UK minister surprised by Scottish independence referendum move

[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

So when is the referendum then? And how can you be gone if you haven't had the referendum yet? 

If, as predicted, the SNP get an overall majority in the Holyrood elections next year and exceed 50% of the vote, how should Johnson respond, or in your opinion, should he ignore it and carry on as before? 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

You keep putting these Scottish polls up whilst doing the Gay Gordons and saying look how far we are now in front Dr Findlay, so they mean something, while a poll that goes againgst your opinion bares no merit what-so-ever.

Top and bottom of it rookie is that you can take that poll as you wish, up to you, I know it must have come as a dissapointment to you, but you win some and you lose some. Sweet dreams.????

Janet! Git yer bits out ma porridge!  ????

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

If, as predicted, the SNP get an overall majority in the Holyrood elections next year and exceed 50% of the vote, how should Johnson respond, or in your opinion, should he ignore it and carry on as before? 

If there is clear evidence that the majority of Scots want independence, the UK gov shouldn't ignore it. If it were me in charge I'd approve a 2nd indy ref on that basis.

 

But I'd want it to be once the Brexit transition period has ended and the Scottish public have had the chance to weigh up the real impact of Brexit, not the predicted impact being blurted out by die hard remainers. That's a fair way to handle it IMO. 

[RuamRudy]

15 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

If there is clear evidence that the majority of Scots want independence, the UK gov shouldn't ignore it. If it were me in charge I'd approve a 2nd indy ref on that basis.

 

But I'd want it to be once the Brexit transition period has ended and the Scottish public have had the chance to weigh up the real impact of Brexit, not the predicted impact being blurted out by die hard remainers. That's a fair way to handle it IMO. 

Is the transition period actually defined? I don't seek to be obtuse, but I wonder how you would define the end of Brexit. 

[CG1 Blue]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Is the transition period actually defined? I don't seek to be obtuse, but I wonder how you would define the end of Brexit. 

Yes, the transition period ends on 31st Dec 2020. So on Jan 1st 2021 we're out-out. Either with or without a trade deal with the EU. 

 

So maybe a June 2021 indy ref would be about right, assuming the appetite for one is still there with the Scottish public. I just think this is sensible, so the people have had a chance to understand what a post-EU UK looks like. 

[talahtnut]

I support an English referendum to chuck Scotland out.

[kingdong]

9 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Vogie. We are gone. Get used to it. Its not a question of if its a question of when. And the longer Johnson keeps kicking that can down the ally the larger support will become and the less likely Westminster can turn it around.

By the way there is no way to prevent an independent Scotland from using the pound. Its a fully tradable fiat currency. So the poll was utterly flawed from the start.

unless a condition in you joining the eu is you join the euro.

[shdmn]

I can't think of a better F U to the brexiters than to cause Scotland to separate.

Edited September 18, 2020 by shdmn

[Rookiescot]

22 minutes ago, kingdong said:

unless a condition in you joining the eu is you join the euro.

A valid point. We do not know the terms and conditions that will apply if we ask to rejoin the EU.

If they are radically different to those we enjoyed while part of the UK Scotland might reject the idea.

[Rookiescot]

22 minutes ago, shdmn said:

I can't think of a better F U to the brexiters than to cause Scotland to separate.

Independence is about whats best for Scotland.

It is not a tool to be used to bash Brexiteers.

[shdmn]

7 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Independence is about whats best for Scotland.

It is not a tool to be used to bash Brexiteers.

It is what it is.  You can spin it anyway you want.  Doesn't change anything.

Edited September 19, 2020 by shdmn

[kingdong]

30 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

A valid point. We do not know the terms and conditions that will apply if we ask to rejoin the EU.

If they are radically different to those we enjoyed while part of the UK Scotland might reject the idea.

think they,ll do scotland any favours after you left?they,ll be too worried about the other 26 nations wanting to have it on their toes,do try and look ahead.

Edited September 19, 2020 by kingdong

[Rookiescot]

2 minutes ago, kingdong said:

think they,ll do scotland any favours after you left?they,ll be too worried about the other 26 nations wanting t have it on their toes,do try and look ahead.

But all those fishing waters. Which according to you Brexiteers is a sword of Damocles hanging over the EU's neck.

They need us more than we need them. German haggis fans. Easiest deal in history etc etc etc. 

[kingdong]

31 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

A valid point. We do not know the terms and conditions that will apply if we ask to rejoin the EU.

If they are radically different to those we enjoyed while part of the UK Scotland might reject the idea.

 

32 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

A valid point. We do not know the terms and conditions that will apply if we ask to rejoin the EU.

If they are radically different to those we enjoyed while part of the UK Scotland might reject the idea.

be too late then you,d have <deleted> your bed and will have to !ie in it,bit of advice,when you jump 3 foot over a fence,make sure theres not a 90 foot drop on the other side of it.

[kingdong]

6 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

But all those fishing waters. Which according to you Brexiteers is a sword of Damocles hanging over the EU's neck.

They need us more than we need them. German haggis fans. Easiest deal in history etc etc etc. 

deflection.

[RuamRudy]

52 minutes ago, kingdong said:

think they,ll do scotland any favours after you left?they,ll be too worried about the other 26 nations wanting to have it on their toes,do try and look ahead.

But we didn't leave. As we are frequently reminded, Scotland was not an EU member. It was dragged out against its very clear wishes when England and Wales decided the rest of the UK had to do what they chose.

 

I have no doubt that the EU will be very happy to allow an already very aligned new member to come into the fold on very reasonable terms. 

 

That said, it will be up to the people of Scotland to decide how they wish their future ties with the EU to look. 

[Rookiescot]

45 minutes ago, kingdong said:

 

be too late then you,d have <deleted> your bed and will have to !ie in it,bit of advice,when you jump 3 foot over a fence,make sure theres not a 90 foot drop on the other side of it.

Yeah because you applied that logic to Brexit didnt you.

Difference is with independence we will know what the consequences are. There is only one form of independence.  

[crobe]

19 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

But we didn't leave. As we are frequently reminded, Scotland was not an EU member. It was dragged out against its very clear wishes when England and Wales decided the rest of the UK had to do what they chose.

 

I have no doubt that the EU will be very happy to allow an already very aligned new member to come into the fold on very reasonable terms. 

 

That said, it will be up to the people of Scotland to decide how they wish their future ties with the EU to look. 

To be serious for a moment

If the Scots were to vote for independence and seek to rejoin the EU then there would be some specific issues

 - The British fishing waters are 62% Scottish under maritime law and the EU would seek access to these waters under any new accession deal, just as they did in the 1970s with the UK. This would probably not be a problem for Scotland if the catch is landed in Scotland as the major market for sea-fish is to Europe. The other world markets are mainly for salmon etc.

  - The EU may insist on Scotland adopting the Euro - however, again this may not be a problem as the trade-off between the Euro and the pound is not now clear post brexit - the value of sterling may be hit more than the Euro

 - Edinburgh may have a good case to become a major financial centre if the UK loses passporting rights - Edinburgh may be preferable to some institutions rather than relocating to Dublin, Frankfurt or Paris

 - A lot of other companies based in the UK may also seek to have a "head office" in Scotland for access to the EU markets - including airlines etc.

 - The main headache will be the trade border - similar to the issue with Ireland but without the threat of the Troubles returning - the main problem will be stopping goods traveling into Scotland from England to take advantage of no tariffs if there is not a free trade deal between the EU and the UK. Scotland may have to impose import duties on goods coming in from England which will be difficult to police

[Rookiescot]

12 minutes ago, crobe said:

To be serious for a moment

If the Scots were to vote for independence and seek to rejoin the EU then there would be some specific issues

 - The British fishing waters are 62% Scottish under maritime law and the EU would seek access to these waters under any new accession deal, just as they did in the 1970s with the UK. This would probably not be a problem for Scotland if the catch is landed in Scotland as the major market for sea-fish is to Europe. The other world markets are mainly for salmon etc.

  - The EU may insist on Scotland adopting the Euro - however, again this may not be a problem as the trade-off between the Euro and the pound is not now clear post brexit - the value of sterling may be hit more than the Euro

 - Edinburgh may have a good case to become a major financial centre if the UK loses passporting rights - Edinburgh may be preferable to some institutions rather than relocating to Dublin, Frankfurt or Paris

 - A lot of other companies based in the UK may also seek to have a "head office" in Scotland for access to the EU markets - including airlines etc.

 - The main headache will be the trade border - similar to the issue with Ireland but without the threat of the Troubles returning - the main problem will be stopping goods traveling into Scotland from England to take advantage of no tariffs if there is not a free trade deal between the EU and the UK. Scotland may have to impose import duties on goods coming in from England which will be difficult to police

Why would Scotland be unique in having difficulties controlling its borders?

Other countries seem to manage. 

[RuamRudy]

29 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Why would Scotland be unique in having difficulties controlling its borders?

Other countries seem to manage. 

Canada and the US being a very clear example of it working on a massive scale without major issues.

[Rookiescot]

30 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Canada and the US being a very clear example of it working on a massive scale without major issues.

And such an argument relies on England not being able to control its side of the border.

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

But we didn't leave. As we are frequently reminded, Scotland was not an EU member. It was dragged out against its very clear wishes when England and Wales decided the rest of the UK had to do what they chose.

 

I have no doubt that the EU will be very happy to allow an already very aligned new member to come into the fold on very reasonable terms. 

 

That said, it will be up to the people of Scotland to decide how they wish their future ties with the EU to look. 

If the EU maintained "reasonable terms" then there probably wouldn't be a Brexit debate.

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Why would Scotland be unique in having difficulties controlling its borders?

Other countries seem to manage. 

Other countries manage because they are not obsessed with their own customs and market rules.

[RuamRudy]

23 minutes ago, nauseus said:

If the EU maintained "reasonable terms" then there probably wouldn't be a Brexit debate.

Straight back at you with the UK...

[izod10]

scotland do not have a hope in hell of quitting the UK,and more so joining the EU,not a hope in hell      Wish they would though

[nauseus]

29 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Straight back at you with the UK...

That really doesn't work - during our membership the EU never had to accept any UK "terms" - one way traffic. 

[evadgib]

6 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

But we didn't leave. As we are frequently reminded, Scotland was not an EU member. It was dragged out against its very clear wishes when England and Wales decided the rest of the UK had to do what they chose.

???????? were alone in being asked and ???????? decided to LEAVE.

[RuamRudy]

15 minutes ago, evadgib said:

???????? were alone in being asked and ???????? decided to LEAVE.

But when the UK is comprised of 85% English voters, the other countries in the Union need not bother to vote as their choices will be irrelevant. 

[evadgib]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

But when the UK is comprised of 85% English voters, the other countries in the Union need not bother to vote as their choices will be irrelevant. 

You were silent when SNP secured 56 seats at Westminster with just 1.5M votes while Ferage secured buggerall despite 4M votes though eh?

You want your shortbread and to eat it RR.

Edited September 19, 2020 by evadgib

[RuamRudy]

46 minutes ago, evadgib said:

You were silent when SNP secured 56 seats at Westminster with just 1.5M votes while Ferage secured buggerall despite 4M votes though eh?

You want your shortbread and to eat it RR.

It wasn't the SNP which campaigned for FPTP; that it benefits them is, of course, unintended - the Nasty Party and Labour thought that they would benefit all across the UK, not just in England.

 

I don't want my shortbread - I want shot of the whole, stinking corrupt system that you love and support so dearly. You seem eminently happy to have your pockets rifled and your kids' futures blighted; democracy says you should be entitled to that if it is what the majority of your country wants. It is well over half a century since my country last voted for that yet we are still forced to endure it.