Sweden - is the rest of the world dumb, blind or worse ?

[BritManToo]

Just now, geriatrickid said:

Did you receive the confirmatory tests? The common Thai procedure is one test at time of diagnosis, followed by another test  at 15 days. There was a bad cold going around in Jan/Feb. I had it including sore throat, fatigue, bad fever for a few days and persistent cough. It was not Covid 19.

Don't care, I'm not scared of death.

Edited July 3, 2020 by BritManToo

[geriatrickid]

On 7/1/2020 at 6:59 AM, Sujo said:

There may be other reasons people cannot have a vaccine.

 

I see trump has bought the worlds supply of redesivir for the next 3 months. 500,000 vials at about $3k a vial. So only in the US can you have it, if it works.

 

So if a vaccine is done, be ready for trump to buy the lot.

Don't worry about the  remdesivir,  Gilead long ago gave non exclusive licensing rights to multiple Indian pharmaceutical companies who will be licensed to sell in 127 countries. The cost per dose  will be the equivalent of US$69.00 -  Sixty nine dollars approx. They are the pharma companies already producing much of the generic active ingredients for the western world now. Companies like Jubilant, Cipla, Dr. Reddy's  etc.

The USA  is basically  going to force the  western world to pay the high prices. which it can force through while the poor countries  will get the low cost version. That will change if the EU, Canada, Australia, UK  say F.U. to trump. It's going to be another Trump screw up.

 

[geriatrickid]

20 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Don't care, I'm not scared of death.

Good for you. the point is that you most likely did not have Covid19. No confirmed test, means that you cannot say you had it. You are like these old farts who get a cold and claim they had the flu.  What you had was the  chest and head cold that was going around December- February. Alot of people had it. It was not Covid19.

[geriatrickid]

Oh my. The Swedish PM seems to be concerned now.

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/sweden-opens-inquiry-into-coronavirus-strategy-of-no-lockdown-2020-7?r=US&IR=T

 

- Sweden has launched an inquiry into its no-lockdown policy after thousands of coronavirus deaths in the country.

- Sweden now has the fifth-highest per capita death rate in the world with a larger death toll than all of its neighbours' combined.

- Sweden's daily new cases rose to over 1,000 in the last week, up from fewer than 500 in May.

- Sweden's prime minister said the country must now change its approach.

 

In May they knew the strategy wasn't working,

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-sweden-strategy/swedish-antibody-study-shows-long-road-to-immunity-as-covid-19-toll-mounts-idUSKBN22W2YC

Looks like the herd immunity promised hasn't developed. Maybe if a few more thousand die.............

 

I predict the inquiry is going to identify professional error. A lot of people will be running for cover. The original premise was a legitimate hypothesis. If this was a clinical trial, it would never have been allowed because at its core it was an unethical experiment. If a principal investigator and Clinical research Organization ran an investigation that resulted in this many deaths and  sick people, there would be  massive civil liability  litigation and criminal charges.

 

 

 

[Sujo]

On 6/29/2020 at 8:28 AM, yuyiinthesky said:

I’m very happy to hear that, and I’m sure that all the ones which had been bashing Sweden for their strategy are happy too, as our common goal is minimized deaths!

is that why the PM has launched an investigation into how/why they failed?

[farang51]

37 minutes ago, Sujo said:

is that why the PM has launched an investigation into how/why they failed?

Every country should launch such an investigation to learn what they can do better next time. Of course, Sweden has more reason to learn from its mistakes than most other countries.

 

6 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

Sweden now has the fifth-highest per capita death rate in the world with a larger death toll than all of its neighbours' combined.

If the countries keep on the current track, Sweden will overtake Italy in the end of this month and Spain early next month, thus, only behind the UK and Belgium. Belgium does not really belong at the top spot; they count their deaths different from other countries.

[mommysboy]

7 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

Good for you. the point is that you most likely did not have Covid19. No confirmed test, means that you cannot say you had it. You are like these old farts who get a cold and claim they had the flu.  What you had was the  chest and head cold that was going around December- February. Alot of people had it. It was not Covid19.

Indeed there were a couple of shockers doing the rounds, including one that might lead people to wonder if they'd suffered Covid19 because acute symptoms were so fierce.

[Maestro]

Removed a post with a video from an unacceptable source (YouTube)

[tlock]

This chart looks pretty good.  Daily deaths are way down in Sweden, it looks like they are out of the woods now. 

 

Are any of the countries that were successful containing the virus completely open yet?  Honest question- has South Korea, New Zealand, etc. opened the bars and clubs and successfully gotten back to normal yet?  I saw that Australia just implemented another 6 week lockdown, so I guess they aren't out of the woods yet. 

 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

 

Edited July 7, 2020 by tlock
add link

[PeterRoy]

This is a fantastic article on Sweden's lackluster Covid response, well worth a read when you have 20 minutes:

 

https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-should-we-aim-for-herd-immunity-like-sweden-b1de3348e88b

[thaibeachlovers]

On 6/30/2020 at 1:16 PM, Tagged said:

If you have the choice betwen take the vaccine or leave thailand? You will need a vaccine certificate to renew the visa?

Not relevant to me.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, tlock said:

Are any of the countries that were successful containing the virus completely open yet?  Honest question- has South Korea, New Zealand, etc. opened the bars and clubs and successfully gotten back to normal yet? 

NZ has no community transfer but only because the border is closed to most and any legitimate arrivals must quarantine 14 days. Should the border open fully the second wave will occur as not many have any immunity.

[geriatrickid]

1 hour ago, tlock said:

This chart looks pretty good.  Daily deaths are way down in Sweden, it looks like they are out of the woods now. 

 

Are any of the countries that were successful containing the virus completely open yet?  Honest question- has South Korea, New Zealand, etc. opened the bars and clubs and successfully gotten back to normal yet?  I saw that Australia just implemented another 6 week lockdown, so I guess they aren't out of the woods yet. 

 

 

It is not about deaths, but the cost of the  illness itself and the damage it does.

The biggest impact on the decreased case load  is most likely weather related.

Denmark has been open since mid May. Switzerland, Norway started reopening in May.

Canada started reopening in June.

Not only did these countries have better outcomes than Sweden, their economies are starting to show signs of improvement.

Australia has a  location specific lockdown because many locals there refused to behave responsibly and would not respect some  simple requests. This contrasts to the Swedish people who as a whole did not abandon common sense and behave like jerks. not comparable.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 7/3/2020 at 3:57 PM, geriatrickid said:

Good for you. the point is that you most likely did not have Covid19. No confirmed test, means that you cannot say you had it. You are like these old farts who get a cold and claim they had the flu.  What you had was the  chest and head cold that was going around December- February. Alot of people had it. It was not Covid19.

You managed to not address what he said in your quote and insult him and others to boot.

It may surprise you, but some of us really are not scared of death, and certainly not enough to willingly hide in our room for potentially years just to keep living in a world gone mad.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

It is not about deaths, but the cost of the  illness itself and the damage it does.

The biggest impact on the decreased case load  is most likely weather related.

Denmark has been open since mid May. Switzerland, Norway started reopening in May.

Canada started reopening in June.

Not only did these countries have better outcomes than Sweden, their economies are starting to show signs of improvement.

Australia has a  location specific lockdown because many locals there refused to behave responsibly and would not respect some  simple requests. This contrasts to the Swedish people who as a whole did not abandon common sense and behave like jerks. not comparable.

 

Please explain how, when a vaccine is not available and may not ever be, society can survive in a potentially unlimited lockdown?

As long as herd immunity is not reached, second and subsequent waves are inevitable as soon as restrictions are lifted.

 

I see that you think all people should behave like sheeple. Not something most will accept.

Those that wish to hide in their closet for fear of the Corona are welcome to do so, but some of us don't want to.

[tlock]

38 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

NZ has no community transfer but only because the border is closed to most and any legitimate arrivals must quarantine 14 days. Should the border open fully the second wave will occur as not many have any immunity.

 

Interesting, I believe you are in NZ correct?  Are bars and clubs, etc. open?  Are large gatherings permitted (concerts, etc.)?  Are there any remnants of social distancing, masks, etc?  I'm trying to determine if anywhere in the world is 100% open at this point.

[Bender Rodriguez]

problem is that the government did nothing to protect the WEAK, aka sick old in retirement homes and hospitals

 

anybody has real numbers of the age and comorbid diseases those people had ?

[farang51]

4 hours ago, Bender Rodriguez said:

problem is that the government did nothing to protect the WEAK, aka sick old in retirement homes and hospitals

 

anybody has real numbers of the age and comorbid diseases those people had ?

Most countries failed to protect the weak in retirement homes and hospitals, it was not only in Sweden.

 

Read the article that PeterRoy linked to:

https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-should-we-aim-for-herd-immunity-like-sweden-b1de3348e88b

 

It's a longread but it is worth it.

 

[mommysboy]

9 hours ago, farang51 said:

Most countries failed to protect the weak in retirement homes and hospitals, it was not only in Sweden.

 

Read the article that PeterRoy linked to:

https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-should-we-aim-for-herd-immunity-like-sweden-b1de3348e88b

 

It's a longread but it is worth it.

 

I believe the care home death toll in the UK was staggeringly high and was mainly caused by returning patients to care homes from a hospital setting.  Sadly, health workers also infected many.  It was a total mess.

[Jingthing]

Or was it that it was Sweden that was dumb, blind or worse ?

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/07/business/sweden-economy-coronavirus.html

 

 

Sweden Has Become the World’s Cautionary Tale

Its decision to carry on in the face of the pandemic has yielded a surge of deaths without sparing its economy from damage — a red flag as the United States and Britain move to lift lockdowns.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Jingthing

[A1Str8]

The OP is smart. I like him for seeing through the charade. 

 

May people with their eyes open be blessed!

[geriatrickid]

On 7/7/2020 at 6:59 PM, thaibeachlovers said:

You managed to not address what he said in your quote and insult him and others to boot.

It may surprise you, but some of us really are not scared of death, and certainly not enough to willingly hide in our room for potentially years just to keep living in a world gone mad.

I did. He claimed that he had been infected with Covid19 , but he had no  diagnostic tests to support that claim. On the basis of what he assumed was  nothing serious, he has dismissed the impact of the infection.

It's nice that you are not scared of death, but that has no relevance. I am not scared of death either as I have already been to its doorstep and back, but that does not mean that I wish to die. I have a lot to live for and  am still quite active within the parameters of the Covid19 control measures. Nothing has stopped me from my shopping, going for daily exercise, working  or socializing in a responsible manner with my friends.  The only one who is  bringing up hiding in a room is you. I have not asked you to do that, nor has any public health official. I am not hiding in my room. Everyone I know has adapted to the situation and has carried on.

 

On 7/7/2020 at 7:04 PM, thaibeachlovers said:

Please explain how, when a vaccine is not available and may not ever be, society can survive in a potentially unlimited lockdown?

As long as herd immunity is not reached, second and subsequent waves are inevitable as soon as restrictions are lifted.

 

I see that you think all people should behave like sheeple. Not something most will accept.

Those that wish to hide in their closet for fear of the Corona are welcome to do so, but some of us don't want to.

 

No one has  demanded an unlimited lockdown. You are throwing out the claim in a fit of hysteria and  going off on a tangent make  exaggerated  allegations.  The  intent behind the limited restrictions of activities was to slow the transmission of the infection to allow the economy to keep functioning and for society not to be overwhelmed with the sick and dying. Governments tried to get people to  use common sense, but many people refused to do so. The only reason why some countries had to go into activity restrictions is because of that. look at the mess in the USA now, where some people refuse to  social distance or wear a mask in a public place. 

 

Yes, there may be a second wave, but if common sense measures are used the  impact can be minimized. You see doom and gloom and I see hope. Most people now understand the need to wash hands, to wear a mask and  give distance. there are exceptions and  the countries where there is non compliance will pay a heavy cost.  

 

It is not sheeple to  to behave in a socially responsible manner. We ask sexually active people to practice safe sex to control the spread of STIs and  other infectious disease. We ask people with respiratory illnesses not to go out in public without a face mask and most work places have a standing policy that  sick employees should not come to work and infect others.  The approach to  Covid19 infections going forward is no different.  The limited restrictions in most countries have been lifted. I want to  keep it that way by not being  a facilitator of the spread of the infection.

 

You are  demanding that there be no control measures and attack anyone who disagrees with your position.

Ypu ,make idiotic claims of people being forced "to hide in a closet" when you know that isn't true. Since the start of the pandemic the public health officials   encouraged people to  maintain a healthy life, to exercise but to do so in a responsible manner.  You do not want to be responsible and are only taking your own personal desires and needs into consideration. You argue that it should be a free for all and that peoiple can do as they please without  taking any responsibility for the damage they cause.

 

You want to walk around free as a butterfly, fine. then accept the potential  financial and criminal costs that attach to someone who hurts someone else.

 

11 hours ago, A1Str8 said:

The OP is smart. I like him for seeing through the charade. 

May people with their eyes open be blessed!

Sure. the only charade is the steady stream of false and misleading information put out by the mentally ill, and  certain countries who wish to undermine the stability of much of the world.

[yuyiinthesky]

7 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

Sure. the only charade is the steady stream of false and misleading information put out by the mentally ill, and  certain countries who wish to undermine the stability of much of the world.

Now we‘re getting to the root of your conspiracy theory!

 

Please list these countries, and what they do to „undermine the stability of much of the world“!

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, geriatrickid said:

I did. He claimed that he had been infected with Covid19 , but he had no  diagnostic tests to support that claim. On the basis of what he assumed was  nothing serious, he has dismissed the impact of the infection.

It's nice that you are not scared of death, but that has no relevance. I am not scared of death either as I have already been to its doorstep and back, but that does not mean that I wish to die. I have a lot to live for and  am still quite active within the parameters of the Covid19 control measures. Nothing has stopped me from my shopping, going for daily exercise, working  or socializing in a responsible manner with my friends.  The only one who is  bringing up hiding in a room is you. I have not asked you to do that, nor has any public health official. I am not hiding in my room. Everyone I know has adapted to the situation and has carried on.

 

 

No one has  demanded an unlimited lockdown. You are throwing out the claim in a fit of hysteria and  going off on a tangent make  exaggerated  allegations.  The  intent behind the limited restrictions of activities was to slow the transmission of the infection to allow the economy to keep functioning and for society not to be overwhelmed with the sick and dying. Governments tried to get people to  use common sense, but many people refused to do so. The only reason why some countries had to go into activity restrictions is because of that. look at the mess in the USA now, where some people refuse to  social distance or wear a mask in a public place. 

 

Yes, there may be a second wave, but if common sense measures are used the  impact can be minimized. You see doom and gloom and I see hope. Most people now understand the need to wash hands, to wear a mask and  give distance. there are exceptions and  the countries where there is non compliance will pay a heavy cost.  

 

It is not sheeple to  to behave in a socially responsible manner. We ask sexually active people to practice safe sex to control the spread of STIs and  other infectious disease. We ask people with respiratory illnesses not to go out in public without a face mask and most work places have a standing policy that  sick employees should not come to work and infect others.  The approach to  Covid19 infections going forward is no different.  The limited restrictions in most countries have been lifted. I want to  keep it that way by not being  a facilitator of the spread of the infection.

 

You are  demanding that there be no control measures and attack anyone who disagrees with your position.

Ypu ,make idiotic claims of people being forced "to hide in a closet" when you know that isn't true. Since the start of the pandemic the public health officials   encouraged people to  maintain a healthy life, to exercise but to do so in a responsible manner.  You do not want to be responsible and are only taking your own personal desires and needs into consideration. You argue that it should be a free for all and that peoiple can do as they please without  taking any responsibility for the damage they cause.

 

You want to walk around free as a butterfly, fine. then accept the potential  financial and criminal costs that attach to someone who hurts someone else.

 

Sure. the only charade is the steady stream of false and misleading information put out by the mentally ill, and  certain countries who wish to undermine the stability of much of the world.

I would agree with most of the points in this well written piece, but would point out the flow of misinformation has not been confined to the people you mention.  Health bodies need to learn not to exaggerate, amplify, and in some cases invent falsehoods in order to gain compliance. 

 

Now, I wear a mask, not really out of choice, or out of any real belief that they actually do any good whatsoever except in the rare instance when someone sneezes in your face.  This notwithstanding, if someone says to me "Do you mind wearing a mask when inside? We're hoping they might do some good, and it shows willing...." then in this instance I'd happily comply.  If on the other hand someone constantly, repetitively, and dogmatically orders me to wear a mask, makes claims that simply are unproven, and even accuses me of wrongdoing by not complying... well that's when problems occur.

 

 

[geriatrickid]

12 hours ago, yuyiinthesky said:

Now we‘re getting to the root of your conspiracy theory!

Please list these countries, and what they do to „undermine the stability of much of the world“!

No conspiracy theory. It is an established fact. You can do your own research. Australia, Canada and the EU have all been very clear about this. Many of your comments and claims are "borrowed" from Russian sources.

https://www.dw.com/en/eu-says-china-russia-behind-coronavirus-disinformation-campaigns/a-53762806

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_1006

As per the EU: Foreign actors and certain third countries, in particular Russia and China, have engaged in targeted influence operations and disinformation campaigns in the EU, its neighbourhood, and globally. For example, the EEAS East Stratcom Task Force detected and exposed more than 550 disinformation narratives from pro-Kremlin sources on the EUvsDisinfo website.

 

Do you recall when the (French) Chinese embassy website claimed in mid-April, at the height of Europe’s pandemic, that care workers had abandoned their jobs leaving residents to die. A Chinese diplomat also claimed falsely that 80 French lawmakers had used a racist slur against the head of the World Health Organization, Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus.  This was most likely done to inflame racial tensions within france's large African community.

 

China has targeted both Australia and canada with repeated attacks of misinformation. Russia  innundated facebook and Twitter with false information, such that tens of thousands of their fake identities  are  purged on a regular basis.  We often see the same false stories and claims repeated on TVF.  I think alot of people are catching on to this.

 

[yuyiinthesky]

I agree with you that Russian and currently evener Chinese (CCP -censored) information sources are not trustworthy. Also the Twitter mob, where you never know who is behind them, are a bad source of information.

Nevertheless that's nothing new. We all know the massive influencing of the public opinion in the West through Russia and China. Russia got Trump elected, and now China tries to get Biden elected. Thousands of twitter bots, Cyber attacks, fake Fakebook users, FakeBook ads, paid (50 cent!) troll armies. 

It makes sense to not trust anything on FakeBook, but also press info from journalists, especially when coming from China (CCP censored) or Russia. Unfortunately the Western Press is not much better, bringing manipulated news to help the candidate the owners of them want to promote.

 

4 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

Many of your comments and claims are "borrowed" from Russian sources.

This is a malicious imputation, and you know it. Typical for your style, mixing half truths with personal attacks, and package all in long ramblings.

To protect myself from such misinformation, I try to understand who pays the journalist. CCP controlled Chinese press is one thing, usually easy to identify, Russia's RT another, I simply do not look at it. But there is also for example Jeff Bezos' Washington Post, or CNN, once upon a time my favorite news channel, but now blind on one eye. Then there are massive media payments by Bill Gates, which usually lead to the press at the receiving end to change their tone to be more Bill Gates positive (Germany's once critical magazine "Der Spiegel" being a prime example, receiving 2.5 million $ in 2018, source https://www.gatesfoundation.org/How-We-Work/Quick-Links/Grants-Database/Grants/2018/12/OPP1203082 ), and no critical word about Bill Gates' activities ever since.

Thus I prefer scientific studies as source for information, and you might have noticed that I posted quite a few here on TVF already. None from Russia or China though. 

And then, there are plenty of Western scientists, preferably university professors, which give information, interviews, and explain. They can hardly be Russia or China controlled.

Edited July 9, 2020 by yuyiinthesky

[steelepulse]

Interesting fact.  The total number of people younger than 50 that have died in Sweden from covid is 71.

 

No wonder why they were smart enough to keep their society open.  Their only mistake ( just as in New York) was to let covid into senior facilities.  However unlike New York and other extreme lockdowns, they let their healthy people continue to live their lives.

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107913/number-of-coronavirus-deaths-in-sweden-by-age-groups/

[innosiem]

On 7/8/2020 at 11:29 PM, Jingthing said:

Or was it that it was Sweden that was dumb, blind or worse ?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/07/business/sweden-economy-coronavirus.html

Sweden Has Become the World’s Cautionary Tale

Its decision to carry on in the face of the pandemic has yielded a surge of deaths without sparing its economy from damage — a red flag as the United States and Britain move to lift lockdowns.

completely false and mis-leading propaganda article
the numbers paint a completely different picture

 

 

[innosiem]

On 7/8/2020 at 11:24 PM, mommysboy said:

I believe the care home death toll in the UK was staggeringly high and was mainly caused by returning patients to care homes from a hospital setting.  Sadly, health workers also infected many.  It was a total mess.

according to NHS stats
95% of "covid deaths" in the UK,
the patients had pre-existing underlying conditions......????‍♂️

https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-daily-deaths/

[farang51]

1 hour ago, innosiem said:

the numbers paint a completely different picture

 

 

It is certainly paint a different picture than Norway:

 

 

1 hour ago, innosiem said:

according to NHS stats
95% of "covid deaths" in the UK,
the patients had pre-existing underlying conditions......

Does that make them less dead?