Malaria drug touted by Trump for coronavirus fails another test

[DoctorG]

11 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

“Once again though, everything depends on one's point of view.”

 

Well actually no, not everything depends on one’s point of view.

 

Facts and truth matter.

 

You can have your own point of view, but you don’t get to have your own facts and truth.

There are facts and there are facts.

[DoctorG]

8 minutes ago, stevenl said:

No, facts matter, and denying facts means it is a conspiracy site.

There are facts and there are facts.

This is not the thread to start debating climate change theories.

[heybruce]

2 hours ago, Crazy Alex said:

Interesting reply.... I must have missed your post that says the same thing about the article posted that began the discussion. Based on your standard, there is no reason to believe the article. It's not a published study and results, only "speculation". YOUR OWN WORDS. It appears it's not me who can't tell the difference between credible studies and speculation. But here, just to help you out:

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924857920300996

 

https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2020/04/11/professor-didier-raoult-releases-the-results-of-a-new-hydroxychloroquine-treatment-study-on-1061-patients/

First, what started my entry on this topic was an idiotic post that read "and i should trust Scientist commenting with the MSM? ...not".  However this topic started with an article about a study published in The New England Journal of Medicine.  It states this in the second paragraph of the article.  Didn't you read it?

 

From your first source:

 

"A total of 26 patients received hydroxychloroquine and 16 were control patients. Six hydroxychloroquine-treated patients were lost in follow-up during the survey because of early cessation of treatment. Reasons are as follows: three patients were transferred to intensive care unit, including one transferred on day2 post-inclusion who was PCR-positive on day1, one transferred on day3 post-inclusion who was PCR-positive on days1-2 and one transferred on day4 post-inclusion who was PCR-positive on day1 and day3; one patient died on day3 post inclusion and was PCR-negative on day2; one patient decided to leave the hospital on day3 post-inclusion and was PCR-negative on days1-2; finally, one patient stopped the treatment on day3 post-inclusion because of nausea and was PCR-positive on days1-2-3."

 

In other words, 26 not very sick Covid 19 patients began treatment using hydroxychloroquine, four dropped out because they became very sick, one dropped out because he died, and one dropped out because further testing showed he wasn't really infected.  So 25 sick people were treated, and after excluding the five sickest the others looked pretty good. 

 

That is not an encouraging result.  I'm not the only one who had doubts about this study.   https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/fkpyv1/hydroxychloroquine_and_azithromycin_as_a/

 

Your second reference is from an economist and conspiracy theorist ( Regarding the assassination of John F. Kennedy, Roberts has written that "all evidence pointed to a plot by the Joint Chiefs, CIA, and Secret Service whose right-wing leaders had concluded that President Kennedy was too 'soft on communism'".^[29] He has also stated that the Charlie Hebdo shooting has many of the characteristics of a false flag operation" and has described himself as a "9/11 skeptic".^[30][31] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Craig_Roberts  ). 

 

He is referring to a study that seems to be describing the use of hydroxychloroquine early in the onset of the disease.  Most people who contract the disease recover without the help of drugs, and few people who contract the disease in the US receive any treatment, or diagnosis, until the disease is advanced. 

[heybruce]

2 hours ago, DoctorG said:

OAN are Right leaning but the term Far-Right has no real meaning. I might consider the likes of CNN and MSNBC to be far Left because they promote falsehoods and conspiracy theories, so does that mean you cannot use them as a reference on TVF. It is all subjective, depending on your particular political bias is it not?

The White House let's OAN into news conferences because their reported can be counted on to ask soft-ball questions, such as the one equating deaths due to Covid 19 to "deaths" caused by abortion.  It has a host that signs off with the idiotic statement “Even when I’m wrong, I’m right.”, thereby bragging that parroting conservative talking points is more important that being correct.

 

Definitely Trump's kind of news organization.

[heybruce]

59 minutes ago, DoctorG said:

There are facts and there are facts.

Don't you mean there are facts and there are "alternative facts", i.e. fictions?

[Throatwobbler]

6 hours ago, Crazy Alex said:

Why do you think I'm under some obligation to link to published studies and results? BIZARRE.

Thanks for making it perfectly clear that you have no interest in facts.

[The Barmbeker]

3 hours ago, DoctorG said:

There are facts and there are facts.

Nope!

There are facts!

...and that's it!

[AgMech Cowboy]

On 5/8/2020 at 4:44 PM, charmonman said:

He was not “misquoted by the evil mainstream media about the disinfectant”. He said it live on television at the daily task force news briefing. I was watching it live and I was amazed by the stupidity of his comments. I didn’t need to read about it in any kind of media, evil mainstream or otherwise. It was said live on television and it was inarguably the most stupid thing ever said by any President in the modern era.

That is the truth and no amount of spin, denial or excuses can change that.

@charmonman I apologize for not letting this drop, but I just came across some interesting news.

Pulmotect "has successfully tested the drug on some of the world’s most vicious viruses in mice, including strains of SARS and MERS, two other coronaviruses. Researchers said it acts like “Clorox,” killing bacteria, viruses and microorganisms that cause illness." The article I'm quoting can be found on the msn website at 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/houston-researchers-test-lung-inhalant-that-could-protect-healthcare-workers-from-covid-19/ar-BB11Be6X

Maybe President Trump actually knows things we don't.

[AgMech Cowboy]

7 hours ago, heybruce said:

Even when I’m wrong, I’m right

I think you must be confusing OAN with your wife. I've never heard any reporter ever make that statement. Not even Don Lemon, Chris Cuomo, Jim Acosta, etc. although they sure like to belittle and talk like their the last word.

 

(Their might have been a Fox news reporter who said that though...) ????????????????

[billd766]

On 5/8/2020 at 2:43 PM, Siamjim said:

and i should trust Scientist commenting with the MSM? ...not

But you trust a confirmed serial liar with absolutely NO medical training at all, just because he is the POTUS.

 

How bizarre.

[The Barmbeker]

1 hour ago, AgMech Cowboy said:

@charmonman I apologize for not letting this drop, but I just came across some interesting news.

Pulmotect "has successfully tested the drug on some of the world’s most vicious viruses in mice, including strains of SARS and MERS, two other coronaviruses. Researchers said it acts like “Clorox,” killing bacteria, viruses and microorganisms that cause illness." The article I'm quoting can be found on the msn website at 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/houston-researchers-test-lung-inhalant-that-could-protect-healthcare-workers-from-covid-19/ar-BB11Be6X

Maybe President Trump actually knows things we don't.

It acts LIKE Clorox, in that it kills viruses, bacteria and micoorganisms!

Many things act LIKE many other things, yet they are not the same thing!

It can't be that hard to understand!

And no...Trump doesn't know things we don't!

Unless by "we" you mean some 4 year old todlers in Kindergarten!

And even then, I would have my doubts!

[Tie Dye Samurai]

On 5/8/2020 at 4:38 AM, Mick501 said:

Probably too soon to rank him amongst the best ever presidents, but it's not much of a stretch.  History will judge him impartially without the left media anti Trump obsession, and he will shine as bright as any.   Although, I wouldn't want to be in charge of sculpting his hair if they add his likeness to Mt Rushmore.

Yes...Lincoln...Washington...Jefferson...Roosevelt...they all encouraged the masses to clean their lungs with bleach and shine high powered flashlights up their butts....ok, maybe not the flashlights because they had not been invented yet but I am pretty sure Roosevelt was down for a candle up there in a pinch....

[pomchop]

On 5/7/2020 at 4:38 PM, frodo77 said:

Trump is most definitely not a clown and history will show him to be a brilliant President as he continues to drain the swamp. Flynn's exoneration is just the start. He was misquoted by the evil mainstream media about the disinfectant. I wish people would wake up to the truth.

 

“The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”

—George Orwell https://

[torturedsole]

This malaria drug needs to be applied by droplets into the eye of the patient.  Surprised they haven't worked this out.  

[Sujo]

16 hours ago, stevenl said:

No, facts matter, and denying facts means it is a conspiracy site.

OAN makes brietbart look left wing.

[Crazy Alex]

47 minutes ago, Tie Dye Samurai said:

Yes...Lincoln...Washington...Jefferson...Roosevelt...they all encouraged the masses to clean their lungs with bleach and shine high powered flashlights up their butts....ok, maybe not the flashlights because they had not been invented yet but I am pretty sure Roosevelt was down for a candle up there in a pinch....

Who encouraged people to clean their lungs with bleach?

[torturedsole]

11 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

Who encouraged people to clean their lungs with bleach?

It seems to have worked.  I'm C19-free and looking forward to doomsday.  

[Crazy Alex]

16 hours ago, heybruce said:

First, what started my entry on this topic was an idiotic post that read "and i should trust Scientist commenting with the MSM? ...not".  However this topic started with an article about a study published in The New England Journal of Medicine.  It states this in the second paragraph of the article.  Didn't you read it?

 

From your first source:

 

"A total of 26 patients received hydroxychloroquine and 16 were control patients. Six hydroxychloroquine-treated patients were lost in follow-up during the survey because of early cessation of treatment. Reasons are as follows: three patients were transferred to intensive care unit, including one transferred on day2 post-inclusion who was PCR-positive on day1, one transferred on day3 post-inclusion who was PCR-positive on days1-2 and one transferred on day4 post-inclusion who was PCR-positive on day1 and day3; one patient died on day3 post inclusion and was PCR-negative on day2; one patient decided to leave the hospital on day3 post-inclusion and was PCR-negative on days1-2; finally, one patient stopped the treatment on day3 post-inclusion because of nausea and was PCR-positive on days1-2-3."

 

In other words, 26 not very sick Covid 19 patients began treatment using hydroxychloroquine, four dropped out because they became very sick, one dropped out because he died, and one dropped out because further testing showed he wasn't really infected.  So 25 sick people were treated, and after excluding the five sickest the others looked pretty good. 

 

That is not an encouraging result.  I'm not the only one who had doubts about this study.   https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/fkpyv1/hydroxychloroquine_and_azithromycin_as_a/

 

I will stick with the conclusion of the medical professionals who did the study:

 

"Despite its small sample size our survey shows that hydroxychloroquine treatment is significantly associated with viral load reduction/disappearance in COVID-19 patients and its effect is reinforced by azithromycin."

 

Of course, you are free to list your qualifications that show listening to you is the smarter move. And of course, you're linking to REDDIT as a rebuttal in context of you complaining about no published studies is beyond laughable.

 

 

 

 

16 hours ago, heybruce said:

Your second reference is from an economist and conspiracy theorist ( Regarding the assassination of John F. Kennedy, Roberts has written that "all evidence pointed to a plot by the Joint Chiefs, CIA, and Secret Service whose right-wing leaders had concluded that President Kennedy was too 'soft on communism'".^[29] He has also stated that the Charlie Hebdo shooting has many of the characteristics of a false flag operation" and has described himself as a "9/11 skeptic".^[30][31] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Craig_Roberts  ). 

 

He is referring to a study that seems to be describing the use of hydroxychloroquine early in the onset of the disease.  Most people who contract the disease recover without the help of drugs, and few people who contract the disease in the US receive any treatment, or diagnosis, until the disease is advanced. 

 

Once again, you think you are qualified to summarize and distort the findings of professionals with credentials far superior to yours or mine.

[heybruce]

8 hours ago, AgMech Cowboy said:

I think you must be confusing OAN with your wife. I've never heard any reporter ever make that statement. Not even Don Lemon, Chris Cuomo, Jim Acosta, etc. although they sure like to belittle and talk like their the last word.

 

(Their might have been a Fox news reporter who said that though...) ????????????????

Graham Ledger.  Go to 50 seconds into this video:   https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=oan+even+when+i'm+wrong+i'm+right+graham+ledger&docid=608012457983152038&mid=AD6E8D25CC2B5DA90C66AD6E8D25CC2B5DA90C66&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

 

Or check out OAN's webpage on him:  "With Graham, one thing’s certain: even when he’s wrong…he’s RIGHT!"   https://www.oann.com/ledger/

[heybruce]

8 hours ago, AgMech Cowboy said:

@charmonman I apologize for not letting this drop, but I just came across some interesting news.

Pulmotect "has successfully tested the drug on some of the world’s most vicious viruses in mice, including strains of SARS and MERS, two other coronaviruses. Researchers said it acts like “Clorox,” killing bacteria, viruses and microorganisms that cause illness." The article I'm quoting can be found on the msn website at 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/houston-researchers-test-lung-inhalant-that-could-protect-healthcare-workers-from-covid-19/ar-BB11Be6X

Maybe President Trump actually knows things we don't.

The discussion is about the use of hyrdroxychloroquine to treat people infected with Covid 19.  It's not about a wonder drug for curing mice of other viruses.

[heybruce]

7 hours ago, AgMech Cowboy said:

@heybruce Chill man. Your TDS is working in over time. The 2 articles that I know of that love to deride the use of hydroxychloroquine were not studies either. They were just sensational news stories meant to deride President Trump.

(To be honest, I don't know why I'm still even in this thread anymore)

This topic is about an article that describes a study published in The New England Journal of Medicine.  Why not comment on that?

[heybruce]

18 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

I will stick with the conclusion of the medical professionals who did the study:

 

"Despite its small sample size our survey shows that hydroxychloroquine treatment is significantly associated with viral load reduction/disappearance in COVID-19 patients and its effect is reinforced by azithromycin."

 

Of course, you are free to list your qualifications that show listening to you is the smarter move. And of course, you're linking to REDDIT as a rebuttal in context of you complaining about no published studies is beyond laughable.

 

 

 

 

Once again, you think you are qualified to summarize and distort the findings of professionals with credentials far superior to yours or mine.

So you didn't read the study you are relying on.  Either that or you think that a small study that eliminated people from the study when they got sick gives valid results.  And you also reject all studies since then that contradict the only medical study you found that sort of maybe supports Trump's speculation.

 

I think my background in engineering makes me as qualified to comment on medical issues as the economist and conspiracy theorist you referenced.

[candide]

20 hours ago, Crazy Alex said:

Interesting reply.... I must have missed your post that says the same thing about the article posted that began the discussion. Based on your standard, there is no reason to believe the article. It's not a published study and results, only "speculation". YOUR OWN WORDS. It appears it's not me who can't tell the difference between credible studies and speculation. But here, just to help you out:

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924857920300996

 

https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2020/04/11/professor-didier-raoult-releases-the-results-of-a-new-hydroxychloroquine-treatment-study-on-1061-patients/

You should update your information....

"Journal Publisher Concerned over Hydroxychloroquine Study

The report by Didier Raoult and colleagues that examined the use of the anti-malarial drug in a small number of COVID-19 patients receives criticism from the very society that published it."

......

 

"According to a statement issued April 3 by the International Society of Antimicrobial Chemotherapy (ISAC), the vanguard study cited by Trump and others in their endorsement of hydroxychloroquine “does not meet the Society’s expected standard, especially relating to the lack of better explanations of the inclusion criteria and the triage of patients to ensure patient safety.” 

The ISAC publishes the International Journal of Antimicrobial Agents, where Didier Raoult of Aix-Marseille Université and colleagues reported their findings ..."

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/journal-publisher-concerned-over-hydroxychloroquine-study-67405

 

So still not validated.....

Edited May 9, 2020 by candide

[Crazy Alex]

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

So you didn't read the study you are relying on.  Either that or you think that a small study that eliminated people from the study when they got sick gives valid results.  And you also reject all studies since then that contradict the only medical study you found that sort of maybe supports Trump's speculation.

 

I think my background in engineering makes me as qualified to comment on medical issues as the economist and conspiracy theorist you referenced.

Yes, I read the study. In fact, it's obviously I read it more thoroughly than you. More on that in a bit. But first, I haven't rejected any studies. I have seen different studies come to different conclusions. It appears you are projecting. Actually, it's more than projection, given your efforts to reject the two studies I posted. You have yet to post one.

 

Your background in engineering seems to have not helped you with reading. The "conspiracy theorist" you're complaining about didn't even make the post that showed the published results of the study. It's a guest contribution on his web site and the post clearly states as much. Oops!

 

https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2020/04/11/professor-didier-raoult-releases-the-results-of-a-new-hydroxychloroquine-treatment-study-on-1061-patients/

[Chomper Higgot]

37 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

Yes, I read the study. In fact, it's obviously I read it more thoroughly than you. More on that in a bit. But first, I haven't rejected any studies. I have seen different studies come to different conclusions. It appears you are projecting. Actually, it's more than projection, given your efforts to reject the two studies I posted. You have yet to post one.

 

Your background in engineering seems to have not helped you with reading. The "conspiracy theorist" you're complaining about didn't even make the post that showed the published results of the study. It's a guest contribution on his web site and the post clearly states as much. Oops!

 

https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2020/04/11/professor-didier-raoult-releases-the-results-of-a-new-hydroxychloroquine-treatment-study-on-1061-patients/

Trump has given up touting his snake oil hydroxychloroquine, you should consider why and perhaps do likewise.

 

 

[Crazy Alex]

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Trump has given up touting his snake oil hydroxychloroquine, you should consider why and perhaps do likewise.

 

 

I'd like to see more studies.

[metisdead]

Posts of an off topic nature discussing conspiracies have been removed. 

[heybruce]

6 hours ago, Crazy Alex said:

Yes, I read the study. In fact, it's obviously I read it more thoroughly than you. More on that in a bit. But first, I haven't rejected any studies. I have seen different studies come to different conclusions. It appears you are projecting. Actually, it's more than projection, given your efforts to reject the two studies I posted. You have yet to post one.

 

Your background in engineering seems to have not helped you with reading. The "conspiracy theorist" you're complaining about didn't even make the post that showed the published results of the study. It's a guest contribution on his web site and the post clearly states as much. Oops!

 

https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2020/04/11/professor-didier-raoult-releases-the-results-of-a-new-hydroxychloroquine-treatment-study-on-1061-patients/

You've seen one small study with highly questionable subject selection/rejection criteria reach broad conclusions. 

 

You've also referenced a conspiracy theorist who referenced a French study showing treating people early in the disease gives promising results.  However since it makes no mention of a control group to compare results with, it is unclear if the results using hydroxychloroquine were any better than just letting the disease run its course.  Also, since people in the US are advised to avoid medical treatment unless their symptoms are severe the results of an early treatment study are of no use in the US.

 

This topic is about a current study involving 855 of patients receiving hydroxychloroquine and 565 not receiving it.  A study with a large number of participants and a control group for comparison.  It shows no benefit from using the drug to treat Covid 19.

 

 

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, Crazy Alex said:

I'd like to see more studies.

We know.  You keep hoping for a credible study that supports the uninformed speculation Trump was foolish enough to promote.  So far that hasn't happened.

[Chomper Higgot]

3 hours ago, Crazy Alex said:

I'd like to see more studies.

The globally accepted practice is do the studies before making the claims that the drug can be safely used to treat a disease.

 

Trump touted a snake oil cure, you leapt in early and wedded yourself to Trump’s baseless and dangerous claims and now you want to go looking for the studies which should have been in place before a Trump and his followers started touting this drug.