 

if it is admissible i think he could go to Jail, but he was or seemed to be playing out some crazy strategy, but i was shocked at his words and what they seemed to imply...i doubt any advisers came up with this stuff. for his and our sake i hope it is some kind of joke. unbelievable.

( had friend request on Facebook and the video came up a bit further on)

Edited April 24, 2020 by zoza

[frenetic]

14 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

You didn't provide any evidence that UK government core policy was herd immunity. If you make a claim that's untrue, it's up to you to prove otherwise. 

Herd immunity was never communicated as the core strategy by the UK government. That's my evidence. 

"Speaking Radio Four's Today programme on Friday, chief scientific adviser Sir Patrick Vallance said: "Our aim is to try and reduce the peak, broaden the peak, not suppress it completely; also, because the vast majority of people get a mild illness, to build up some kind of herd immunity so more people are immune to this disease and we reduce the transmission."

https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/matt-hancock-insists-herd-immunity-not-part-of-governments-plan-for-tackling-coronavirus

[frenetic]

On 4/22/2020 at 11:10 PM, CG1 Blue said:

He followed the government advisors, SAGE and NERVTAG. That is quite the opposite of picking the ones he liked the sound of. 

As with many Scots, some very good friends of mine, this situation is just being used as a chance to bash Boris. It's not really a surprise you're laying into him right now. 

Remember, the Scottish government went along with the same strategy. All 4 governments of the UK did. 

Interesting that you bring up SAGE.

The Secretive Group Guiding the U.K. on Coronavirus

The British government frequently says it’s “guided by the science,” but the members of its scientific advisory group, SAGE, are a secret.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/23/world/europe/uk-coronavirus-sage-secret.html?action=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage

[Logosone]

18 minutes ago, zoza said:

 

i just stumbled across a video of Boris but there is no link, and i do not think TV will allow me to air it.

they are calling it a smoking gun? Boris talks about a superman type country ? that stands alone and goes into the phone box and comes out a super hero ??? it does not look good for any one involved ? 

if it is admissible i think he could go to Jail, but he was or seemed to be playing out some crazy strategy, but i was shocked at his words and what they seemed to imply...i doubt any advisers came up with this stuff. for his and our sake i hope it is some kind of joke. unbelievable.

( had friend request on Facebook and the video came up a bit further on)

Lol, yes I saw that too, Boris used that superman analogy in free trade, how the UK was superman about to liberate the world, while he was begging the EU to buy his haddock all the while...

 

The man is funny, you gotta give him that.

 

Love that guy.

[zoza]

22 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Lol, yes I saw that too, Boris used that superman analogy in free trade, how the UK was superman about to liberate the world, while he was begging the EU to buy his haddock all the while...

 

The man is funny, you gotta give him that.

 

Love that guy.

He seemed to be saying by him going down the '' herd immunity'' road and the people of the UK Would be paying the price for the ''superman tag'' you know let your Gran die and you loose less money..but not very funny for Gran.

 

do  many other Tories think like that?

Edited April 24, 2020 by zoza

[Logosone]

This is indeed absolutely incontrovertible evidence, and tragic and comical in its content.

 

Boris Johnson set out his heroic vision of a Superman among countries, the UK, that would not lock down "beyond what was medically rational" but would instead continue to exchange goods and do business as usual.

 

Only for this Superman then to go into hiding, and do a total lock down. Superman got cold feet and went into hiding.

 

Not so much Clark Kent as Greta Garbo.

 

Boris wanted so hard for Britain to be a Superman, but he had to face reality and let it be the only thing it could be, Invisible Boy. Hiding in the shadows.

 

Instead it was Sweden that turned out to have the courage to be that Superman, that Champion that would not lock down. How tragic, how comical, when a man's ambitions are so thwarted by the mediocrity of his means.

 

He wanted Britain to be Superman, but nature didn't make her that way.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2020 by Logosone

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Logosone said:

This is indeed absolutely incontrovertible evidence, and tragic and comical in its content.

 

Boris Johnson set out his heroic vision of a Superman among countries, the UK, that would not lock down "beyond what was medically rational" but would instead continue to exchange goods and do business as usual.

 

Only for this Superman then to go into hiding, and do a total lock down. Superman got cold feet and went into hiding.

 

Not so much Clark Kent as Greta Garbo.

 

Boris wanted so hard for Britain to be a Superman, but he had to face reality and let it be the only thing it could be, Invisible Boy. Hiding in the shadows.

 

Instead it was Sweden that turned out to have the courage to be that Superman, that Champion that would not lock down. How tragic, how comical, when a man's ambitions are so thwarted by the mediocrity of his means.

 

He wanted Britain to be Superman, but nature didn't make her that way.

 

 

 

 

Nature didn't make anyone that way. Sweden is now No.10 in the mortality rate table.

[stevenl]

14 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Nature didn't make anyone that way. Sweden is now No.10 in the mortality rate table.

And on the way to herd immunity, should be reached next month. They had the balls BJ lacked.

[nauseus]

1 minute ago, stevenl said:

And on the way to herd immunity, should be reached next month. They had the balls BJ lacked.

Got a link to that there? 

[Chomper Higgot]

52 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Nature didn't make anyone that way. Sweden is now No.10 in the mortality rate table.

There is also something very wrong with Sweden’s reporting of infections.

 

Their reported death rate is way too high for their reported infections.

[nauseus]

19 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

There is also something very wrong with Sweden’s reporting of infections.

 

Their reported death rate is way too high for their reported infections.

I suppose, like everyone else (including the UK), they don't want to admit anything that might be construed as an error.

 

It looks like nearly every government has got this wrong in one way or another and to varying degrees.   

[Baerboxer]

On 4/22/2020 at 7:12 PM, smedly said:

I listened the Adam Boulton on skynews earlier today

 

He interviewed some professor who was the chairman/representative of the "Independent Care home Organisation" or something, what Boulton fails to realise is that most Care Homes in the UK are privately run Independent Businesses and the owners make huge money, they have their own staff - training - standards - procurement - and are privately run, nothing to do with the NHS or the Government - they are private businesses 

 

So if they have (deleted) up with their safety procedures and not maintained standards  it has nothing to do with the Government or the NHS, it is all down to them - they are private companies

 

My late mum went into a 'care home" in the UK in 2006. The owner was an Asian, son of parents who had to leave East Africa; accountant by training. He'd moved to one of the Islands in the Indian Ocean, where he'd set up his business registration - low taxes. Nice guy though, told be this as he showed me around. He said he'd put my mum in a single rather than shared room as this was her preference. At first the staff were all British or Irish; then East European, and finally Africans. Most were actually nice people, the ones I spoke with. 

But as for standards, qualifications, training, salary levels, etc etc - forget it. One person made money - period.

 

The rules and regulations may have changed since then. But local authorities, who have the duty to inspect these places and make sure they're meeting all standards, still get a lot of criticism. To blame the NHS or the Government for the failures of these businesses is just fake news and political hogwash.