As bedlam is boring as ###### these days I have an idea how to make things more interesting for those longer term members and Kayo. How about letting everybody with over 2000 posts have access to the Mods forum. That's obviously where all the fun discussions are going on.

NO NO NO NO NO!!!! NOT THE MOD'S FORUM....ANYTHING BUT THAT!!! I'LL BE GOOD...I PROMISE!!! I'll even stop shouting and talk nicely like a good boy...but pppplllllleeeeeasssseee don't send me to the mod's forum....(whimpering, grovelling, waiing over the head etc.)

now we're getting somewhere

Good one lamphun!

now we're getting somewhere

Good one lamphun!

Thanks but of course nothing will come of this request. It seems political discusions and hard core porn are only for the chosen few.

And before this subject stirs up too much sh1t AND as it has been discussed ad nauseam just a month ago, I would like to put forward the motion to close this thread and keep all others open...

...now let's get back to what we can do best around here....

Interesting signature you have, Raro.

Didn't see that one before....

LaoPo

Thanks for the flowers! Got that signature for more than a year, when I started shaping my "TV personality", which is pretty close to my real live personality...there was some PC discussion going on in TV at that time and as only mentioning PC gives me goose pimples I remembered that Geldof song...et voila!

"K.O & raro"

If not for you,

Boys, I couldn't find the door,

Couldn't even see the floor,

I'd be sad and blue,

If not for you.

If not for you,

Boys, I'd lay awake all night,

Wait for the mornin' light

To shine in through,

But it would not be new,

If not for you.

If not for you

My sky would fall,

Rain would gather too.

Without your love I'd be nowhere at all,

I'd be lost if not for you,

And you know it's true.

If not for you

My sky would fall,

Rain would gather too.

Without your love I'd be nowhere at all,

Oh! What would I do

If not for you.

If not for you,

Winter would have no spring,

Couldn't hear the robin sing,

I just wouldn't have a clue,

Anyway it wouldn't ring true,

If not for you.

Kan Win Baby, please post a pic of your blissful river setting to calm these malcontents. Their whingeing commentary is akin to a baby howling with colic.

Reading (and now listening) to that song in the context of the K.O and Raro tag, makes me think that what Win is saying, is that we are good at getting him drunk?

How's H & john, K.W?

Looking at this logically there are many examples of non Thai related discussions on TV already. Take a look at the football forum - this is apparently going to come as a surprise but Norwich is not a city in Thailand. Nor is a discussion about the differences between a Toyota Vigo (Assembled & made in Thailand) versus Isuzy Dmax (Assembled & made in Thailand) anything to do with Thailand. ((Yes they are and Assembled & made in Thailand)) Do the forums for linux pass as a Thai specific forum? In a semi closed arena such as Bedlam why can't the discussion be along similar lines as a conversation amongst friends sitting around a table. At such a meeting of friends there are basic rules such as respect for the other person's opinion, agreement do disagree, standards of language, and vulgarity.

You make the valid point that both vehicles are made and assembled in Thailand so the discussion of their manufacture would be allowed as would the driving of them. However comparing them or referring to their use in the UK or USA would not becuase it is not relevant to Thailand. To shift slightly the discussion of motor vehicles, Jeremy Clarkson bagging a Malaysian car would not allowed under the rules of Thai relevance - but it is an ongoing topic of discussion.

but as a rational adult I think it is insulting to say I can't be allowed to say "what a tragedy is the murder of 33 people"

I think that to a greater extent within the Bedlam group there are sufficient "elders" who can pull the others into line.

Are you so sure?

Yes I am sure - there are any number of posters in this forum including yourself that can and have done this in the past. Are you of the opinion that November Rain, Jet Gordon, Seugha etc are incapable of standing up for themself?

If I put up something nasty or inappropriate about Seugha for example. I am sure that he would be able to defend himself and have the support of at least 20 dozen others. As it is I have a lot of respect for Seugha and his opinions, I don't have to agree with everything he says but I shouldn't have to be afraid of being zapped by a moderator in case I write a message that disagrees with him.

"20 dozen others" - is my point. It is the same as in an open fact to face discussion, if someone goes of into personal attack the rest of the group will quickly pull it back into line. We all get wound up about some things and occasionally need to be reminded to "sit down and breathe" - it is what friends do.

We are adults in this forum - please respect us and allow us to have discussions like adults

CB

And when will that be.............Pray tell me.............. CB

Every day - there are many interesting and informative discussions taking place all around us on this board.

I have been in this madhouse named "Bedloom" for more a few years, and have enjoyed looking at indifferent posts.

With politics and udder ones, never got me goat, (=annoyed) so, as I only looked at the first “Fred” and then went on my way.

Yours truly,

Kan Win

And this is your choice - you and anyone else can be involved or remain indifferent. You can take part or choose to ignore. You can read and reply with those subjects that interest you. That is the value of boards such as Thai Visa, it is a meeting hall for people with shared interests.

My estimation is that if TV truly restricted itself to topics relevant to Thailand - appoximately 60% of the current forums would be closed.

ALL the football forums would close except for Everton which is sponsered by Chang but because Chang is a Singapore listed company and advertising alcohol it should be banned under the new government regulations of reducing alcohol consumption.

Liverpool and Manchester could have a single forum to discus friendly matches they have in Thailand but cannot have any posts about games in Europe.

the NFL, AFL, NRL football code forums would cease

NBA, NHL forums would cease

Any discussion about motorcycles not legally sold in this country with the relevant papers and plates would have to stop

Discussion and comment of any overseas news not directly relevant to Thailand would be banned. Bear in mind many of these are posted by George who is directly contravening his own TV rules.

MiG16's chocolate forum would be shut down

The good bum forum would fold unless the girls were Thai

We do not and cannot live in a bubble isolated from the rest of the world.

Everyone in Bedlam knows the basic rules of what topics CANNOT be discussed by LAW so they should really be the only ones that need direct moderation. Any other forum is subject to the whim of the membes., If it is interesting to the people posting and does not cross into illegal territory then it should be allowed to continue. If it is not of interest it will naturally die of boredome due to lack of use.

CB

As bedlam is boring as ###### these days I have an idea how to make things more interesting for those longer term members and Kayo. How about letting everybody with over 2000 posts have access to the Mods forum. That's obviously where all the fun discussions are going on.

Intersting idea, lamphun. However, if you look around you, you'll see that most of the members who are contributing to those "boring as ######" threads actually do have over 2,000 posts or are bluddy near it. So the only people you'd be keeping out are newbies like CB and myself. And we'll get to 2,000 sooner or later, as well ( in CBs case, sooner!) So, then what happens? Another forum for 3,000 posts or more?

As bedlam is boring as ###### these days I have an idea how to make things more interesting for those longer term members and Kayo. How about letting everybody with over 2000 posts have access to the Mods forum. That's obviously where all the fun discussions are going on.

Intersting idea, lamphun. However, if you look around you, you'll see that most of the members who are contributing to those "boring as ######" threads actually do have over 2,000 posts or are bluddy near it. So the only people you'd be keeping out are newbies like CB and myself. And we'll get to 2,000 sooner or later, as well ( in CBs case, sooner!) So, then what happens? Another forum for 3,000 posts or more?

It might be educational to yourself and a few others if the admin was able to do a restore to a point say two years ago or more. The character of the Thai Visa was lively with a lot of friendly banter.

I hear what you say LaoPo, but what if we allowed any and all non-Thai related topics to be discussed here?

You gave the example of a US-based tragedy, which would be understandably close to the hearts of American ThaiVisa members.

But what about our members from other parts of the globe... say our Malaysian Muslim members, or our Indian Hindu members... other races and creeds and religions... ? What about topics that may be equally or more important to their personal agendas?

Do you really think that such a diverse forum could be self-managing? (ie. no moderator intervention?)

Speaking only for myself (and not the other moderators or admin), the only thing that keeps ThaiVisa subforums (including Bedlam) connectivity going is the fact that its all Thailand-relanted.

I like that... and I like the idea of disallowing non-Thai related topics. It keeps the playing field even... without fear of attack from some majority/minority who may have differing opinions and only want to stir up trouble.

Thanks for offering your public opinion Laopo... I respect that and wish to reflect that respect by offering my own public (but personal) response here. I have received some PM's, and I respect those people too... we all have (and are entitled to) our own thoughts and opinions.

Nice photo BTW cdnvic!

Got to have a dig here I'm afraid.

Point out one "Thai-related" thread in Bedlam that needs to be protected with some 500-post count per user. I can only see one Thai-specific post on the first page of posts of Bedlam, and that could well be in the 'Pub. On that note, apart from the threads showing a bit of skin, the rest could well be in the 'Pub also.

A well known fact about the ThaiVisa.com forum on all other Thai-related sites is the high levels of self-censorship; mention one slightly taboo subject and moderators start throwing their toys out the pram. Fair enough, people have to protect their own interests, but the strict off-limits epidemic has now spread as far as here, leaving foreigners who live in Thailand (like myself) no place to discuss many issues with other foreigners who live in Thailand (like many other people on here).

Even writing this I'm probably irking mods by discussing moderator issues - yet another strict no-no. I'll try and recover the post by writing a sentence or two with no meaning or relevance to anyone or anything, only to waste the time of people reading it.

There. It now belongs in Bedlam.

As bedlam is boring as ###### these days I have an idea how to make things more interesting for those longer term members and Kayo. How about letting everybody with over 2000 posts have access to the Mods forum. That's obviously where all the fun discussions are going on.

Intersting idea, lamphun. However, if you look around you, you'll see that most of the members who are contributing to those "boring as ######" threads actually do have over 2,000 posts or are bluddy near it. So the only people you'd be keeping out are newbies like CB and myself. And we'll get to 2,000 sooner or later, as well ( in CBs case, sooner!) So, then what happens? Another forum for 3,000 posts or more?

It might be educational to yourself and a few others if the admin was able to do a restore to a point say two years ago or more. The character of the Thai Visa was lively with a lot of friendly banter.

Ok this is excellent and a great idea. It should now be back into your (collective your) court of the people here then to restore the days when TV was "lively iwth a lot of friendly banter" You guys are all smart and have different world views, you have opinions and the means to express them. THAT is the reason why I like TV and more specifically Bedlam. I want to exchange ideas and thougths witht you people so that in the process I learn and continue to grow as a person. I have learned many things and had many interesting conversations with people on this board.

The bottom line is this - if we (colllective we) want to do something to raise the standard or to take the "character of the Thai Visa that was lively" then we (collective we) must do something about it.

CB

A well known fact about the ThaiVisa.com forum on all other Thai-related sites is the high levels of self-censorship; mention one slightly taboo subject and moderators start throwing their toys out the pram. Fair enough, people have to protect their own interests, but the strict off-limits epidemic has now spread as far as here, leaving foreigners who live in Thailand (like myself) no place to discuss many issues with other foreigners who live in Thailand (like many other people on here).

Not the case Insight. I post on another Thai site where everything can be discussed.

The bottom line is this - if we (colllective we) want to do something to raise the standard or to take the "character of the Thai Visa that was lively" then we (collective we) must do something about it.

Been there, tried that. The owners of this site are quite happy to have it ticking over discussing the number of days on a visa stamp.

Reckon you misread slightly there Lamphun - I mean other websites acknowledge the high levels of censorship on Thaivisa. I don't mean that they adhere to similar levels themselves.

You're correct, I missread your post.

Even writing this I'm probably irking mods by discussing moderator issues - yet another strict no-no. I'll try and recover the post by writing a sentence or two with no meaning or relevance to anyone or anything, only to waste the time of people reading it.

Would you prefer it if we just closed Bedlam entirely? Or perhaps excluded the members who appear to dislike this area of the forum?

Both are possible... be careful what you wish for

So this has proved some very interesting reading, me thinks. A lot of eloquent opinions and the like.

I'd like to ask (as O.P) that we tread carefully here, with regards to any discussion of moderator actions.

My question, to take this thread onwards, is what do you think We, as a collective, do to bring Bedlam back, so to speak, without treading on the toes of the Rules, but nonetheless bring it back to a level, as Lamphun stated (i agree) of yesteryear?

Are there things we could, for example, cut down on doing?

Are there things we could do more of?

Personally, I suspect one issue, is there is a lot of clutter in terms of absolutely pointless threads. I am guilty of contributing to many of them. Also of starting many.

Two years ago, there was perhaps a gap in the market for it. That gap has become somewhat saturated perhaps? (jealous klown protects his territory )

To use the Pub analogy again, there's often a joker(s) in the crowd that makes everyone smile. Yet there are also moments for more serious discussion, where the joker(s) doesn't speak out in jest.

This thread has shown that is still possible.

So, what can we do to find a line where moderation essentially trusts us to "play like grown-ups" again?

Let me ask you one question Insight.

Lets say the Thai authorities decided to block the Thai Visa forum from Thai viewers because of posts they deemed illegal. Would you be the first one whinging because the moderators didn't protect you from people who didn't know better than to post illegal (to the Thai govt) stuff? We all know they are shutting down forums for this kind of thing. All you have to do is read the paper. Or try to access a site the govt has deemed to block. Ask yourself how you'd feel if it did get blocked? And then critisize moderators for trying to prevent this kind of thing from happening.

As for the rest of it, my god, you people really take the cake. I've stayed out of Bedlam for the most part because the political discussions were far too personal and nasty and the rest of it is either inane or stupid. Numerous Bedlam posters complained about every thread being political and it pushing out the rest of the posters. Now you complain because you can't have political!!!

You wanted a moderator rant? Well, you got one. GROW UP!!!

And yes, this is PMS talking so you'd better be nice or I'll rip your head off

<SNIP>

Personally, I suspect one issue, is there is a lot of clutter in terms of absolutely pointless threads. I am guilty of contributing to many of them. Also of starting many.

<SNIP>

So, what can we do to find a line where moderation essentially trusts us to "play like grown-ups" again?

Your first point, Kayo, is exactly what I was trying to say to lamphun. Many of these "fluff" threads are started and contributed to by those members with 2,000 posts or more. Despite what was implied, if you check, I don't post in those much, because I do find them pointless fluff &, because of personal circumstances, I'm not really in the mood for frivolity for frivolity's sake at the moment. If everyone else wants to do it, that's fine, just not my cuppa at this time.

I would like to see more serious threads, not necessarily Thailand based. I live here, but I do have an interest & a view on what goes on elsewhere. LaoPo mentioned the Virginia Tech shootings - that is exactly the sort of thread I would be interested in. But, are we allowed? Isn't that what this thread was started for? To find out what we're allowed to do? As far as I can see the only way to be trusted to "play like grown ups" is to be given a little rope with which to prove ourselves or hang ourselves (metaphorically speaking)

So, moderating team, are we allowed to discuss serious issues like the Virginia Tech shootings in Bedlam?

Let me ask you one question Insight.

Lets say the Thai authorities decided to block the Thai Visa forum from Thai viewers because of posts they deemed illegal. Would you be the first one whinging because the moderators didn't protect you from people who didn't know better than to post illegal (to the Thai govt) stuff? We all know they are shutting down forums for this kind of thing. All you have to do is read the paper. Or try to access a site the govt has deemed to block. Ask yourself how you'd feel if it did get blocked? And then critisize moderators for trying to prevent this kind of thing from happening.

One point about that, though, is that if illegal or controversial matters were discussed in here, no Thai authorities would know anything about it because it is in Bedlam and they'd need 500 posts to see it (can you honestly imagine a member of the Thai government posting 500 times in Thai Visa?). Also, it wouldn't be picked up on Google at all for the same reason. So perhaps this could be a place where things could be a bit more relxed on that front.

Also, I agree with Kayo's statements about too much rubbish in this area of the forum. Worst of all is when an entertaining and/or useful thread gets hijacked by the nonsense.

So, moderating team, are we allowed to discuss serious issues like the Virginia Tech shootings in Bedlam?

Moderator huddle convening... admin sanction required.

We'll get back to you on that one.

Let me ask you one question Insight.

Lets say the Thai authorities decided to block the Thai Visa forum from Thai viewers because of posts they deemed illegal. Would you be the first one whinging because the moderators didn't protect you from people who didn't know better than to post illegal (to the Thai govt) stuff? We all know they are shutting down forums for this kind of thing. All you have to do is read the paper. Or try to access a site the govt has deemed to block. Ask yourself how you'd feel if it did get blocked? And then critisize moderators for trying to prevent this kind of thing from happening.

One point about that, though, is that if illegal or controversial matters were discussed in here, no Thai authorities would know anything about it because it is in Bedlam and they'd need 500 posts to see it (can you honestly imagine a member of the Thai government posting 500 times in Thai Visa?). Also, it wouldn't be picked up on Google at all for the same reason. So perhaps this could be a place where things could be a bit more relxed on that front.

Also, I agree with Kayo's statements about too much rubbish in this area of the forum. Worst of all is when an entertaining and/or useful thread gets hijacked by the nonsense.

Maybe, maybe not. You willing to take the risk?

As for the second part. You don't like the rubbish, others obviously do. Some like the politics, others hate the politics.

You can't please all of the people all of the time.

Thank you

Edit - Sorry, that was in answer to Jai Dee's last post. Stupid dial up connection is so slow!

Maybe, maybe not. You willing to take the risk?

Well, it's not my decision is it? Currently the rules are that you can't, I was suggesting that maybe it isn't necessary by raising a point that maybe mods & admins haven't thought of. Not too bothered either way, just contributing to the discussion really...

thank you Jai Dee.

Sbk... love it when you get twitchy.. .

Anyhow, off to find some work,

I'll (temporarily) leave you sbk's signature.

'Surely, in the light of history, it is more intelligent to hope rather than to fear, to try rather than not to try. For one thing we know beyond all doubt: Nothing has ever been achieved by the person who says, "It can't be done" ' Eleanor Roosevelt

So this has proved some very interesting reading, me thinks. A lot of eloquent opinions and the like.

I'd like to ask (as O.P) that we tread carefully here, with regards to any discussion of moderator actions.

Ok I have to ask - why is questioning a moderator so wrong? I am happy to have the moderators take that question to PM but I think it is fair and reasonable. Moderators are not omnipitent demi gods who descend to the the middle earth for their own enjoyment. If moderators really do want to do that then they should stay OUT of general conversation and become involved ONLY with administering the RULES. Umpires in sport don't get involved in the game so why should moderators? If a moderator makes a post in a forum and says for example sontam with blah rah is disgusting and stinks like rotten fish. If I say I disagree and write it in the forum that I think they are wrong, then I am breaking their rules by questioning their post.

Only a couple of posts ago there was a poorly veiled threat from a moderator because someone wrote "I may be breaking the rules by writing this ...."

My question, to take this thread onwards, is what do you think We, as a collective, do to bring Bedlam back, so to speak, without treading on the toes of the Rules, but nonetheless bring it back to a level, as Lamphun stated (i agree) of yesteryear?

I wasn't here when it was apparently interesting so have no idea what the topics were or if the "more interesting posters" are still around. What I would like to see is less half arsed discussions such as "is so and so weird" and more that are relevant to foreigners living IN Thailand and where foreigners living in Thailand can discuss with other foreigners living in Thailand. There are a myriad of discussions that are relevant to us here that benefit from not having some dweeb from Outer Woking on York that spent two weeks on holiday in Pattaya as the sum total of his experience in Thailand.

Its been raised before - in the outer forums a question such as "do I need to have a return air line ticket to get a visa renewal" degenerates into 5473 pieces of unintelligent drivel about where is the best place to get a massage but the original post doesn't get answered." In this arena Bedlam I can ask a question and the collective intelligence here will most likely quickly give me the correct answer without the same crap.

Other forums can be more light hearted such as the last word or the new one from JG about 10 letter words - they don't really belong here but irrespective of what some may think they are interesting and entertaining. Some of these are fun because of the participants, out in the general forum they would be turned into crapola very quickly.

I think any discussion about the big NO NO discussion should be enforced but I seriously doubt if anyone in Bedlam would even consider raising it - we ALL know it cannot be done. Political discussion would be problematic and need to be carefully monitored as would a discussion on comparative religion. These are contentious issues and people take them very seriously. I would expect that at times these discussion would have to be closed IF they degenerated into a flame war but better to control the posters than destroy the vehicle.

So, what can we do to find a line where moderation essentially trusts us to "play like grown-ups" again?

I think we need to individually and collectively raise our game - this is a priveledge as often (ad nauseum) stated and we should accept it.

A long time ago I was granted a military commission and my commanding officer at the time gave me a very good piece of advice "respect is earned not granted. To gain respect you must give it" That counts for us as posters and well as moderators

"Any group that will not allow its actions to be questioned or criticised do so not from power but from fear of hearing the truth. A government that will not allow freedom of speech is a benevolent dictatorship at best, but a dictatorship none the less."

CB

twitchy is a good word for it, thanks kayo.

dantilley, what makes you think we haven't discussed this extensively?

Crow Boy, it is discussing moderation issues that is against forum rules. Not moderators personal posts. I have been roundly criticized by people who don't agree with my opinion but have never issued a warning to people who do so. However, this does not apply to moderator actions as moderators. And you do know what I mean by that, I am sure I don't need to explain it to you.

Anyway, I, for one, don't care if you discuss politics or nonsense. BUT, some people do. So, who do we make happy? The ones who want their rubbish and hijack the forum with thread after thread of it? The ones who want their politics and hijack the forum with thread after thread of it, much of it turning nasty and personal? And self-moderating seems unlikely given the past. Instead, people came complaining to the moderators.

YOU come up with the answer. If Bedlam is important what can YOU do to make it happen instead of turning into a political flame fest or stagnate with nonsense? Suggestions please. (and that is a collective YOU)

If a moderator makes a post in a forum and says for example sontam with blah rah is disgusting and stinks like rotten fish. If I say I disagree and write it in the forum that I think they are wrong, then I am breaking their rules by questioning their post.

Now that is really really reaching.

If you want to get anywhere with the mods you have to be reasonable in your argument. Pointing out extreme technicalities just hurts the cause of loosening up bedlam because it makes the case look kind of ridiculous.

They are saying don't take them to task on moderation issues in the open, not on a regular discussion and you bloody well know that.

Ok I have to ask - why is questioning a moderator so wrong?

I agree that it's odd that no-one ever seems to explain the reasoning behind this, but I think it's to prevent a situation where every decision gets questioned and debated and so the moderators then spend all their time answering these and have no time left for moderating other threads.

Unless a mod can tell us otherwise?

They are saying don't take them to task on moderation issues in the open, not on a regular discussion and you bloody well know that.

You are correct it is far reaching but they are not saying you cannot take them to task on moderation issues in the open, they are saying you cannot question at all. So why don't you add you comments to impoving the forum instead of trying to flame me?

CB