Video of Floyd's death offers clues into ex-Minneapolis officers' possible defense, say legal experts

[ChouDoufu]

12 minutes ago, Phil McCaverty said:

Unfortunately for the perp, his 3 co defendants are squealing like stuck pigs and are highly likely to turn states evidence against him.

unfortunately for chauvin, all four cops had their bodycams in operation during the entire sequence of events.

 

the jury is going to see exactly what happened from the perspective of each officer.

 

=============

 

despite the protestations of defense lawyers, they are going to watch and listen for six minutes while a helpless, handcuffed man begs for his life.

 

they are going to watch and listen when at the six-minute point one of the subordinate officers holding floyd informs his superior that floyd has no pulse.

 

they are going to watch and listen when the other officer holding floyd asks to move him.

 

they are going to watch and listen as chauvin denies their request and continues to kneel on the neck of the suspect with no pulse for another three minutes.

 

*the defense will attempt to stop the recording.  the judge will allow it.*

 

and they are going to watch and listen as bystanders are telling the cops the man is bleeding, the man can't breathe.

 

and hopefully, if they didn't "accidentally" turn off their bodycams, they are going to watch and listen as chauvin and his subordinates attempt to get their story straight.

 

 

[digger70]

5 hours ago, simple1 said:

It is interesting so many members are playing lawyers in their attempts to defend the killings of an African American by a white police

I didn't Defend the  cops all i did was stating some Facts . 

Don't start posting Lies It makes you look like a fool.

[digger70]

1 hour ago, animalmagic said:

Absolute twaddle!  Did the police officers at the time know he was high on something?

I can name several hundred police officers in several countries who would NOT have done the same.  

Wow that's good if you know All the officers in those countries . The officers are always on high alert and must/do expect the Worst in a situation. so twaddle of you hear.

[stevenl]

37 minutes ago, digger70 said:

I didn't Defend the  cops all i did was stating some Facts . 

Don't start posting Lies It makes you look like a fool.

You could have fooled me with this post "

Mr. Floyd was a drug addict and at the time was high on Fentanyl, which is more potent than Heroin. also he was drunk 

That alone Was enough to Use Force. Any cop in Any country would've done same .No Matter what Colour the crim or the cop  was."

[fruitman]

Floyd broke into the home of a pregnant black lady, he robbed her and pointed his gun on her pregnant belly....

 

What a scumbag! How can they all protest for him? Loosers!

[ChouDoufu]

8 minutes ago, fruitman said:

Floyd broke into the home of a pregnant black lady, he robbed her and pointed his gun on her pregnant belly....

 

What a scumbag! How can they all protest for him? Loosers!

 

if that is all true, then he was arrested for that crime (without being murdered!), was charged, went to court, was convicted, and sentenced to jail.  following his time in prison, he was released, having served his sentence, paying his debt to society, a free man.

 

now it's chauvin's turn.

[EVENKEEL]

George was a gentle giant, such a good boy.

[buick]

1 hour ago, ChouDoufu said:

what situation?  they got a call about a non-violent alleged forged bill!

 

this is NOT a lone highway patrolman in the middle of nowhere at 4am pulling over a car suspected of involvement with an armed robbery of a filling station with 4-5 guys inside with busted windows, broken taillights, blackened windows, and pumping out hippyhop music!

 

it's late afternoon on a busy city street.  four cops vs. one helpless, handcuffed suspect.

 

the 911 call did not say violent but did have the following:

 

A transcript of the 911 call made Monday night during George Floyd's arrest has been released by the City of Minneapolis. According to the transcript, the caller told the dispatcher there was a "tall guy" who was "awfully drunk and he's not in control of himself." 

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/george-floyd-death-911-transcript-minneapolis-police/

 

i should mention i read that the guy that made the 911 call was fired by the owner of the store.

 

if you've seen the full video, the two rookie cops were the first on scene.  they had the situation somewhat under control.  their main issue was they couldn't get floyd into the car.  he was obviously arrested and on his way to the station.  but they couldn't get him in the car.  then the backup unit showed up.  with the 'kneeler', he freaked out when they couldn't get him in the car (they all tried again) and then he took a knee on floyd's neck.

 

i agree with your earlier comment about the body cams in terms of assisting the case in court.  i'm sure it will get the kneeler a long sentence.  but i'm guessing it is going to get the rookies a much shorter sentence and possibly time served (unless they get bail).  they'll be in jail a year or two before this trial is over.  i'm not sure about the kneeler's partner, he seemed to be faced the other way and didn't care much.  will be interesting what happens to him.  but the rookies, apparently one guy was on his third shift (ever) and the other guy was on his fourth day, aren't going down hard for this. 

 

i can't remember all the specifics from the rodney king case but generally speaking, they ended up getting the ringleader and his main accomplice.  and that was in the second trial.  all were acquitted in the first one.  so they'll get the kneeler on a big charge, maybe his partner on a lesser charge, and probably not much for the rookies (although a year or two in jail ain't easy, but better than 15 yrs).

 

[simple1]

1 hour ago, i84teen said:

Not required to prove intent under the statute.

Let the lawyers sort it out. An example definition...

 

Second-degree murder is an intentional killing, but is less serious than first-degree murder because some malicious factors aren’t present. Both first- and second-degree murder in Minnesota have aspects of the “felony murder rule.” Felony murder is when you kill a person during the commission of another felony, such as rape or burglary.

 

https://statelaws.findlaw.com/minnesota-law/minnesota-second-degree-murder.html

[simple1]

1 hour ago, digger70 said:

I didn't Defend the  cops all i did was stating some Facts . 

Don't start posting Lies It makes you look like a fool.

No you did not post facts, you made assumptions

 

Mr. Floyd was a drug addict and at the time was high on Fentanyl, which is more potent than Heroin. also he was drunk That alone was enough to Use Force. Any cop any country would've done same .No Matter what Colour the crim or the cop  was.

 

I do not resile from my post...

 

It is interesting so many members are playing lawyers in their attempts to defend the killings of an African American by a white police

 

 

Edited June 6, 2020 by simple1

[i84teen]

17 minutes ago, simple1 said:

Let the lawyers sort it out. An example definition...

 

Second-degree murder is an intentional killing, but is less serious than first-degree murder because some malicious factors aren’t present. Both first- and second-degree murder in Minnesota have aspects of the “felony murder rule.” Felony murder is when you kill a person during the commission of another felony, such as rape or burglary.

 

https://statelaws.findlaw.com/minnesota-law/minnesota-second-degree-murder.html

Well, if you are referring to the cop, D Chauvin, there are 3 (three) counts in the amended complaint and they are:

Count 1: Charge: Second Degree Murder - Unintentional - While Committing A Felony
Minnesota Statute: 609.19.2(1)

 

Count 2: Third Degree Murder - Perpetrating Eminently Dangerous Act and Evincing Depraved Mind
Minnesota Statute: 609.195(a)

 

Count 3: Second Degree Manslaughter - Culpable Negligence Creating Unreasonable Risk
Minnesota Statute: 609.205(1)

 

What part of "unintentional" confuses you?  Just refer to the attached MN statutes which should you help better understand difference between intentional and unintentional 2nd degree murder (in Minnesota). Note that premeditation is the primary criteria differentiating 2nd and 1st degree, NOT intent.

Edited June 6, 2020 by i84teen

[simple1]

2 minutes ago, i84teen said:

Well, if you are referring to the cop, D Chauvin, there are 3 (three) counts in the amended complaint and they are:

Count 1: Charge: Second Degree Murder - Unintentional - While Committing A Felony
Minnesota Statute: 609.19.2(1)

 

Count 2: Third Degree Murder - Perpetrating Eminently Dangerous Act and Evincing Depraved Mind
Minnesota Statute: 609.195(a)

 

Count 3: Second Degree Manslaughter - Culpable Negligence Creating Unreasonable Risk
Minnesota Statute: 609.205(1)

 

What part of "unintentional" confuses you?  Just refer to the attached MN statutes which should you help better understand difference between intentional and unintentional 2nd degree murder (in Minnesota). Note that premeditation is the primary criteria differentiating 2nd and 1st degree, NOT intent.

OK. I'm not a lawyer. Seems odd to me 'unintentional' when cutting off blood / oxygen supply to the brain for more than eight minutes, though as said I'm not a lawyer. Assuming you have legal training can charges be upgraded / downgraded during time prior to proceedings? 

[i84teen]

25 minutes ago, simple1 said:

OK. I'm not a lawyer. Seems odd to me 'unintentional' when cutting off blood / oxygen supply to the brain for more than eight minutes, though as said I'm not a lawyer. Assuming you have legal training can charges be upgraded / downgraded during time prior to proceedings? 

Yes, this IS the amended complaint, the original complaint listed 2 counts only:

Count 1: Third Degree Murder - Perpetrating Eminently Dangerous Act and Evincing Depraved Mind, Minnesota Statute: 609.195(a)

Count 2: 609.205 MANSLAUGHTER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.

 

Further charges can be brought if new details or evidence emerges during the "investigations", especially if his co-accused reveal new details that can be corroborated. Some noted legal scholars have said the evidence to date could support 1st degree murder.

And no, I am not a lawyer but my youngest is, which makes me old(er)...lol

Edited June 6, 2020 by i84teen

[digger70]

2 hours ago, simple1 said:

No you did not post facts, you made assumptions

 

Mr. Floyd was a drug addict and at the time was high on Fentanyl, which is more potent than Heroin. also he was drunk That alone was enough to Use Force. Any cop any country would've done same .No Matter what Colour the crim or the cop  was.

 

I do not resile from my post...

 

It is interesting so many members are playing lawyers in their attempts to defend the killings of an African American by a white police

 

 

What assumptions?  I only posted what was stated in the news. I you  can't handle the Truth then so be it . you're still posting Lies. 

 

[simple1]

18 minutes ago, digger70 said:

What assumptions?  I only posted what was stated in the news. I you  can't handle the Truth then so be it . you're still posting Lies. 

Read the highlighted content in my post, seems to me you're being deliberately obtuse. BTW link to the news article which states it's normal protocol for police to use force on someone who is intoxicated and doesn't present as a threat. Actually to be accurate 'homicidal force' (confirmed by two autopsies).  Back up your claim I'm lying.

Edited June 6, 2020 by simple1

[digger70]

8 minutes ago, simple1 said:

Read the highlighted content in my post, seems to me you're being deliberately obtuse. BTW link to the news article which states it's normal protocol for police to use force on someone who is intoxicated and doesn't present as a threat. Actually to be accurate 'homicidal force' (confirmed by two autopsies).  Back up your claim I'm lying.

 I call this a Lie . 

 

It is interesting so many members are playing lawyers in their attempts to defend the killings of an African American by a white police officer without knowing the actual evidence.

 

No good talking to you you twisting everything around to suit You.  Amen  

[digger70]

6 hours ago, animalmagic said:

Not awesome really, just friendly.  The fact still remains that I know several hundred police officers in several countries who would not have done what we saw. 

My response was to a claim by digger70 that any cop in any country would have done the same, please bear that in mind when trying to belittle using sarcasm.

You better be careful, Being Too friendly can get you in trouble just as easy.  ????

[ChouDoufu]

4 hours ago, buick said:

 

the 911 call did not say violent but did have the following:

 

A transcript of the 911 call made Monday night during George Floyd's arrest has been released by the City of Minneapolis. According to the transcript, the caller told the dispatcher there was a "tall guy" who was "awfully drunk and he's not in control of himself." 

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/george-floyd-death-911-transcript-minneapolis-police/

 

i should mention i read that the guy that made the 911 call was fired by the owner of the store.

 

if you've seen the full video, the two rookie cops were the first on scene.  they had the situation somewhat under control.  their main issue was they couldn't get floyd into the car.  he was obviously arrested and on his way to the station.  but they couldn't get him in the car.  then the backup unit showed up.  with the 'kneeler', he freaked out when they couldn't get him in the car (they all tried again) and then he took a knee on floyd's neck.

 

i agree with your earlier comment about the body cams in terms of assisting the case in court.  i'm sure it will get the kneeler a long sentence.  but i'm guessing it is going to get the rookies a much shorter sentence and possibly time served (unless they get bail).  they'll be in jail a year or two before this trial is over.  i'm not sure about the kneeler's partner, he seemed to be faced the other way and didn't care much.  will be interesting what happens to him.  but the rookies, apparently one guy was on his third shift (ever) and the other guy was on his fourth day, aren't going down hard for this. 

 

i can't remember all the specifics from the rodney king case but generally speaking, they ended up getting the ringleader and his main accomplice.  and that was in the second trial.  all were acquitted in the first one.  so they'll get the kneeler on a big charge, maybe his partner on a lesser charge, and probably not much for the rookies (although a year or two in jail ain't easy, but better than 15 yrs).

 

 

are you sure the rookies were there first?  from what i read chauvin and his partner were the ones who removed floyd from his car.  the partner took the passenger side, chauvin the driver side.  according to that report chauvin pulled his gun, pointed it at floyd and then had him step out.

 

nice transcript!  yeah, i agree, the clerk should have been fired.  so he says the guys drunk.  no mention of violence.  no need to pull a weapon.

 

but regardless, let's grant floyd was a bad man.  an evil man.  a violent man.  let's grant he resisted.  let's even grant he took a swing at one of the cops.  okay, fine.  use force to subdue him. 

 

but once you have him subdued, in cuffs, on his stomach on the ground, the amount of force allowed is greatly reduced.  kneeling on a subdued man's neck for nine minutes?  for what purpose?  that in itself would get chauvin fired and the department sued for millions.

 

but here's the thing.  he did it for nine minutes.  at the six minute point he was informed the suspect's pulse had stopped.

 

nothing that occurred prior to that moment matters in the slightest.

 

the court case begins from the moment chauvin, the superior officer on the scene, is informed the suspect whose neck he is kneeling on, the fully-subdued suspect that he is responsible for, is dead or dying.

 

 

[connda]

On 6/5/2020 at 6:24 AM, webfact said:

"To charge them you’d have to show they knew or should have known he was acting with excessive force."

Sounds like a systemic problem within all police department.  The 'qualified immunity' and the precedence set by most Prosecutors offices nationwide simply not to prosecute police officers sets up a situation where all these cops think that they are invincible.  Then they get involved in something like this and it becomes, "I didn't know!", or "I was just following orders!". 

Btw, my guess is that all four cops will walk.  The courts aren't going to change the free pass cops have to brutalize the public. That ability is baked into the American Pie.  No criminal charges but the city (taxpayers) will pay a bundle in civil court.  Courts will never rein in the cops, riots or no riots, peaceful demonstrations or not.  They in place to promote fear of the state.  "Protect and Serve?"  Yeah, back in Mayberry with Andy Griffith.

[J Town]

5 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

George was a gentle giant, such a good boy.

Sickening that you make light of the lynching of a man by a depraved cop.

[EVENKEEL]

1 hour ago, J Town said:

Sickening that you make light of the lynching of a man by a depraved cop.

Floyd was called a gentle giant by several including his homie in the car, and I heard older ladies describing him as a good boy. Nobody was lynched...stop the theatrics.

[J Town]

29 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Floyd was called a gentle giant by several including his homie in the car, and I heard older ladies describing him as a good boy. Nobody was lynched...stop the theatrics.

Coming from anyone else I could see it. From a consistent defender of Trump and the brutal police tactics it seemed callous. You are NOT a homie by any stretch. Stop the hypocrisy.

[J Town]

32 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Floyd was called a gentle giant by several including his homie in the car, and I heard older ladies describing him as a good boy. Nobody was lynched...stop the theatrics.

And it WAS a lynching - a public murder of a black man. Just because a tree and rope weren't the delivery system doesn't make it any less a lynching.

[buick]

17 hours ago, ChouDoufu said:

are you sure the rookies were there first?  from what i read chauvin and his partner were the ones who removed floyd from his car.  the partner took the passenger side, chauvin the driver side.  according to that report chauvin pulled his gun, pointed it at floyd and then had him step out.

i don't think that is correct.  now the youtube video is locked, you have to have an account and for some reason they don't recognize mine anymore.  so i can't rewatch the video.  i think it was lane that pulled the gun.

 

17 hours ago, ChouDoufu said:

nice transcript! 

it is a classic.  the clerk isn't really sure what race the guy is (when asked) and if i recall correctly, wasn't sure if male or female.  plus says they are in a van.  when it is clearly an SUV.  maybe he was scared or he was high also.

17 hours ago, ChouDoufu said:

but here's the thing.  he did it for nine minutes.  at the six minute point he was informed the suspect's pulse had stopped.

 

nothing that occurred prior to that moment matters in the slightest.

i think the whole sequence (which is on youtube, pieced together with multiplle videos) tells the story and is relevant for the rookies case.  you can see the two rookies are doing their job.  until the 'kneeler' shows up.  and that is going to help the rookies in their court case.  'hey, we did our job and then this wacko guy, our training officer, showed up and took charge'.

 

the youtube video was done by the Telegraph if that helps.  the title is 'how george floyd was killed in police custody' and it is 9:31 second long.  the picture on youtube has the T emblem of the telegraph and orange boxes around the head of each rookie as they are standing with floyd (after they got him out of the SUV). 

 

 

[buick]

i got access to youtube again.  here is a screenshot of the first arrival.  you can see lane in front approaching the driver side.  all the floyd videos on youtube require accts to verify age now (at least when i try to view).  the video's narrator says it is 9 minutes into the arrest when the kneeler shows up on scene.

 

Edited June 7, 2020 by buick

[ChouDoufu]

1 hour ago, buick said:

i got access to youtube again.  here is a screenshot of the first arrival.  you can see lane in front approaching the driver side.  all the floyd videos on youtube require accts to verify age now (at least when i try to view).  the video's narrator says it is 9 minutes into the arrest when the kneeler shows up on scene.

 

 

you are correct.  i must have mis-remembered one of the articles i read.  now that we know they were rookies with just days on the job, it makes more sense that lane pulled his gun without cause.  substandard training.

 

i'll watch the videos once china stops being naughty with vpn's, hopefully later this afternoon.  in the meantime, this article lays out the sequence of events in text format.  note in particular:

 

At 8:24 p.m., the complaint notes, Floyd stopped moving. A minute later, the body camera video appears to show Floyd stopped breathing.

Lane then asks, “want to roll him on his side?”

Kueng reaches for Floyd’s right wrist to check for a pulse. “I couldn’t find one,” Kueng told the others. None of the officers moved from their positions.

For the next two minutes and 53 seconds, until 8:27:24 p.m., Chauvin keeps his knee on Floyd’s neck.

An ambulance is called and Floyd is taken to the Hennepin County Medical Center, where he is declared dead.

 

https://www.kiro7.com/news/trending/george-floyd-what-happen-last-30-minutes-his-life/KV3JWRCB6FE2DNJJFBFWVYLL3U/

 

the best the three can hope for is to be ruled incompetent.  but knowing the man had no pulse, they'll be up for at least manslaughter.

 

chauvin will do time.  i read the attorney who is prosecuting this case successfully prosecuted minnesota cop Noor for the fatal shooting of the australian woman.  noor got 12-1/2 years for 3rd degree murder and 2nd degree manslaughter.  i expect chauvin will get the full maximum sentence of 25.

 

in the noor case, the officer made a bad decision, but it could reasonably be argued in good faith.  he even attempted cpr.  there are no mitigating circumstances for chauvin.

[JimGant]

23 hours ago, connda said:

The courts aren't going to change the free pass cops have to brutalize the public.

Yeah, that free pass has to stop in the black 'hoods. Every time the cops pull over someone suspected of a crime (Michael Brown, Freddie Gray, George Floyd, ad infinitum -- all folks with criminal records) they're going to have to know that the perp's resistance to arrest will probably lead to trouble. Mace the SOB (better than a knee, if it works)? Lotta good that did with Rodney King, whose high on PCP negated the mace -- and resulted in LA burning down. Then put these thugs on pedestals as martyrs --BLACK LIVES MATTER. Huh? What a mockery to the good citizen, hard working blacks -- many who escaped the 'hood to get ahead. They know the kinda <deleted> they left behind -- their silence today, unfortunately, speaks volumes (maybe they didn't want to be accused of acting white..... Bill Cosby caught a lot of flack for telling it like it is, not that he's a stalwart anymore).

 

Anyway, like the cops did after the Freddie Gray affair, just quit policing in the 'hood. Let them mug each other, or even better, one thug shooting another -- accurately. Maybe an occasional police episode, serious enough to have the 'hood burn themselves down -- urban renewal at its finest.

 

This is not going to go away in our lifetime, if ever -- as long as unwed mothers in the 'hood keep having litters. And, by the way, who in their right mind would want to be a cop in today's environment in the inner cities. I was pretty impressed by the college credits of those Minnesota cops -- I'm afraid the next batch of rookies will be scraped from the bottom. And understandably so -- with today's black lives matter, and those of cops, not so much.

 

 

[i84teen]

9 hours ago, ChouDoufu said:

 

in the noor case, the officer made a bad decision, but it could reasonably be argued in good faith.  he even attempted cpr.  there are no mitigating circumstances for chauvin.

 Noor shot the victim in the chest from a few feet away, and the jury did not believe that he intended to kill her and convicted him of third-degree murder but acquitted him of second-degree murder.

Shooting someone in the chest is more likely to cause death than kneeling on their neck and if a jury acquitted Noor for a shooting death they could very well acquit Chauvin of 2nd degree as well.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 6/6/2020 at 6:05 PM, buick said:

i'm not sure about the kneeler's partner, he seemed to be faced the other way and didn't care much.

LOL.

He was doing his job protecting his partner's back from the mob.

[thaibeachlovers]

11 hours ago, JimGant said:

Anyway, like the cops did after the Freddie Gray affair, just quit policing in the 'hood. Let them mug each other, or even better, one thug shooting another -- accurately. Maybe an occasional police episode, serious enough to have the 'hood burn themselves down -- urban renewal at its finest.

I think that is going to happen anyway. The unions are IMO going to stop cops getting into trouble by trying to do their jobs. I think the "good" citizens in ghettos will suffer as crime runs rampant unchecked though.

It might even get to the stage of fencing off the lawless areas like in "Escape from New York" movie.

 

https://www.boston.com/news/national-news-2/2020/06/05/57-buffalo-cops-resign-from-special-squad-after-2-suspended-for-shoving-75-year-old-protester-to-the-ground

"Fifty-seven resigned in disgust because of the treatment of two of their members, who were simply executing orders," Buffalo Police Benevolent Association president John Evans told WGRZ.