Fermented fish: Don't eat it raw as it is full of dangerous tapeworms

[webfact]

Fermented fish: Don't eat it raw as it is full of dangerous tapeworms

 

Picture: Sanook

 

One of Thailand's favorite food additives - fermented fish or Pla Ra - is in the news again. 

 

A key ingredient of SomTam (papaya salad) and much loved especially by north easterners, Pla Ra has reportedly been found to contain small parasites that can cause serious intestinal and liver complaints.

 

A study by Suranaree University at 73 markets across 29 NE provinces found the parasites. 

 

Markets in Sisaket, Udon, Sakhon Nakhon, Khon Kaen and Mukdahan were mentioned. 

 

People have been warned to cook the fish and never eat it raw. 

 

This is unlikely to hold much sway with north easterners, notes Thaivisa, who add the fish to their som tam and other dishes. They refer to it as "Pla daek" in local dialects. 

 

If is a staple of the region.

 

Sanook reported that another fish - Pla Som - was also suspected of containing a lot of parasites, though not as bad as Pla Ra.

 

Source: Sanook

 

 

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[bluesofa]

17 minutes ago, webfact said:

A study by Suranaree University at 73 markets across 29 NE provinces found the parasites. 

Wouldn't it be good idea if the study disclosed how many samples were found to be contaminated from 73 markets?

 

I'm not trying to belittle the study, but if it's to be taken seriously, some facts to support their statement would be useful.

We don't know if the university haven't released any specific information, or if the reporters just didn't ask.

[OneMoreFarang]

It seems lots of Thais can handle lots of food which lots of westerners can't.

Maybe their immune system is, in general, better than ours. Most Thais are used to that kind of food from childhood onwards.

[EvetsKram]

11 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

It seems lots of Thais can handle lots of food which lots of westerners can't.

Maybe their immune system is, in general, better than ours. Most Thais are used to that kind of food from childhood onwards.

I read an article only last week saying 12% of all cancers in Thailand are from fermented fish. 

[KC 71]

I love my fish,but it’s gotta be fresh.

[OneMoreFarang]

21 minutes ago, EvetsKram said:

I read an article only last week saying 12% of all cancers in Thailand are from fermented fish. 

Is there a clear connection where cancer comes from?

I.e. if someone has lung cancer, are the cigarettes, which a smoker smoked a decade ago, before he stopped smoking, responsible? As far as I know there is no clear connection.

[Moonlover]

37 minutes ago, bluesofa said:

Wouldn't it be good idea if the study disclosed how many samples were found to be contaminated from 73 markets?

 

I'm not trying to belittle the study, but if it's to be taken seriously, some facts to support their statement would be useful.

We don't know if the university haven't released any specific information, or if the reporters just didn't ask.

They really don't need to go into such detail as you suggest. The locals are well aware of this problem and are frequently reminded of the dangers. But, as the article says, 'This is unlikely to hold much sway with north easterners'. One of the standard responses is that 'I drink some Lao Khao with it to kill the worm'

 

Cancer is a frequent cause of death in the rural areas, It is never mentioned that alcohol and liver fluke are two of the main contributing factors. It seems to be accepted that that's the way it is. My-pen-rye.

[Captain_Bob]

If anything should be learned by the Corona pandemic it's to stop eating garbage i.e. raw flesh and rotten  animal-based "sauce". Stick with hot cooked food, canned food, frozen packed food, fresh hygienically washed produce. Not implying what specifically caused Coronavirus, but at least stop ingesting raw rotten garbage and calling it "food". People in modern countries go to charming novelty Thai restaurants and think they are eating "real" Thai food but don't know the truth. What many baan-nok chao-ban folks eat here barely qualifies as "food". Pla-ra is just another extreme example of what some people are willing to put in their mouth. 

[Moonlover]

15 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Is there a clear connection where cancer comes from?

I.e. if someone has lung cancer, are the cigarettes, which a smoker smoked a decade ago, before he stopped smoking, responsible? As far as I know there is no clear connection.

Oh there is, very definitely. Read up on Liver fluke. Nong Han Lake by Sakon Nakhon is a known source of this parasite.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/liver_flukes/index.html

 

Edited May 25, 2020 by Moonlover
Add reference

[thedemon]

11 minutes ago, Captain_Bob said:

If anything should be learned by the Corona pandemic it's to stop eating garbage i.e. raw flesh and rotten  animal-based "sauce". Stick with hot cooked food, canned food, frozen packed food, fresh hygienically washed produce. Not implying what specifically caused Coronavirus, but at least stop ingesting raw rotten garbage and calling it "food". People in modern countries go to charming novelty Thai restaurants and think they are eating "real" Thai food but don't know the truth. What many baan-nok chao-ban folks eat here barely qualifies as "food". Pla-ra is just another extreme example of what some people are willing to put in their mouth. 

 

Depends on perspective. Your description could apply to cheese.

[bluesofa]

12 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

They really don't need to go into such detail as you suggest. The locals are well aware of this problem and are frequently reminded of the dangers. But, as the article says, 'This is unlikely to hold much sway with north easterners'. {snipped}

I don't see why not.

They were keen to tell us there were 73 markets in 29 provinces, but not how many were contaminated.

 

Having said that, I've just looked at the Sanook page and realised (via google translate) the Thai article does give details.

It's TV that haven't added any of those:

 

"9.58% of flukes and foliage were found (7/73)
Most of them are found in pickled fish and are specimens collected from Si Sa Ket, Sakon Nakhon, Khon Kaen, Mukdahan and Udon Thani."

 

It goes into a lot more detail than that too.

 

 

[BritManToo]

50 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

It seems lots of Thais can handle lots of food which lots of westerners can't.

Maybe their immune system is, in general, better than ours. Most Thais are used to that kind of food from childhood onwards.

Liver flukes (also in Pla Ra) grow in the liver then progress to cysts, and finally liver failure.

My MiL had to have all the lumps cut out of her liver a few years back.

Immune system not better, just die younger.

[b2bme]

2 hours ago, bluesofa said:

Wouldn't it be good idea if the study disclosed how many samples were found to be contaminated from 73 markets?

 

I'm not trying to belittle the study, but if it's to be taken seriously, some facts to support their statement would be useful.

We don't know if the university haven't released any specific information, or if the reporters just didn't ask.

Hi bluesofa. I lived in Mukdahan for 13 years which is one of the cities mentioned. During that time I became aware that many deaths were related to liver cancer in the region. My interest stemmed from multiple members of my previous wife family and neighboring families in the community. Unfortunately my wife became victim as well. I tried to change their habits but no different to trying to change a smoker or heavy drinkers habits. There was a study I came across perhaps nearly 20 years ago now. It was quite comprehensive and I might have a copy of it on an old hard drive but a Google search might find it or a similar one. I remember some graphs that were geographic across the globe, and then Thailand, and then narrowed down to north east Thailand. North East Thailand was off the scale in comparison. I think it has been a long recognized but ignored problem. I recall specific fish being more of a problem.

In recent years I've found myself in Buriram and have not really heard much about this problem. Wonder if that supports the fish species theory. Maybe using different fish.

Anyway now I'm in Australia but still can't escape that smell.

[Docno]

58 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Liver flukes (also in Pla Ra) grow in the liver then progress to cysts, and finally liver failure.

My MiL had to have all the lumps cut out of her liver a few years back.

Immune system not better, just die younger.

Schoolmate of my ex died of that about three years back. Would have been about 33 years old. Liver ducts get blocked. I didn't see him myself, but my then gf said he turned very yellow and lost a great deal of weight. Minimal medical intervention and he died at home. Apparently a great lover of pla ra/la … pretty sure that's what did him in.

[Bob A Kneale]

1 hour ago, thedemon said:

1 hour ago, Captain_Bob said:

If anything should be learned by the Corona pandemic it's to stop eating garbage i.e. raw flesh and rotten  animal-based "sauce". Stick with hot cooked food, canned food, frozen packed food, fresh hygienically washed produce. Not implying what specifically caused Coronavirus, but at least stop ingesting raw rotten garbage and calling it "food". People in modern countries go to charming novelty Thai restaurants and think they are eating "real" Thai food but don't know the truth. What many baan-nok chao-ban folks eat here barely qualifies as "food". Pla-ra is just another extreme example of what some people are willing to put in their mouth. 

 

Depends on perspective. Your description could apply to cheese.

How?

[nightbird]

2 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

It seems lots of Thais can handle lots of food which lots of westerners can't.

Maybe their immune system is, in general, better than ours. Most Thais are used to that kind of food from childhood onwards.

Plenty of Thais with Gastric problems. Every major hospital has a division dedicated to this. India is the same way. So many people suffer from poor food habits and go through life with them until they become disabled by them. 

[Guderian]

This is news? I read an article about this at least ten years ago, it's the main reason so many folk in Isaan die of liver disease.

[lee b]

Looks like I am going to be ok then, everything I put it into is cooked. Well apart from somtam, but I really dont each much of that anymore.

[bluesofa]

2 minutes ago, Guderian said:

This is news? I read an article about this at least ten years ago, it's the main reason so many folk in Isaan die of liver disease.

Yes, I agree. It does crop up from time to time.

Wasn't the last time nearly a year ago when a Thai doctor was telling people of exactly the same thing regarding bla-ra and liver cancer?

 

I just asked my wife about it (again).

The last time she told me that she only eats the cooked stuff. She remembered when I told her what the doctor said the last time it was publicised.

 

I asked her how she knows if the bla-ra is cooked or not? Her reply was that every who sells somtam only uses cooked bla-ra.

How does she know they're telling the truth I asked?

The reply was that the somtam sellers all buy it from the same distributor. Plus, the taste of cooked and raw bla-ra is different to somtam addicts.

A woman up the road uses uncooked bla-ra and my wife won't buy from her because of that.

 

[geisha]

This is not new news. It’s been known for many years . I remember reading a report years back and have never eaten somtam since.

[DrTuner]

3 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

It seems lots of Thais can handle lots of food which lots of westerners can't.

Maybe their immune system is, in general, better than ours. Most Thais are used to that kind of food from childhood onwards.

Tell that to my MIL. She had the flukes and had to do a round of medicine. Luckily caught before any real damage. 

[Bender Rodriguez]

this is what thai people should be scared about and not corona virus

[Catoni]

3 hours ago, Captain_Bob said:

If anything should be learned by the Corona pandemic it's to stop eating garbage i.e. raw flesh and rotten  animal-based "sauce". Stick with hot cooked food, canned food, frozen packed food, fresh hygienically washed produce. Not implying what specifically caused Coronavirus, but at least stop ingesting raw rotten garbage and calling it "food". People in modern countries go to charming novelty Thai restaurants and think they are eating "real" Thai food but don't know the truth. What many baan-nok chao-ban folks eat here barely qualifies as "food". Pla-ra is just another extreme example of what some people are willing to put in their mouth. 

The Wuhan CCP Corona virus did not come from eating garbage, raw flesh and/or rotten animal based sauce. 

   Eating those things is not healthy, but that’s not where the Wuhan CCP Corona virus came from. 

[liddelljohn]

my lady must be riddled with giant worms    she eats like an elephant   and drinks Chang like a Whale   but she never gets more than 40kg      I have always said she is feeding a   a giant worm

 

[Velisbef]

What about the catfish? Is it safe to eat?

[mfd101]

The basic rule in Thailand is: Never eat any freshwater fish uncooked.

[tandor]

...they always were!...what's the matter with you people and the things you stuff into your mouths..no better than bat-munching wuhanites.

Edited May 25, 2020 by tandor

[kevden]

3 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Is there a clear connection where cancer comes from?

I.e. if someone has lung cancer, are the cigarettes, which a smoker smoked a decade ago, before he stopped smoking, responsible? As far as I know there is no clear connection.

Here are a couple of resources that might interest. 

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-33095945?SThisFB&fb_ref=Default

 

 

[john34]

Ohh no, do they eggs get in the fermented fish sauce too? Last time I ever splash that on my food. 

[Kerryd]

Years ago they figured out that many Thais were getting Liver cancer from eating fish infected with Flukes. (Mainly in Isaan if I recall correctly.)

Man eats fish. Flukes invade liver and lay eggs. Eggs are expelled from the body (pooped out).
Infected poop gets into ponds and canals (either pooped into them directly or when the open septic tanks flood every time it rains and all that sewage ends up in assorted ponds and canals).
The eggs hatch in the water. Fish eat the flukes. People eat the fish (and around and around it goes).

Tapeworms are "same same but different" as tapeworms generally infest the gastrointestinal system (stomach and intestines) while flukes are in the liver. However, according to the Mayo Clinic (a very large and well known medical organization established in 1864):

"Tapeworm infection is caused by ingesting food or water contaminated with tapeworm eggs or larvae. If you ingest certain tapeworm eggs, they can migrate outside your intestines and form larval cysts in body tissues and organs (invasive infection). If you ingest tapeworm larvae, however, they develop into adult tapeworms in your intestines (intestinal infection)."
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/tapeworm/symptoms-causes/syc-20378174

Neither gives a <deleted> (literally) about the immune system because they are parasites, not viruses. 

I never was a fan of fish even back home in Canada when we used to catch and cook them fresh from the lake. We had leeches in the lakes and I found out that was one of the things the fish lived on (and visa-versa as it turned out). Turned me off fish for life.

Over here I heard about the liver flukes. I stay away from pretty much all fish here too (freshwater or otherwise), including fish sauces. In Som Tam, I have the local guy use dried shrimp instead of the little crabs. No fish at all. 
I'll eat shrimp though (love them) but they are generally raised in tanks, not open ponds. Less chance of being infested with flukes (not sure if flukes even infest crustaceans).

Got to think though, with the number of poor people who drink "white spirits" and "lao khao", they probably have a lot of liver problems to begin with.