They are saying don't take them to task on moderation issues in the open, not on a regular discussion and you bloody well know that.

You are correct it is far reaching but they are not saying you cannot take them to task on moderation issues in the open, they are saying you cannot question at all. So why don't you add you comments to impoving the forum instead of trying to flame me?

CB

I was not flaming you. Try usenet in the 80's, that was flaming.

If you make a reasoned discussion, the mods will listen. If you try to adopt an extreme opinion and start citing outlandish technicalities they will roll their eyes and tune you out. That accomplishes nothing.

Nobody is saying you cannot disagree with a mod in a general discussion. In all the time I've been here I've never once seen a moderator use their moderator's tools to win an argument on a general discussion, and making it seem like they would does not further this discussion, but cheapens it.

If we want to discuss changing things it needs to be in a productive manner. If it's done this way things do sometimes get adjusted more to the users wishes. Not always, but who ever gets their way all the time anyways?

Ok I have to ask - why is questioning a moderator so wrong?

I agree that it's odd that no-one ever seems to explain the reasoning behind this, but I think it's to prevent a situation where every decision gets questioned and debated and so the moderators then spend all their time answering these and have no time left for moderating other threads.

Unless a mod can tell us otherwise?

To be fair in this - I think any question on moderation should be between the people involved in PM. I have asked two moderators a question about something they did. They were p1p and jaidee. Both answered my PM and I understood their reasons, no problem.

One thing that is common though is a tendency of moderators to say "I don't like where this is going" and without prior warning or telling the protagonists to step back the forum is "CLOSED"

In some cases this is justifiable because a topic has jumped into areas that are not allowed to be discussed in Thailand because of the law but in others it is because a moderator has suddenly decided that they don't think the topic is worthy and so close it as boring or off topic.

However while important is not central to the topic at hand which is improving Bedlam

CB

I will post this & hopefully it will close the moderating descision discussion once & for all ok.

All warnings, suspensions & discussion about posts or posts that we may not be sure on are discussed as a group & if something is difficult to decide then admin is asked to make the final call. So a mod doesn't just go ahead & do what they want as other mods will do & have questioned a descision if they think it has been handled wrong or needs to be handled a different way. We mods often ask for input from the rest of the moderators if we are not sure our actions have been fair or if we have missed something or read the issue wrong.

So we aren't just making descisions willy nilly but as with life there are descison makers (admin) & rule enforcers (mods) & the general public (you posters) have to live within the rules & if you disagree with a descision are allowed to raise it to admin as they have final say. BUT admin decided on the no discussion of moderation rule and as they own the board, we & you have to abide by it.

The actions of moderators is not open for general discussion. We are all volunteers & as such shouldn't have to defend our actions regarding running this forum or deal with the sometimes disgustingly abusive pm's some simple moderating descision provoke, as it is discussed amoungst the other mods & admin. And as said above, admin make the rules & want it this way so posters are told to raise it with admin should they disagree with a descision, it isn't that hard to remember IMO.

Oh & cdnvic, totally spot on

I was not flaming you. Try usenet in the 80's, that was flaming.

Try using fidonet in the 70s, PODs in the early 80's and any other bulletin board of the era.

If you make a reasoned discussion, the mods will listen. If you try to adopt an extreme opinion and start citing outlandish technicalities they will roll their eyes and tune you out. That accomplishes nothing.

Nobody is saying you cannot disagree with a mod in a general discussion. In all the time I've been here I've never once seen a moderator use their moderator's tools to win an argument on a general discussion, and making it seem like they would does not further this discussion, but cheapens it.

If we want to discuss changing things it needs to be in a productive manner. If it's done this way things do sometimes get adjusted more to the users wishes. Not always, but who ever gets their way all the time anyways?

I have made reasoned discussion on this issue because I think it is important - you should try the same thing.

CB

What happened to personal choice? If you don't like, or are not interested in, a topic's subject or overall intent don't go there. Do any of us go to the movies and watch a film we know we won't like. I don't see what the issue is provided nobody hijacks a thread on the relative merits of two humped camels with a long anti Arab political diatribe. Also provided the postings recognise the forum rules and don't get into personal attacks.

You are correct it is far reaching but they are not saying you cannot take them to task on moderation issues in the open, they are saying you cannot question at all.

That is not true.

Many times (and I'm sure other mods have experienced this too) my moderation actions have been questioned by members by means of PM's. In every case I've replied with a detailed explanation of my reasons. In 99.9% of the cases in question, the member has thanked me for the explanation and accepted the action.

I have learnt from this interaction too... as a result I have tried to explain more fully in a public post why moderator intervention was required... thus eliminating the need for further queries.

Don't forget... the rules are made by Forum Administration... not mods.

Our job is to see that the members abide by them.

Anyway... back on topic... from the Bedlam Rules:

What is Bedlam?

Bedlam is a more relaxed part of Thaivisa.com forums, where a member who has achieved 500 posts automatically gains access. The idea is that the rules are still in place but the Administrators and Moderators will be more lenient with applying them. Posts that are not strictly Thailand related can be posted here, posts with a slightly more adult (grown up) nature are allowed (but be sensible), Its a place where humor and banter is accepted. A place where the community can share and discuss topics which don't fit in the rest of Thaivisa.com.

So... to answer November Rain's question... the answer is yes.

What happened to personal choice? If you don't like, or are not interested in, a topic's subject or overall intent don't go there. Do any of us go to the movies and watch a film we know we won't like. I don't see what the issue is provided nobody hijacks a thread on the relative merits of two humped camels with a long anti Arab political diatribe. Also provided the postings recognise the forum rules and don't get into personal attacks.

Two very big "provideds" that many posters can't seem to follow.

Thank you, Jai Dee. LaoPo, your idea - are you going to start the Virginia Tech Shooting thread?

I will post this & hopefully it will close the moderating descision discussion once & for all ok.

All warnings, suspensions & discussion about posts or posts that we may not be sure on are discussed as a group & if something is difficult to decide then admin is asked to make the final call. So a mod doesn't just go ahead & do what they want as other mods will do & have questioned a descision if they think it has been handled wrong or needs to be handled a different way. We mods often ask for input from the rest of the moderators if we are not sure our actions have been fair or if we have missed something or read the issue wrong.

So we aren't just making descisions willy nilly but as with life there are descison makers (admin) & rule enforcers (mods) & the general public (you posters) have to live within the rules & if you disagree with a descision are allowed to raise it to admin as they have final say. BUT admin decided on the no discussion of moderation rule and as they own the board, we & you have to abide by it.

The actions of moderators is not open for general discussion. We are all volunteers & as such shouldn't have to defend our actions regarding running this forum or deal with the sometimes disgustingly abusive pm's some simple moderating descision provoke, as it is discussed amoungst the other mods & admin. And as said above, admin make the rules & want it this way so posters are told to raise it with admin should they disagree with a descision, it isn't that hard to remember IMO.

Oh & cdnvic, totally spot on

Can everyone re-read this post by Boo before posting anything else on Moderation issues.

Jeez, the majority of newbies know the rules, so anyone in Bedlam should definately know the rules. It's not rocket science for goodness sake.

The subject matter of this topic could be quite interesting, if we don't go off into another tangent about moderation issues.

Mr. BJ: Amen to that!

my fourth attempt to post something here today, the first three I trashed before hitting the post button. Essentially I wanted to say:

Please re-read also the Bedlam Rules and check each and every post against it. You will find out that the practical application is far more relaxed than the wording itself. An please...may it stay like that!

I think most of the issues raised have been addressed to some extent.

I also feel somewhat more at ease. I thank the mods and each member for their constructive input over this, very touchy issue.

I did start my day with post 47 (how's that for irony? ) in which I asked to tread lightly on a certain issue. The following 20 posts all stamped all over that same issue, and we got the added bonus of the beginnings of a personal off topic disagreement/discussion between two otherwise very eloquent members. That sort of thing, I think, would be the perfect example of where something can go into PM's and kept out of a thread.

As far as I'm concerned, as O.P. I got the answers I needed. And I think we've all got some food to think about. Let's see how we grow out of this?

Shall we call it a day, for the time being?

thank everybody for their input.

edit: added "off topic, disagree/discussion"

edit2: This doesn't have to be the last word. Up to you. But my blessings to close it in the next few hours tops, I think.

EDIT 3... as a final final thought from this chang.. I'm glad to not have access tothe mod forum as someone mentioned earlier... I'd be wery wery afraid to see what they are saying about me right now... :D

So... to answer November Rain's question... the answer is yes.

Jaidee, in your post #19 you wrote this:

" I hear what you say LaoPo, but what if we allowed any and all non-Thai related topics to be discussed here?

You gave the example of a US-based tragedy, which would be understandably close to the hearts of American ThaiVisa members.

But what about our members from other parts of the globe... say our Malaysian Muslim members, or our Indian Hindu members... other races and creeds and religions... ? What about topics that may be equally or more important to their personal agendas?

Do you really think that such a diverse forum could be self-managing? (ie. no moderator intervention?)

Speaking only for myself (and not the other moderators or admin), the only thing that keeps ThaiVisa subforums (including Bedlam) connectivity going is the fact that its all Thailand-relanted.

I like that... and I like the idea of disallowing non-Thai related topics. It keeps the playing field even... without fear of attack from some majority/minority who may have differing opinions and only want to stir up trouble. "

Now I'm puzzled; but happy 'Virginia/USA' is allowed.

November Rain:

Being a non native English speaker, non-US, -UK, -Australia, or -NZ I think it's best that maybe another (US?) member starts that topic (if anyone wishes to do so) who has a better feeling and insight than myself in this tragedy.

LaoPo

I think, LaoPo, this was the relevant part of Jaidee's that you missed:

Do you really think that such a diverse forum could be self-managing? (ie. no moderator intervention?)

As far as I'm concerned, as O.P. I got the answers I needed. And I think we've all got some food to think about. Let's see how we grow out of this?

edit2: This doesn't have to be the last word. Up to you. But my blessings to close it in the next few hours tops, I think.

* You got the answers....but is there a final solution now to our discussion regarding 'Bedlam' ?

* Let's see how we grow........and in the same message you:

* ..give your blessings to close the thread ?

I thought we just started

serious:

"Under no circumstances will any non-Thai related political topics/posts be allowed on the forum. The Bearpit is the place for non-Thai political discussion."

From, Bedlam, The Rules:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=111813

The rule, above, is perhaps the most strict Forum rule written in the Bedlam Forum Rules.

I would like to ask the Administration, Super/Moderators and Posters, here on Bedlam, about their opinion if it would be possible and/or wished to create a special sub-forum on Bedlam specially designed to NON-Thai Politics.

I'm not sure if there ever was such a forum like 'Bearpit' on Thaivisa before...?

The reasons I ask this is the fact that I feel more and more confused about the General- and Bedlam Forum rules. Am I alone ?

Last night I almost fell off my chair reading a thead under "General Topics" by one of the most esteemed and respected Super Moderators as well as earliest members, called:

"A Woman of Courage" - about Aung San Suu Kyi of Burma (wellknown I suppose), written by Gordon Brown/UK (the supposed new PM of the UK)

The same thread continues in post #5, completely off-topic, about South Africa.

I was perplexed because it has/had nothing to do with Thailand but went all the way into Politics.

Now, I am a strong supporter of these kind of threads, and the mentioned SM as well, but that's why I said earlier that I am completely confused now about WHAT is allowed and WHAT is NOT allowed, both in General and Bedlam Forums.

with the utmost respect !

edit:

SBK: No, I didn't miss that and I replied later to that one in specific fully agreeing that Bedlam could NOT be self-managing.

LaoPo

Appreciate the response SBK, and all the other responses given in this thread.

Nothing further to add here.

As far as I'm concerned, as O.P. I got the answers I needed. And I think we've all got some food to think about. Let's see how we grow out of this?

edit2: This doesn't have to be the last word. Up to you. But my blessings to close it in the next few hours tops, I think.

* You got the answers....but is there a final solution now to our discussion regarding 'Bedlam' ?

* Let's see how we grow........and in the same message you:

* ..give your blessings to close the thread ?

I thought we just started

serious:

"Under no circumstances will any non-Thai related political topics/posts be allowed on the forum. The Bearpit is the place for non-Thai political discussion."

From, Bedlam, The Rules:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=111813

The rule, above, is perhaps the most strict Forum rule written in the Bedlam Forum Rules.

I would like to ask the Administration, Super/Moderators and Posters, here on Bedlam, about their opinion if it would be possible and/or wished to create a special sub-forum on Bedlam specially designed to NON-Thai Politics.

I'm not sure if there ever was such a forum like 'Bearpit' on Thaivisa before...?

The reasons I ask this is the fact that I feel more and more confused about the General- and Bedlam Forum rules. Am I alone ?

Last night I almost fell off my chair reading a thead under "General Topics" by one of the most esteemed and respected Super Moderators as well as earliest members, called:

"A Woman of Courage" - about Aung San Suu Kyi of Burma (wellknown I suppose), written by Gordon Brown/UK (the supposed new PM of the UK)

The same thread continues in post #5, completely off-topic, about South Africa.

I was perplexed because it has/had nothing to do with Thailand but went all the way into Politics.

Now, I am a strong supporter of these kind of threads, and the mentioned SM as well, but that's why I said earlier that I am completely confused now about WHAT is allowed and WHAT is NOT allowed, both in General and Bedlam Forums.

with the utmost respect !

edit:

SBK: No, I didn't miss that and I replied later to that one in specific fully agreeing that Bedlam could NOT be self-managing.

LaoPo

I'm afraid I'm rather confused still, LaoPo, so I'm joining you, there. I am more than willing to abide by any moderator decision, or admin policy, but I must admit I do like the lines drawn in the sand very clearly.

I also think that a non-Thailand news forum would be a good idea (I won't say political, but that's how most threads will end up )

As for the Virginia Tech thread, after all this, I won't be contributing, because we can't discuss gun control (as a policy). Apart from expressing condolences, which I'm sure we all feel, I can't progress with what I wanted to say (& it wasn't an attack, it was a question) without touching on this subject. I am aware this was CB's criteria as OP, not mod/admin decision, but I still have little to say at this point.

I'm a moderator on another (much smaller) Thailand forum & I've got to say, it must be really difficult to be a mod on TV, it must be a full - time job. I truly have every admiration for all of them because I have to make the same decisions, get the same abuse (all on a lesser scale) & also, I find it difficult to separate me & my views from the moddy persona. Members tend to assume anything you say is an agreed moddy view & sometimes you just want to be you & express your views. Having said all this, I for one, would like to know exactly what is & what isn't allowed. I have no problem following rules, if I know exactly what they are. Thanks to all the mods for their candid views on this thread.

From the hip .........

I enjoy Bedlam, for me it is a place were the moderators become real people ( and I have met quite a few of them in real life ) I consider this part of the TV forum as the Green Room, the stage manager, the production assistant, the cast of thousands and the bloke with the whistle who tells you were to park your car, can all just sit down and relax.

I look at the new posts list in open forum and see a mods name as 'the last post by', I have a fairly good idea what the content is going to be .... I see the same name appear in F47 and I don't see it the same vein. I want to read it, I value their opinion..... because, to be quite honest, this sub-forum contains the most people whose opinions I do respect, whatever their status.

We are adults in this forum - please respect us and allow us to have discussions like adults

Is this adult behaviour? Goading noobies to get them banned?

We are adults in this forum - please respect us and allow us to have discussions like adults

Is this adult behaviour? Goading noobies to get them banned?

No it isn't, it's rather childish.

Which is far removed from child-like.

I believe we babbled and bantered about this topic only a moon or so ago. Many valid points came up again in this thread, too. But, I'm of the mind that Bedlam is the playground for all the Thai-tale-weary members who have brains that are usually turned on.

I don't mind political threads, inane threads, hot bum threads. As I said before, there is a menu and I can choose the topics I wish to read and contribute to, and ignore those that I do not. Easy.

Of course topics get derailed at times, but largely because posters "know" each other. One or two short jousts -- not cruel personal attacks -- in a thread add a bit of chilli to the pot, I reckon.

The insane threads are good for creative word crafts, and I enjoy reading them. Mind, with Sunshine's contributions in General, that forum is more bizarre than Beddies at the mo.

I'm here mostly for the laughs and to help if I know the answer to something. I've also learned alot of different things and come to admire many of the members for their words, wisdom and/or wit.

We are adults in this forum - please respect us and allow us to have discussions like adults

Is this adult behaviour? Goading noobies to get them banned?

Where have I goaded newbies to get banned?

CB

As for the Virginia Tech thread, after all this, I won't be contributing, because we can't discuss gun control (as a policy). Apart from expressing condolences, which I'm sure we all feel, I can't progress with what I wanted to say (& it wasn't an attack, it was a question) without touching on this subject. I am aware this was CB's criteria as OP, not mod/admin decision, but I still have little to say at this point.

November I would really like to open a discussion on gun control, but we all know what will result. It will be a US v the World, Guns are good v Guns are Evil. Freedom to Own V Gun Control. It is an extremely emotive subject and would be a moderator's nightmare. I don't think it would be fair on the moderators who really would have to vet every single posting before it could be loaded up on the board simply to control it. I didn't want the thread to develop into a flame war - this is tragedy enough without adding to it. I wanted the thread to simply be a place for people to leave a message and express their sympathy.

I'm a moderator on another (much smaller) Thailand forum & I've got to say, it must be really difficult to be a mod on TV, it must be a full - time job. I truly have every admiration for all of them because I have to make the same decisions, get the same abuse (all on a lesser scale) & also, I find it difficult to separate me & my views from the moddy persona. Members tend to assume anything you say is an agreed moddy view & sometimes you just want to be you & express your views. Having said all this, I for one, would like to know exactly what is & what isn't allowed. I have no problem following rules, if I know exactly what they are. Thanks to all the mods for their candid views on this thread.

This morning I reread the entire thread and I think that there were a lot of valid points raised by different people. I looked at some of the more contentious ones and to be blunt I think the replies by a couple of the moderators have to be the worst. A post such as "you looking for a holiday?" or "I have PMT so watch it" are inane and if had been posted by a "member" would have been slapped down.

I enjoy TV and especially Bedlam - there are many people here both moderators and members that I respect for their humour, logic, and views. Kayo makes me laugh, JG is good fun to joust. I like reading your (NV) views. Seugha, p1p, and DeeJai,makes me think, and there are many others. We are all different, come from different backgrounds, and have different views. Something that might push my button will roll of someone else's back. Something I may find hilarious others will not raise a smile on others. Different strokes for different folks.

I have a rule which is what I write here under my personna as Crow Boy is exactly the same as I will say to your face or behind your back. I don't create or use an alterego just to be on Thai Visa. Reading all my posts on this thread - I stand by them and would say them face to face, I think a couple were a bit over the top but I don't regret them.

regards

CB

Last night I almost fell off my chair reading a thead under "General Topics" by one of the most esteemed and respected Super Moderators as well as earliest members, called:

"A Woman of Courage" - about Aung San Suu Kyi of Burma (wellknown I suppose), written by Gordon Brown/UK (the supposed new PM of the UK)

The same thread continues in post #5, completely off-topic, about South Africa.

I was perplexed because it has/had nothing to do with Thailand but went all the way into Politics.

I must admit I too am curious about Rinrada's posting of that particular topic... unfornately he's offline and in another time zone at present so cannot be contacted. I can only assume that as one of Thailand's immediate neighbours, the subject of the Burmese junta opposition leader does have some significance for Thailand. Maybe he's got more ties that he wants to share with us in future posts... a bit like a novel writer... string it out... hook the readers... add a twist here and there... We'll have to wait and see...

I am completely confused now about WHAT is allowed and WHAT is NOT allowed, both in General and Bedlam Forums.

I do apologise if I've contributed to the confusion... what I meant was "I like the idea of disallowing non-Thai related political topics".

The rules as they are were initially queried by admin, then proposed, discussed, molded, and agreed on by the mods, and finally sanctioned by admin and posted.

All clear now?

My post above was composed approximately an hour ago and I did not press the Add Reply button until now as I have just come out of a meeting... hence not responding to the latest posts until now.

This morning I reread the entire thread and I think that there were a lot of valid points raised by different people. I looked at some of the more contentious ones and to be blunt I think the replies by a couple of the moderators have to be the worst. A post such as "you looking for a holiday?" or "I have PMT so watch it" are inane and if had been posted by a "member" would have been slapped down.

The post above is treading on very thin ice CB... to date the moderators have been very lenient in this thread with the "no discussion of moderation" rule, but you continue to openly criticise us.

There is a reward for such behaviour... it is called "moderator preview". Basically it means that you can log on to the forum, read posts, and reply if you want... but your replies (as well as new posts/topics) will be invisible to the forum until a moderator has read it and approved it.

Do you really want that to happen? By openly criticising mods you're certainly asking for it.

I strongly suggest you back off and behave... or you may not only be put on mod preview, but excluded from Bedlam as well.

Up to you.

Aye, in all fairness Crowboy, it's not only mods who suffer from pmt.

From experience (i'm sure many of us share) I wouldn't cross any lady with pmt. Mod or not.

That's gotta be less than 2 satang's worth.

We are adults in this forum - please respect us and allow us to have discussions like adults

Is this adult behaviour? Goading noobies to get them banned?

Where have I goaded newbies to get banned?

CB

I was pointing at the thread rather than your particular contributions to it.

Last night I almost fell off my chair reading a thead under "General Topics" by one of the most esteemed and respected Super Moderators as well as earliest members, called:

"A Woman of Courage" - about Aung San Suu Kyi of Burma (wellknown I suppose), written by Gordon Brown/UK (the supposed new PM of the UK)

The same thread continues in post #5, completely off-topic, about South Africa.

I was perplexed because it has/had nothing to do with Thailand but went all the way into Politics.

I must admit I too am curious about Rinrada's posting of that particular topic... unfornately he's offline and in another time zone at present so cannot be contacted. I can only assume that as one of Thailand's immediate neighbours, the subject of the Burmese junta opposition leader does have some significance for Thailand. Maybe he's got more ties that he wants to share with us in future posts... a bit like a novel writer... string it out... hook the readers... add a twist here and there... We'll have to wait and see...

I am completely confused now about WHAT is allowed and WHAT is NOT allowed, both in General and Bedlam Forums.

I do apologise if I've contributed to the confusion... what I meant was "I like the idea of disallowing non-Thai related political topics".

The rules as they are were initially queried by admin, then proposed, discussed, molded, and agreed on by the mods, and finally sanctioned by admin and posted.

All clear now?

I feel so at ease now that I am probably able to sleep better tonight and dream about Bedlam....

LaoPo

The OP has sent me a PM requesting closure of this thread, along with this final comment:

I think this thread has outlived its usefulness for the time being.

As mentioned earlier, we all have some food for thought, and as a result, mayhap any lingering doubts/tensions maybe resolved as we grow onwards from this thread and discussions of the past month or so.

Additionally, I think it would be redundant to have people risk personal moderation or worse as a result of this thread, at this stage, hence I request to close it now.

Thanks again to all mods and members concerned.

/Closed.