TRACTORS and tractors advise

[douglasspade]

I've been in TH for more than a year permanently (lost my job then covid hit...) Farmed rice for the past 3 years with my wife on leased land and also on our own. I pay 600 Baht to plow and rake a Rai, and another 300฿ to mulch it after I mist it. I can not choose when to do this and have to rely on others. Kindof feeling slightly helpless knowing I can do it better and in my own/right time and enjoy it. I drop over 30K฿ on machine rental just to get the rice planted. Another 20K฿  flies just to get cover crop on, and another 20K฿  flies to re-establish the soil to support pasture for the rest of the year. That's 70K฿  Baht a year for an average of 60 Hours of work per year, recorded over 3 years.

I have a little Kubota B5001 to plow and mulch another 2 Rai within my village producing corn, millet, sunn hemp, Beans, pigeon peas, pumpkins, ground beans and grass. I rotate 2 crops successfully every 3 months. I also have chickens, ducks, a few cattle, and stated with fish this month but an ATV does the runaround for that.

 

I need a Tractor for handling 25 Rai of rice crop and cover crop in the monsoon season and 10 Rai of pasture, manure, baling and general mowing in the dry spell. I have reckoned on roughly 100 to 150 running hours in a mad busy year. With a small budget and not wanting to go into debt I was looking at older tractors like the Kubota L4508, is that adequately sized? They go second hand for about 250 to 300K฿? Most guys around have M series and work only 20 Rai while others have the 36 series that run 50+ Rai. Anyone can give me some ideas here?

[jvs]

Sounds like you do not need a very big tractor,if you have one that can handle the work you will be ok.

It may take you a little bit longer but you enjoy the work,so what?

People who do custom work like to do as many rai per hour they and that only makes sense.

275k divided by 70 k is somewhere near four years to break even.

If you do buy something bigger you could also do some custom work and make some money that way.

It all comes down to whether you will still be here in four years time.

 

[2 is 1]

Ok i think you not pay too much/ houer for rent!

Just don't know where you need machinery much in here. Most doing bye hand . Ok 25 rai is big area. 

Here is one machine for you.

Not tractor.

 

 

[FarFlungFalang]

1 hour ago, jvs said:

Sounds like you do not need a very big tractor,if you have one that can handle the work you will be ok.

It may take you a little bit longer but you enjoy the work,so what?

People who do custom work like to do as many rai per hour they and that only makes sense.

275k divided by 70 k is somewhere near four years to break even.

If you do buy something bigger you could also do some custom work and make some money that way.

It all comes down to whether you will still be here in four years time.

 

Don't forget the attachments there's another 300-400K baht so about 7 years to break even then if you add the 7-10 years where you don't make a profit and another life time to pay back the money you borrowed from the bank just to pay the interest good luck.

[IsaanAussie]

2 hours ago, douglasspade said:

I can not choose when to do this and have to rely on others. Kindof feeling slightly helpless knowing I can do it better

Mate, that is the issue. I have a tractor, plough, rotary and row maker that sit idle because repair and maintenance costs are higher than hiring a local to do it for me. If you really need to have your own then buy this lot of old stuff and spend on fixing it up. Total cost would be about 250k Baht.

By the way it includes a front end loader, not a grader blade

Edited August 29, 2020 by IsaanAussie

[kickstart]

3 hours ago, FarFlungFalang said:

Don't forget the attachments there's another 300-400K baht so about 7 years to break even then if you add the 7-10 years where you don't make a profit and another life time to pay back the money you borrowed from the bank just to pay the interest good luck.

I would like to know where you get 300-4400k from  for attachments ,which I take you mean ploughs and rotavators ect. way over the top ,the op only has 35 rie or 12 acres in English money .

A little 36 hp Kubota would do you well ,all you would need would be a 5 disc plough ,for the working down the corn land ,and a rotavator for the rice crop .

You could get a local guy in and do the heavy ploughing ,that could be done at almost at any time ,as soon as the rains come you go in with your equipment .

A rotavator can be brought for 35k ish ?, you could find a second hand 5 disc plough , you may be lucky and find a small second hand 3 disc plough to do the first ploughing .

And I have seen a Kubota 36hp working a baler ,no problem.

[douglasspade]

20 hours ago, IsaanAussie said:

 lot of old stuff

How old is old? What tractor is it?

[IsaanAussie]

Just now, douglasspade said:

How old is old? What tractor is it?

Iseki TS2810 circa 1985.

[douglasspade]

21 hours ago, FarFlungFalang said:

Don't forget the attachments

At Kubota Buriram the relevant attachments to the 36 series: plow will cost 28K, the rotovator 64K, and a disc harrow instead of the plow 34K. Sure I can get most of that second hand for under 100K. I will build a trailer, 3point carry all and brush hog myself, that maybe 50K.

 

There are agents that rent balers in our area for 750 per day, of course my wife will only tell me that yesterday... I was wondering why all of a sudden every guy in the village has a brand new red baler when the rice chaff needs baling... ????

[douglasspade]

10 minutes ago, IsaanAussie said:

Iseki TS2810 circa 1985.

Man that is good HP but probably no 4wheel drive? '85 is a bit old and parts for those monsters are hard to find. I had to redo my front drive for the B5001 and that already cost me 7K just in bearings, seals, oils and a dammed pinion remedied by an engineering shop! 

I got a free Zen Noh ZL2000 from my mother in law in a terrible state that I started working on but second hand/refurnished parts just cost way too much. I have abandoned it now and waiting to strip off the rear drive assembly to build a trailer.

[IsaanAussie]

Just now, douglasspade said:

Man that is good HP but probably no 4wheel drive? '85 is a bit old and parts for those monsters are hard to find.

It is 4WD. Isuzu engine. It is a large frame tractor. Seen a few "parts" only ones advertised. But I haven't checked it out, you are probably right. 

[kickstart]

5 hours ago, douglasspade said:

Man that is good HP but probably no 4wheel drive? '85 is a bit old and parts for those monsters are hard to find. I had to redo my front drive for the B5001 and that already cost me 7K just in bearings, seals, oils and a dammed pinion remedied by an engineering shop! 

I got a free Zen Noh ZL2000 from my mother in law in a terrible state that I started working on but second hand/refurnished parts just cost way too much. I have abandoned it now and waiting to strip off the rear drive assembly to build a trailer.

TS2810F is only 28 hp ,we have a few in this area the TS2210 is more popular , a good tractor to. as for spear parts ,you just need to know where to look ,we have two places in my area that will stock parts ,the main problem parts ,bearings and seals are all most  standered  parts just take the old one's and the guy just puts his callipers on measure them, and he  will give you one off the shelf.  

My Hino 18-4, 4 being 4-wheel drive, was made somewhere between 1976-1979,and I can still get parts ,the biggest headache with it is the front  wheel  UJ's s, and the sub-axle oil seals ,which need doing again 120 baht each ,the engine never a problem ,but a new set of injectors would not go a miss. 

That repair bill of 7 k sounds expensive, for such a small tractor ,and it was made the same time as my tractor ,between 1976-1979.

 

[douglasspade]

31 minutes ago, kickstart said:

That repair bill of 7 k sounds expensive, for such a small tractor

It was not just a repair job, it was a complete overhaul as the whole front axle was run with the original oils mixed with grease and dirt. Actually I was the first person to service that tractor since the tractor rolled off the floor. The hydraulic oil could not be drained, it turned into an awful smelling grease. I split the tractor to get that muck out. The original oil filter had a manufacturing date imprinted made in 1977.

Many wear and tear parts back in the day was brand oem parts that only fit that specific model. I had to do custom machine work on the axle and the bevel gear assemblies to get standard bearings to fit.

And that is why I need to be careful what I purchase, I do not want to get caught with expensive and hard to find parts in 10+ years from now, I need a late model local tractor brand with relative parts availability.

 

That said my little Kubota was build in '78, that makes us both 42 years old.

[farmerjo]

IMO a tractor can never be big enough.

So if your thinking 36hp,go with the 45.

Every model has their hiccups.(ie UJ's,hydraulics overheating,pto slipping)

My advice,head out the back of the the dealership to the workshop and pick the mechanics brains.

1st thing i would look at is the wheelbase,HP and width of rotovator your going to attach and does the rotovater have its own clutch.

[douglasspade]

6 hours ago, farmerjo said:

So if your thinking 36hp,go with the 45

Thanks for that, I am rethinking as the L3406 is just on average 50K cheaper than the L4508 looking at hours and general condition of course. That is 5K Baht per HP difference for the same year model, it is worth thinking bigger. ;If I end up leasing 10 or 20 more Rai the I might work a smaller tractor to the bone.

 

And there are bargains, here is a 45 that has 1200Hrs (+/- 72000km) with relatively good tyres, comes with a fwd dozer with a new cutting edge and a 6 disc harrow with new discs. All for 268K and the first 400km delivery is free. That harrow in that condition alone is worth 30K making the price for the tractor only around 230K.

 

[thoongfoned]

1 hour ago, douglasspade said:

Thanks for that, I am rethinking as the L3406 is just on average 50K cheaper than the L4508 looking at hours and general condition of course. That is 5K Baht per HP difference for the same year model, it is worth thinking bigger. ;If I end up leasing 10 or 20 more Rai the I might work a smaller tractor to the bone.

 

And there are bargains, here is a 45 that has 1200Hrs (+/- 72000km) with relatively good tyres, comes with a fwd dozer with a new cutting edge and a 6 disc harrow with new discs. All for 268K and the first 400km delivery is free. That harrow in that condition alone is worth 30K making the price for the tractor only around 230K.

 

all the kubota dealerships around us (there are loads) have more second hand (repo) tractors on the forecourt then new ones....

had a 47 hp one around 9/10 years ago, very good after care, spare parts everywhere and cheap to fix, even when i had to get the low loader out to pick it up.

[Dumbastheycome]

12 years back I picked up a  Kubota L3408 with  68hours  use for 360.000 Baht. It came with a trailer, plough, rotary, and row former. It now  has  987 hours on the clock and has been been used  for  some tasks  well beyond expectations . To date maintenance costs other than  infrequent  oil changes have been  two  front tyres and the  hydraulic  hoses  for the front blade. This model is renowned  for  reliability which sadly the later models  with "hydrostatic ? " transmissions  were not.

We have farmed  12  rai of  rice  and  3 rai of  tapioca every year since plus  quite a few rai of other peoples  crops and the L3408  power has  never been insufficient for that purpose.

In our  case the investment  has been great.

Since then the number of tractors  bought  by  others in the  area have increasingly tended  to be  for the  larger  models  regardless of  make but  mainly  Kubota.  The major  reason for the larger  tractors I have been told is  for  road speed  between  contract  jobs because  most  of these  buyers rely on  contract  work  to pay  for them.

I am not offering  advice on whether or  what to buy. Only that if the price is  right  for  what checks out as  good  gear then it can be to an advantage.

 

[douglasspade]

29 minutes ago, thoongfoned said:

all the kubota dealerships around us (there are loads)

Looks like every major city and in betweens got a Kubota dealership, 7/11 beware! I have not asked directly but I have heard  - off the record - repo's being bought up by specific dealers and the tractors are taken there directly ???? and only a few stay behind in the back. Out of sight out of mind I guess. I believe the repo rate might be sky high.

 

Anyway, I will make a turn there and inspect the merchandise this coming week, will let you know what I find.

 

 

[IsaanAussie]

Just now, douglasspade said:

Anyway, I will make a turn there and inspect the merchandise this coming week, will let you know what I find.

That would be interesting. When I looked last some 7 years ago, the prices being asked for slightly 2nd hand tractors seemed very high. I was told that the reason was the deals at the time for new tractors were very low deposits and a non-payment grace period, so with interest repos had high residuals owing. The terms were set so the buyer imagined he had a whole season to earn enough to pay off the first actual payment. 

That didn't happen for a lot of people around here. The tractor disappeared and the "young adults" went off to work to pay out what was needed.

Would be good to see if that has changed and you can in fact get a "deal". 

[kickstart]

We have had a Yanmar dealership open near us ,all the same stuff as Kubota, they are a few working  in the area ,seem to work well .

I would say with the present climate you could well get a good deal. 

[douglasspade]

3 hours ago, IsaanAussie said:

When I looked last some 7 years ago, the prices being asked for slightly 2nd hand tractors seemed very high. I was told that the reason was the deals at the time for new tractors were very low deposits and a non-payment grace period

You spot on, even now a new Kubota L4018 goes for 490K on their official web page and a slightly used one (500 hours) goes for 460K on Kaidee. The last advertised promotion for Kubota was July 2020, witch Google Translated of course:

Buy a Kubota tractor today. Used before next year's installment
Select a small installment of January 2021 or a large installment of December 2021.

That will allow you to use the equipment until you can pay, as you call it a 'grace-period' of 6 months or 18 Months. Hard to beat that!

Source site https://www.108engine.com/Tractor-Promotion/ has all the promotions up to date for most tractor brands. Some interesting stuff on that site.

[IsaanAussie]

Just now, kickstart said:

We have had a Yanmar dealership open near us ,all the same stuff as Kubota, they are a few working  in the area ,seem to work well .

I would say with the present climate you could well get a good deal. 

Yanmar (with their John Deere affiliation) used to be visible just looking at the front end of the tractors compared to Kubota options, much more solid. Kubota leads with their financial department and their investment here in Thailand in both local part sourcing and assembly plants. But for me, a new tractor would be a Yanmar.

[douglasspade]

44 minutes ago, kickstart said:

I would say with the present climate you could well get a good deal.

Indeed the climate and the covid, seems there more people who "need" to part with their hard earned property than before. Sad.

[douglasspade]

48 minutes ago, IsaanAussie said:

But for me, a new tractor would be a Yanmar.

I'd love a New Holland TC48R Plus, but as a farmer I must think like a businessman. Yanmar, Kubota and Iseki are the manufactures to go for in Thailand. Although I agree Kubota by far owns the monopoly.

[douglasspade]

6 hours ago, Dumbastheycome said:

It now  has  987 hours on the clock and has been been used  for  some tasks  well beyond expectations

That is 76,5 hours of work per year, pretty well done. With 987 hours on the clock I would consider your tractor to have many years of service to follow.

 

I expected the contract work prices in my village would have dropped by now as so many guys own tractors, but so far not. Big new tractors moving a few Baht's worth of grass running daily. Spending so much fuel, wear and hours it's justt not viable in my eyes.

My mother in law feeds 8 cattle with just a scooter and a 10 year old trolley.

 

Hydro-static transmission is also not for me, hence I am looking for a manual tractor specifically even if it is an older model like the 45 or 34 series.

I am cautious, this investment can either make or break me, so I follow up on any hints even if it not actual advise.

 

[Grumpy John]

What you can buy new at the dealership is basically the same tractor the Europeans where buying in the 1980's.  Not saying the new you beaut tractors from the big players are inferior, just older technology.  There are plenty of Kubotas, Yanmars and Isekis around here with the Iseki brand being the minor player.  Plus a lonesome Flord...I mean New Holland and a 6600 the earthmoving guy owns.

 

Got 25 rai of rice...don't even consider a tractor S/H or new.  It will never pay for itself.

[Nirandon]

Hi guys any parts required please give us a call ,Kubota , yanmar , John Deere , New Holland , Ford , Dc, Rotary ,  plough , 0903472366  0986562962

 

 

Edited September 1, 2020 by Nirandon

[douglasspade]

6 hours ago, Grumpy John said:

Got 25 rai of rice...don't even consider a tractor S/H or new.  It will never pay for itself.

Recap:

I pay 70K Baht yearly for about 60Hrs of shoddy tractor work done. (Although rethinking it might be half those hours!)

If in Five years at a cost of 350K Baht with 300 Hrs of work done, how is that not viable to buy a tractor in the 250K Range with lower hours as advertised? Why will the investment not return?

 

I will also work land for my mom in law and some family in the nearby village when and if needed. This may  reduce my investment period dramatically.

 

Besides at 40 jrs old I have another 20 jrs to earn it back, knock wood!

[kickstart]

7 hours ago, Grumpy John said:

What you can buy new at the dealership is basically the same tractor the Europeans where buying in the 1980's.  Not saying the new you beaut tractors from the big players are inferior, just older technology.  There are plenty of Kubotas, Yanmars and Isekis around here with the Iseki brand being the minor player.  Plus a lonesome Flord...I mean New Holland and a 6600 the earthmoving guy owns.

 

Got 25 rai of rice...don't even consider a tractor S/H or new.  It will never pay for itself.

And that is how it should be here in Thailand, older technology ,can you Imagen a European or USA tractor ,all singing and dancing does every thing bar make tea, more chips in it than Harry Ramsden ever made (Harry Ramsden is a very well known owner of a chain of fish and chip shops in the UK), and here in Thailand with the lack of maintenance 

One of these modern tractors goes wrong can a Thai mechanic fix it ,and will the owner face an X,000baht  repair bill.

Keep the job simple ,my 40-year-old tractor  and a lot lot  more ,does the job ,a local guy, a one man band can fix it, like the clutch thrust bearing sized  up, he split the tractor took the clutch apart,  cleaned it all up ,job done 1000 baht.  

[thoongfoned]

14 hours ago, douglasspade said:

Recap:

I pay 70K Baht yearly for about 60Hrs of shoddy tractor work done. (Although rethinking it might be half those hours!)

If in Five years at a cost of 350K Baht with 300 Hrs of work done, how is that not viable to buy a tractor in the 250K Range with lower hours as advertised? Why will the investment not return?

 

I will also work land for my mom in law and some family in the nearby village when and if needed. This may  reduce my investment period dramatically.

 

Besides at 40 jrs old I have another 20 jrs to earn it back, knock wood!

even after x amount of years/hours you will still have the machine too sell on again..

the main reason why i bought a tractor was the crazy quotes we were getting for work that needed to be done...

back when i was a student picking apples ect every summer one or two farms would have tractors still working at well over 50/60 years of age.