France's Le Drian blames Britain's 'attitude' for Brexit talks impasse

[Loiner]

26 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

So basically you live life in an echo chamber...

No, he’s living in his safe space.

 

Kind of one man cancelling. Not quite no-platforming as there are plenty of copies out there, but ‘if a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it’ situation. 

[david555]

26 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Boris was referring to the Withdrawal Agreement. That is done and dusted. This topic is about future trading arrangements. 

Seems you don't like to become remembered to his promises ….lies , quick wipe it under the carpet !..  LOL

 

About future  trading arrangement ….. forget that until first quarter of 2021 as E.U. letting the Brexit Gov. first experience  the facts in a Brexit reality happening .

 

As Barnier already refuse fish talks now , and 1 October is last possible date in E.U. 27 members timing, as  their member country's local parliaments need voting  !...… Strange.....? As they are not being a democracy (called so by brexiteers….)  And still they  vote ….27 country's …? ????

Edited September 1, 2020 by david555

[from the home of CC]

imo  the EU and the UK are both going to lose and the timing couldn't be worse.. 

[david555]

11 minutes ago, from the home of CC said:

imo  the EU and the UK are both going to lose and the timing couldn't be worse.. 

As said from the beginning ….., but E.U. like more to loose 20% than give in  to a leaving camp  and so let them  destroy their union complete 

As for Brexit camp …." count your cattle " so you remember what you have now , for later "remembrances" ..????

Edited September 1, 2020 by david555

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, RayC said:

Don't you think that this is a major oversight and is simply another example of the lack of preparation by the UK for these negotiations?

 

That is because we were members of the EU and it would need Treaty change to allow this to happen.

 

Rather than the EU being unreasonable, this is another example of the UK expecting the EU to rewrite Treaties, Regulations and Directives for the benefit of the UK when it is no longer a member. 

Yes, an oversight, perhaps. It's also just another example of the stranglehold that the EU has over its members, especially those who are trying to leave. These things are rarely considered when joining something  that was initially described as a "common market".  It has all become more difficult to deal with after the rules were expanded and changed through a succession of treaties, which tie up members in a great ball of a granny knot. I suppose leavers and remainers can all see what a mess this is now. For me, speaking as a mere shepherd, I'm more convinced than ever that it's way past time to get the flock out.

Edited September 1, 2020 by nauseus

[CG1 Blue]

50 minutes ago, david555 said:

Seems you don't like to become remembered to his promises ….lies , quick wipe it under the carpet !..  LOL

 

About future  trading arrangement ….. forget that until first quarter of 2021 as E.U. letting the Brexit Gov. first experience  the facts in a Brexit reality happening .

 

As Barnier already refuse fish talks now , and 1 October is last possible date in E.U. 27 members timing, as  their member country's local parliaments need voting  !...… Strange.....? As they are not being a democracy (called so by brexiteers….)  And still they  vote ….27 country's …? ????

I was correcting an earlier poster who thought the 'oven ready deal' slogan was about future trading arrangements, when in fact it was about the WA only. I didn't wipe anything under the carpet. 

 

[OneMoreFarang]

2 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

So basically you live life in an echo chamber...

I see their front pages from time to time. That is more than enough "information".

I also don't look Fox "News" and I don't think I missed anything important.

[Loiner]

38 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I see their front pages from time to time. That is more than enough "information".

I also don't look Fox "News" and I don't think I missed anything important.

Think you missed your way. Certainly missed the mood of the nation’s real folk. 

[OneMoreFarang]

4 minutes ago, Loiner said:

the nation’s real folk

Yeah, sure. Something like this?

 

[evadgib]

I couldn't help noticing that former OZ PM Tony Abbot has been enlisted as a trade negotiator by the Tories. Ol' Thornbury is in full 'fire and brimstone' mode which is an added bonus....????

Edited September 1, 2020 by evadgib

[herfiehandbag]

23 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Let's look how you and all the other people in Great Britain feel when the s$% hits the fan and the economy goes down, DOWN. Don't say nobody warned you.

 

 

9 hours ago, nauseus said:

What a fearful thing to say!

Modern history (the last century) has plenty of examples of assorted Germans predicting doom and gloom for "little England" if it didn't do what they wanted. 

[Loiner]

21 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Yeah, sure. Something like this?

 

Sure.  Looks fun. Wish we had enough warm weather for the girls to get into bikinis. 

 

You sound like you feel superior to these people or something. GUess what, your vote is worth no more than theirs, and guess who will return Donald for a second term? You can make another snide post, with another video after that if you want. 

[evadgib]

10 minutes ago, Loiner said:

Sure.  Looks fun. Wish we had enough warm weather for the girls to get into bikinis. 

 

You sound like you feel superior to these people or something. GUess what, your vote is worth no more than theirs, and guess who will return Donald for a second term? You can make another snide post, with another video after that if you want. 

Ponti's have no vote.

[RayC]

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

Yes, an oversight, perhaps. It's also just another example of the stranglehold that the EU has over its members, especially those who are trying to leave. These things are rarely considered when joining something  that was initially described as a "common market".  It has all become more difficult to deal with after the rules were expanded and changed through a succession of treaties, which tie up members in a great ball of a granny knot. I suppose leavers and remainers can all see what a mess this is now. For me, speaking as a mere shepherd, I'm more convinced than ever that it's way past time to get the flock out.

There is no doubt that the EU today is markedly different from the EEC of 1975. It is to be expected. All organisations evolve; if they don't they cease to exist. However, EU Treaty change requires unanimity amongst the members. If the UK was dead set against a particular change it could have blocked it.

 

However, my main point was that the UK was, and is still is, woefully unprepared for the negotiations. This lack of preparation has nothing to do with the EU. Being generous, one might excuse some initial chaos but it is now 4 years since the referendum, and the UK still doesn't seem to have any semblance of a plan for its' place in the world post-transition.

[Rookiescot]

5 minutes ago, RayC said:

There is no doubt that the EU today is markedly different from the EEC of 1975. It is to be expected. All organisations evolve; if they don't they cease to exist. However, EU Treaty change requires unanimity amongst the members. If the UK was dead set against a particular change it could have blocked it.

 

However, my main point was that the UK was, and is still is, woefully unprepared for the negotiations. This lack of preparation has nothing to do with the EU. Being generous, one might excuse some initial chaos but it is now 4 years since the referendum, and the UK still doesn't seem to have any semblance of a plan for its' place in the world post-transition.

Brexit is already done. There are no negotiations because Brexiteers went for a win or bust.

The EU has (rightly) refused to capitulate to the demands made by them. The EU cant. What Brexiteers demand is all the benefits of being in the EU without having to compromise anything. If the EU complied with that then there would be no EU as every nation would want the same.

Look at fishing? On a GDP level its a none event but for Brexiteers it has become a totem of everything evil about the EU.

Hell mend them. This is what they wanted. Its what they voted for.

 

Now the UK will have to start dealing with what they did and its not going to be pretty.  

[welovesundaysatspace]

7 hours ago, Loiner said:

These are trade negotiations between the UK and EU. There are no other external factors, just the two participants. 

A negotiation obviously is with someone external; you don’t need to negotiate with yourself. The EU is an external factor to the UK and vice versa. So if the UK blames the EU for not getting a trade deal, then the UK is admitting that it did a bad job in planning (or a bad decision in the first place). 
 

And yes, the same holds true for any other issue that involve the actions of external factors. Whether it’s a FTA negotiation, a salary negotiation, a product development, or a pandemic. Being in charge means anticipating and managing external factors, not letting it happen and then blaming what was your job to manage. 

 

Quote

Maybe it's because they are the one's who kept us on the hook with a transition period because they needed our ongoing contributions and thought they could continue trying to fool us into a BRINO. Well that's not happening.

You gotta do your homework. The EU can’t keep anyone “on the hook with a transition period”. That was the UK’s decision. 
 

 

 

Edited September 1, 2020 by welovesundaysatspace

[Loiner]

22 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

However, my main point was that the UK was, and is still is, woefully unprepared for the negotiations. This lack of preparation has nothing to do with the EU. Being generous, one might excuse some initial chaos but it is now 4 years since the referendum, and the UK still doesn't seem to have any semblance of a plan for its' place in the world post-transition.

How do you know all this? Were you part of the preparations or have you been part of the negotiations? Perhaps the govt reports to you everything they are doing and future plans? Maybe the plan always was to get out without capitulation in any sort of an EU capitulating deal?

[welovesundaysatspace]

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

 It's also just another example of the stranglehold that the EU has over its members, especially those who are trying to leave. (...) which tie up members in a great ball of a granny knot.

That’s not a nice way of saying “I got used to all the benefits but I want them for half the price now”. Fact is, members are free to leave anytime they want, but they’ll have to find a new gym or a replacement for the amenities themselves when they want to “take back control” and be “sovereign”. 

[david555]

28 minutes ago, RayC said:

There is no doubt that the EU today is markedly different from the EEC of 1975. It is to be expected. All organisations evolve; if they don't they cease to exist. However, EU Treaty change requires unanimity amongst the members. If the UK was dead set against a particular change it could have blocked it.

 

However, my main point was that the UK was, and is still is, woefully unprepared for the negotiations. This lack of preparation has nothing to do with the EU. Being generous, one might excuse some initial chaos but it is now 4 years since the referendum, and the UK still doesn't seem to have any semblance of a plan for its' place in the world post-transition.

Because from the beginning they where convinced the E.U. would roll over flat belly and give in on all their cherry wishes , and now they doubt , but still HOPE !

 

A responsible PM would started already the needed , but Boris is just fighting for his own cause and popularity …..which is on decline now 

[Loiner]

14 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

Look at fishing? On a GDP level its a none event but for Brexiteers it has become a totem of everything evil about the EU.

Hell mend them. This is what they wanted. Its what they voted for.

 

 

Actually the fishing is more of an EU totem. Macron cant afford to be seen to concede on it, so Barnier has to hold that position. That's why he's now sticking to his 'parallelism' policy. Keep going M. Barnier - we'll have our No Deal exit yet.

 

[david555]

Brexit trade deal: Who really owns UK fishing quotas?

https://www.bbc.com/news/52420116

Foreign companies own the rights to catch more than 130,000 tonnes of fish every year that are part of England's fishing quota, BBC research has revealed.

More than £160m worth of the English quota is in the hands of vessels owned by companies based in Iceland, Spain and the Netherlands, thanks to a practice known as "quota-hopping".

That amounts to 55% of the quota's annual value in 2019.

Taking back control of UK fishing waters was a key issue for many Brexit supporters.

But with fishing still an obstacle in the UK's trade talks with the European Union, the figures raise questions about what taking back control will actually mean.

 

Edited September 1, 2020 by david555

[RayC]

2 hours ago, Loiner said:

How do you know all this? Were you part of the preparations or have you been part of the negotiations? Perhaps the govt reports to you everything they are doing and future plans?

So your defence of this debacle is that you trust what the government is saying which amounts to: "Move along now. Nothing to see here. Everything's good"? 

 

I am not as trusting or seemingly gullible as you. I'd like the government which represents me to be able to give an outline its plans for its term in office. This one hasn't and seemingly can't.

 

Quote

 

Maybe the plan always was to get out without capitulation in any sort of an EU capitulating deal?

And that's it? We leave the EU and then what? Puff ... magically everything falls into place? What's the backup plan in the unlikely event that that doesn't work? We all close our eyes and wish really, really, really hard that the UK becomes a happier, healthier and wealthier place?

Edited September 1, 2020 by RayC
Missing word

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, RayC said:

There is no doubt that the EU today is markedly different from the EEC of 1975. It is to be expected. All organisations evolve; if they don't they cease to exist. However, EU Treaty change requires unanimity amongst the members. If the UK was dead set against a particular change it could have blocked it.

 

However, my main point was that the UK was, and is still is, woefully unprepared for the negotiations. This lack of preparation has nothing to do with the EU. Being generous, one might excuse some initial chaos but it is now 4 years since the referendum, and the UK still doesn't seem to have any semblance of a plan for its' place in the world post-transition.

Well that's all easy to say. But the EEC in 1975 was what the remain voters in the referendum of that year voted to stay with. These voters were not made well aware of the  consequences of subsequent mutations (treaties). I have said so often that voting for the EU is not the same as voting for the status quo. All of the more recent treaty decisions were never offered to the UK electorate, via referenda, in the UK; pro EU governments played this subject down (or lied) at election times. 

 

I agree we are unprepared but despite the EU rhetoric I don't think they are either. Yes, four years since the referendum but who would expect an easy-out from an EU which assumes to dictate all the rules and sequencing of negotiations and an EU that risks imploding if the UK exit is successful?

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Victornoir said:

Mr Le Drian expresses in covered words an opinion widely shared in France:

“The British are unreliable, they are the boot of the USA and an embarrassment for the unity of the Europeans. Their subcontracting to the Japanese automobile industry competes harshly with our own production. Otherwise their importation of French products is relatively low"

Better a no deal divorce but without shouting it too loudly to avoid offending the fishermen.

And with clever legal constraints the odds are great to appropriate a large chunk of their juicy financial services industry for free.

The ultimate pot calling kettle post. ????

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

That’s not a nice way of saying “I got used to all the benefits but I want them for half the price now”. Fact is, members are free to leave anytime they want, but they’ll have to find a new gym or a replacement for the amenities themselves when they want to “take back control” and be “sovereign”. 

Benefits? Like a 70 billion trade deficit and some horrible sculptures?

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

A negotiation obviously is with someone external; you don’t need to negotiate with yourself. The EU is an external factor to the UK and vice versa. So if the UK blames the EU for not getting a trade deal, then the UK is admitting that it did a bad job in planning (or a bad decision in the first place). 
 

And yes, the same holds true for any other issue that involve the actions of external factors. Whether it’s a FTA negotiation, a salary negotiation, a product development, or a pandemic. Being in charge means anticipating and managing external factors, not letting it happen and then blaming what was your job to manage. 

 

You gotta do your homework. The EU can’t keep anyone “on the hook with a transition period”. That was the UK’s decision. 
 

 

 

It was the EU's decision and they agreed to it far too quickly.

[Nigel Garvie]

21 minutes ago, RayC said:

So your defence of this debacle is that you trust what the government is saying which amounts to: "Move along now. Nothing to see here. Everything's good"? 

 

I am not as trusting or seemingly gullible as you. I'd like the government which represents me to be able to give an outline its plans for its term in office. This one hasn't and seemingly can't.

 

And that's it? We leave the EU and then what? Puff ... magically everything falls into place? What's the backup plan in the unlikely event that that doesn't work? We all close our eyes and wish really, really, really hard that the UK becomes a happier, healthier and wealthier place?

It really is worrying, if Boris and his Brexiteer cabinet had shown themselves to be well organised, competent leaders, skilful negotiators, etc we would have been surprised but at least relieved. The reality - as perfectly illustrated by the mind numbingly incompetent, slow car crash littered with U turns, of the Covid response - is that headless chickens would have been a better bet for the job. 

 

We may never know what Dominic Cummings (The UK's answer to Rasputin) has over Boris, but I cannot help thinking that the the UK has never been serious about these negotiations, although Boris may not actually know what he wants, apart from being PM. 

 

Is it unreasonable for the EU to want us to adhere to the same standards regarding goods quality/safety, and employment law etc, as they do, if we want free trade access to their market. Why invite us to undercut them by having the freedom to lower our standards. I would have thought it was just common sense. 

[candide]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

Well that's all easy to say. But the EEC in 1975 was what the remain voters in the referendum of that year voted to stay with. These voters were not made well aware of the  consequences of subsequent mutations (treaties). I have said so often that voting for the EU is not the same as voting for the status quo. All of the more recent treaty decisions were never offered to the UK electorate, via referenda, in the UK; pro EU governments played this subject down (or lied) at election times. 

 

I agree we are unprepared but despite the EU rhetoric I don't think they are either. Yes, four years since the referendum but who would expect an easy-out from an EU which assumes to dictate all the rules and sequencing of negotiations and an EU that risks imploding if the UK exit is successful?

I agree with you that, after numerous years of membership and contribution to the design of the current EU, UK politicians could not be unaware of the likely behaviour of the EU.

What is a bit more annoying is that it's not at all what has been promised...

https://www.buzzfeed.com/patricksmith/nobody-said-it-was-easy

Edited September 1, 2020 by candide

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Is it unreasonable for the EU to want us to adhere to the same standards regarding goods quality/safety, and employment law etc, as they do, if we want free trade access to their market. Why invite us to undercut them by having the freedom to lower our standards. I would have thought it was just common sense. 

In my understanding the majority of UK subjects wished to leave the EU because of it's IMO barking policy on illegal immigration. All the huffing and puffing about trade does not change that.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 hours ago, RayC said:

And that's it? We leave the EU and then what? Puff ... magically everything falls into place? What's the backup plan in the unlikely event that that doesn't work?

When the UK joined the common market they stabbed NZ in the back and almost destroyed it. NZ had to make severe adjustments to survive, which it did, but no thanks to Britain.

I'm sure Britain will do whatever it has to to survive outside the EU; after all, if a sparsely populated country like NZ can do it surely Britain can, and if it becomes less attractive to the illegals than it worked.