Pattaya: Grim picture for future of resort as post pandemic optimism dries up

[rumak]

OK........ we're ready to stop this madness !  

 

"Hombre,   Pattaya  yuu nai ?    "

 

"where are they hiding the ladies ???? "

 

[Grusa]

43 minutes ago, GAZZPA said:

I can kind of understand what you are saying. Am I jealous, do I want to be in dead, run down seaside resort in a developing country, erm, no... The issue for most people is they didn't settle in Pattaya for a sleepy seaside lifestyle, they went there for it's bars, nightlife, ladies, food etc, so maybe ok for you but for the majority it won't be. Also if it keeps going downhill it will effect your quality of life because poor facilities, lack of choice, no money etc. As I said there will be retirees who are on a secure pension who won't care that it is quiet as a church graveyard but for most it is a disaster.

We did not. We decided to retire to Thailand, 13 years ago, for many reasons, too long a story for here. So, why Pattaya?

SWMBO preferred Chiang Mai, but on previous visits was intolerable for much of the year because we both have allergies, and nothing has improved since. Points North, same same.

So, Phuket, Koh Chang, Samui, Trat, Trang, etc.? Same or similar allergy problems.

Bangkok? not a chance, hate cities, too hot, too congested, too polluted.

Pattaya? We knew lots of people, language not a problem, everything we need easily available.

Sex? Bars? Walking Street? Scams? Karaoke? Tourists various? Pervs and Mongers? Yes we know about them, we even take our visitors to see them if it floats their boats.......but mostly we don't even see any of it.

The recent lack of traffic, especially garish and ghastly tour buses, has made the place heaven again, just like 30 years ago but without the supply chain problems!

I know something has to give soon, but meanwhile.....enjoy.

I do take your point about pensions, the only truly worrying fly in the ointment!

[GAZZPA]

2 minutes ago, newnative said:

   Exactly.  I read his list of reasons expats settle in Pattaya--I think it was bars, ladies, nightlife, and food--and only food would have made my list of reasons.  (My list has boring things like good health care at a reasonable cost and nice year-round weather.)  I suspect that is true for some other expats living here, as well.  And, for those expats who would list the other 3, they will likely always be available, too. 

Tis true, but there are not enough of you. For me when I retire, Portugal, Greece or South of France are my go to places. Better weather than Thailand, better food (I think), better scenery (better than Pattaya anyway) much more developed and of course world class healthcare. Pattaya did not grow on the back of the silver surfer brigade unfortunately, Benidorm it aint. 

[JaneM]

28 minutes ago, GAZZPA said:

Nonsense, it is not the first global pandemic, it wont be the last.. History tells us it dies out, we survive and move on,, you have a very doom and gloom attitude, history is the best teacher,, except for you obviously.????

When you think this pandemic is the same as others before, than you haven't been paying much attention. Never in history (the best teacher according to your knowledge) has there been a lockdown for so many people. Never in history have been so many people out of a job because of a "virus" (it's not, but that's another discussion). Never in history did almost all governments work together to destroy their own economies. Never in history said the western world: 'We have to look at China and follow their method of lockdowns and quarantine of whole cities'. Never in history was there so much financial gain to make from a forced vaccine, and I could go on and on...If you still think this is the same as all other pandemics before, you don't know sh*t about history. 

[Oldie]

12 minutes ago, rexall said:

The Chinese tourists were Thailand's wet dream!  They arrive in groups, stay in the same hotel, travel in the same coach, stopping to spend money here and there. In a week or two they go home. Minimal contamination of or interaction with the Thai culture. No chance of them hanging around or wanting to live here. The only thing more sexy would be to find some diabolical way to get the  money without having to have the tourists!

The situation was the opposite with these zero Baht tours. Despite many Chinese tourists the Thais did not get much money. Here in Pattaya the Chinese even built a fake temple to get the money from things like amulets they sold there to their Chinese customers. 

 

Edited September 8, 2020 by Oldie

[GAZZPA]

2 minutes ago, Grusa said:

We did not. We decided to retire to Thailand, 13 years ago, for many reasons, too long a story for here. So, why Pattaya?

SWMBO preferred Chiang Mai, but on previous visits was intolerable for much of the year because we both have allergies, and nothing has improved since. Points North, same same.

So, Phuket, Koh Chang, Samui, Trat, Trang, etc.? Same or similar allergy problems.

Bangkok? not a chance, hate cities, too hot, too congested, too polluted.

Pattaya? We knew lots of people, language not a problem, everything we need easily available.

Sex? Bars? Walking Street? Scams? Karaoke? Tourists various? Pervs and Mongers? Yes we know about them, we even take our visitors to see them if it floats their boats.......but mostly we don't even see any of it.

The recent lack of traffic, especially garish and ghastly tour buses, has made the place heaven again, just like 30 years ago but without the supply chain problems!

I know something has to give soon, but meanwhile.....enjoy.

I do take your point about pensions, the only truly worrying fly in the ointment!

If you are saying Pattaya has not primarily grown due to it's sex industry and party town image you are delusional. Yes there are retirees, many indulge in the hookers in the town but if a retiree is making a choice on where to retire for a sunny, sleepy seaside resort Pattaya would not make the shortlist. Maybe in the future when it dies (as it is now) but certainly not in the past. The people who retired there 10 or 15 years ago are of course older now and welcome the peace and quiet but it is not good for the economy.. It is a very personal view, clearly pensioners cannot keep the city afloat on their own.

[JensenZ]

4 hours ago, phantomfiddler said:

A combination of factors, in my opinion, have contributed to the destruction of the tourist and entertainment situation in Pattaya, Bangkok, Phuket, and Samui. The ridiculous reaction by the authorities to basically ban all tourists, just because of a supposed virus that "supposedly" has caused the deaths of 0.00008% of the Thai population, has probably been the main contributing factor.

Banning tourists in Thailand has nothing at all to do with the current situation. All countries banned international travel and went into lockdown. Most governments are printing money and going broke. Pattaya tends to attract budget tourists and it could be quite awhile until these type of tourists have surplus funds with which to travel as they are struggling to survive back at home.

 

The future of Pattaya relies on the rest of world where tourists come from to get back to normal.

[GAZZPA]

4 minutes ago, JaneM said:

When you think this pandemic is the same as others before, than you haven't been paying much attention. Never in history (the best teacher according to your knowledge) has there been a lockdown for so many people. Never in history have been so many people out of a job because of a "virus" (it's not, but that's another discussion). Never in history did almost all governments work together to destroy their own economies. Never in history said the western world: 'We have to look at China and follow their method of lockdowns and quarantine of whole cities'. Never in history was there so much financial gain to make from a forced vaccine, and I could go on and on...If you still think this is the same as all other pandemics before, you don't know sh*t about history. 

it is exactly the same as before,, yes how we behave is different because we live in a modern world with easier and more readily available travel so the virus spreads easier,, that was not the case years gone by. So yes the effect maybe different and how we deal with it is different but the virus does not know what century it is in does it! It will go away eventually, hopefully the vaccine will end it sooner then it's natural course. It is you who doesn't know sh*t, (or you don't understand) you clearly haven't got a clue what you are talking about. A pandemic is the same as it was in previous generations it's just how we deal with it each time that is different.. Get it?!

[JensenZ]

3 hours ago, phantomfiddler said:

I could be wrong, usually am, but I do believe the post you replied to was aimed at the actual bar operators, as opposed to the property owners, so possibly a huge difference in direction of sympathy. Right now ALL property owners should be giving a substantial cut in rent, but the way things are headed even this will not improve the situation whereby the employees wages dwarf the daily takings ???? Things are inexorably headed in this direction !

If they want to keep any tenants at all, they shouldn't be charging rent. They should be working with their tenants to enable them to get through this.

[Thingamabob]

10 hours ago, chrisandsu said:

A lot of people’s life savings are going up in smoke . It’s almost like the banks are waiting to take property and goods and will only be too happy to reset everybody to zero so they can come back to the banks and get even more debt to start up again. None of this makes any sense !

It makes sense. The rich get richer while the poor get poorer. 

[GAZZPA]

2 minutes ago, JensenZ said:

If they want to keep any tenants at all, they shouldn't be charging rent. They should be working with their tenants to enable them to get through this.

Absolutely right, but only if they can see things will change in the relatively near future. The problem with Thai mentality is they live for today, not tomorrow. They have never been good at seeing the longer term and planning doesn't exist in the Thai language.

[JensenZ]

6 minutes ago, rumak said:

For most of the world,  things are looking a bit troublesome.  Hope I am wrong . 

"bit troublesome" - understatement of the year.

 

A total economic meltdown is coming that will make the 1929 crash seem like a picnic by comparison. Throughout human history, civilizations rose and fell. They all had their time in the sun. We are about to watch a civilization fall in real time.

 

[RichardColeman]

Said it before, I am of the firm belief that many Thai bars and businesses have been running on their savings in the hope that a coming high season will rescue them. BUT , as time goes by they are beginning to realise that the government is about to let their businesses go to the wall. The borders will not open to save them by Chinese new year. I expect this realisation to hit the businesses still open soon and an explosion of closing businesses soon there after.

[impulse]

9 hours ago, Walker88 said:

Those with less leverage (if these aren't unicorns) are still going to feel it, because real estate is a wasting asset. Even if one is debt free, there are still property taxes and maintenance costs, so a building with no tenant or one in arrears still has a cash outflow.

 

Not so much in Thailand, where there are virtually no real estate taxes, and all it takes to "maintain" an empty building is a bit of lumber to board it up for a decade.  

 

If they enacted genuine real estate taxes (which is only starting), it would revolutionize the Thai real estate market, when it actually costs people cash out of pocket to sit on a valuable asset watching it appreciate.  As it sits now, they throw out a high price, and wait for years and years for the value to meet their price.

 

[rumak]

5 minutes ago, JensenZ said:

"bit troublesome" - understatement of the year.

that is how i try to please some that say i am too negative   ????

 

I am on record here as giving my opinion that the world is totally  f.......d .    But i still hope i am

wrong .   This is one self serving world we live in.   The "people"  do not have the weapons , and anyway

they would rather choke on their big mac and post a smiley than take the trouble to figure out what

goes on.   Fighting about everything (against each other)

 

Best plan  imo  is figure out how to survive .   You and your loved ones.  

[rumak]

Just now, impulse said:

 

Not so much in Thailand, where there are virtually no real estate taxes, and all it takes to "maintain" an empty building is a bit of lumber to board it up for a decade.  

 

If they enacted genuine real estate taxes (which is only starting), it would revolutionize the Thai real estate market, when it actually costs people cash out of pocket to sit on a valuable asset watching it appreciate.  As it sits now, they throw out a high price, and wait for years and years for the value to meet their price.

 

i have some prime real estate for sale .    well, it will be in ten years  ????

[rexall]

2 hours ago, epicking said:

Landlords dont help much.
My Girlfriend has a Massage clinic with her sister. They made a deal with him of 70% rent until January, 21 on the condition that they closed and not did business or stayed there.
He just called the other day and said no-more. Either pay full rent now or get out.

Why on earth would an owner do that unless he expected that he could find a new, full-paying tenant, or if he  had some other plans for the property?  Makes no sense.

[GAZZPA]

12 minutes ago, rumak said:

i have some prime real estate for sale .    well, it will be in ten years  ????

I'll trade yer,, I've got a bag of sticky rice and some nice flip flops,,, ????

[jesimps]

10 hours ago, Scooby and Puppy said:

I wonder if the golf courses will lower their green fees?  Does anyone know? Compared to Korat area, Pattaya golf is expensive even for average courses.. 

As for bars, clubs etc., I feel sorry for the workers, for sure, but i don't miss the scams they try on tourists when everything is rosy. Because there was always another mug to rip off coming along. But now there isn't. 
I believe westerners won't return in such large numbers when it starts to recover. It's just too expensive compared to up and coming rivals like  Vietnam, Cambodia, even Philippines.

 

 

When I came here I was gobsmacked by the price of a round of golf. In view of the cheap price of property and labour I thought it'd cost next to nothing for 18 holes. How wrong could I have been? It's like swimming pools and other labour intensive projects, should be cheap as chips here, but because they're considered to be a hi-so item, they charge the earth. I don't have a lot of sympathy for a lot of the businesses that are struggling which have made a fortune by overcharging in the past.

[Burma Bill]

With due respect and sadness:-

 

[djuiiy]

5 hours ago, Kaopad999 said:

Tourism as we once knew it was already on the decline before this Covid situation.
 

it wasn't in decline, it just wasn't keeping up with the massive year or year expansion of tourist businesses. There were cranes and construction of sky scrapper hotels in a city that was already nearly entirely underused hotels and bars and food outlets.
From a lenders point of view it made a lot of sense to pull the plug on the thai economy so that thousands of eager startup businesses trying to get a piece of the tourism industry default on their debt, having to hand over their assets to the banks.

[GAZZPA]

1 minute ago, djuiiy said:

it wasn't in decline, it just wasn't keeping up with the massive year or year expansion of tourist businesses. There were cranes and construction of sky scrapper hotels in a city that was already nearly entirely underused hotels and bars and food outlets.
From a lenders point of view it made a lot of sense to pull the plug on the thai economy so that thousands of eager startup businesses trying to get a piece of the tourism industry default on their debt, having to hand over their assets to the banks.

It was in decline fella, Pattaya has been struggling for years now. Don't believe the official numbers they are very misleading.... 

[djuiiy]

btw,  in these times of recession & monetary contraction, big players often move into new areas of business. Has anyone noticed the presense of new groups of people buying up real estate in Pattaya? I suspect well financed islamic groups are looking to establish a firm new base there.

[elliss]

Pattaya,  is History .

    It's reputation as the World's biggest brothel , is a stigma , on Thai culture ...

 Finance's , raised by means of prostitution , are alien to the present , Thai Government ..

[rexall]

1 hour ago, GAZZPA said:

As I said, i understand that. you may know a few but you are still there and Pattaya is dying so there is nowhere near enough of you to support a cities economy. It has not grown and thrived as "Snoozeville by the sea" for old duffers, it has been a party city for decades. 

My first visit was was on holiday in 1994.  Wow!  26 years ago!  Certainly, the major attraction--or one of the major attractions--was the girls and the bars. But there were rather few of them. I would walk from Pattaya to Jomtien and there was nothing along the road. Lots of empty space in Jomtien. Very sleepy.  Very nice, actually, even with many fewer amenities that made made life easy and nice for expats. The only way to communicate overseas was to visit a little shop that would send a fax for $10.  No Big C yet in Pattaya.  When I moved there 5 years later, there was more, but it was still sleepy.  Not so by the time I left and moved upcountry in 2004.  

[djuiiy]

4 minutes ago, GAZZPA said:

It was in decline fella, Pattaya has been struggling for years now. Don't believe the official numbers they are very misleading.... 

I've been visiting pattaya the last few years, I haven't noticed substancial decline. Certainly, the foot traffic varies, but thats nothing new. 5 years ago soi 6 was definately busier than it was in winter 2019-20. More recently, vast rivers of chinese family tourists changed the market. But overall pattaya seems to be growing year on year to me.

[moontang]

15 minutes ago, djuiiy said:

btw,  in these times of recession & monetary contraction, big players often move into new areas of business. Has anyone noticed the presense of new groups of people buying up real estate in Pattaya? I suspect well financed islamic groups are looking to establish a firm new base there.

They have been known to make some bold moves in downturns.  They even bought a stake in Carnival at just about the peak of the crisis.  https://cruisearabiaonline.com/2020/04/07/saudi-arabia-buys-stake-in-cruise-giant-carnival-as-it-seeks-to-become-cruise-destination/

Edited September 8, 2020 by moontang

[scammed]

3 hours ago, DrTuner said:

It's a welcome cleanup. Traffic is almost alright now, too. Let the strongest survive.

yes for me personally as i do not need a job for income,

but i also got many thai friends that are really struggling now,

and for the first time in 15 years, i now meet random begging requests the moment i leave the hotel building

[GAZZPA]

3 minutes ago, djuiiy said:

I've been visiting pattaya the last few years, I haven't noticed substancial decline. Certainly, the foot traffic varies, but thats nothing new. 5 years ago soi 6 was definately busier than it was in winter 2019-20. More recently, vast rivers of chinese family tourists changed the market. But overall pattaya seems to be growing year on year to me.

Well I lived and worked there for 7 years, before that regular visits on business for 10 years. I also had a business in Pattaya and know many who also own there own business. Nearly all trade is reliant in tourism and the business was declining significantly for 5 or 6 years before I got out of there. Many of my friends and colleagues have done the same, there was no money to be made anymore. So not being argumentative but your holiday experience is not the same as living and working there and it has been on the slide for a long time, it absolutely is not growing year on year, quite the reverse.

[Andy from Kent]

11 hours ago, Oldie said:

If I look at the many open air bars - they are just very simple and cheap constructions. If they go bust not much investment is lost. It is a different story for hotels and shopping malls for instance. Here also the banks might suffer. 

I prefer not to see any decent business have to close up shop.