Why the hysteria over wearing a mask, but not a helmet?

[eisfeld]

18 minutes ago, jesimps said:

I have no problems about wearing a mask, but I do think the OP has a valid point. I think he's pointing out that as well as covid precautions ie wearing a mask but no helmet, they should be taking the prospect of being killed on the road just as seriously, especially in relation to their children.

Yes there are other issues in the country that could be handled better. But they have nothing in common with the current pandemic apart from "there is death involved". Please see previous comments as to why. Bringing up helmet wearing or TB to discredit the countermeasures is text book Whataboutism and just diverts the discussion away from the core issue, it's a logical fallacy.

 

Quote

Whataboutism, also known as whataboutery, is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument.

 

[OneMoreFarang]

3 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

One of the common arguments in support of not wearing a helmet is that its ‘victimless’ (i.e. only the rider not wearing the helmet could be impacted). However, thats not true, there is additional burden on health services, including rehabilitation, burden on the state to look after the injured and handicapped, additional burden on insurance, and finally, the big one....

In principle you are right. Should we apply the same logic to all our behavior?

Then smoking and drinking alcohol should be illegal. Eating unhealthy food should be illegal, and and and.

I have to admit I prefer the personal freedom that it's up to me which of the unhealthy things I do and don't do. ???? 

[Estrada]

17 hours ago, Meat Pie 47 said:

Tuberculosis is caused by bacteria that spread from person to person through microscopic droplets released into the air. This can happen when someone with the untreated, active form of tuberculosis coughs, speaks, sneezes, spits, laughs or sings. Although tuberculosis is contagious, it's not easy to catch.

Quite correct it is very hard to catch unless you spend a lot of time with an infected person. I have been coming here since 1982 and have lived here 26 years and never got infected. Some neighbours have had TB and died in the past but I social distance from them just like I used to have to do with smokers in pubs. In the United States there have been 200,000 deaths from COVID-19 thanks to the Trump Virus and likely to reach 1 Million before enough people have been vacinated. In the same period there have only been 525 deaths from TB in the U.S. out of a total of 8.920 cases. In the U.K. there have been over 41,000 deaths from COVID-19 compared to only 264 from TB out of 5,008 cases.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Estrada

[Bender Rodriguez]

mai pen rai attitude + re-incarnation + population control

[Gandtee]

On 9/12/2020 at 12:18 PM, bkk6060 said:

Technically they are hurting their kids and themselves if there is an accident.

Parents make poor choices for their kids all the time.

And the cheap helmets many wear will do nothing anyway to protect them.

 

I get it, but am anti helmet.  I think it should be a personal choice as is killing yourself by smoking or drinking too much.

The mask responsibility has been explained by previous posts.

 

Personal choice, yes. But why should Joe Public have to foot the hospital bills for your bad choice? 

[Foghorn]

The Chinese virus can effect the rich and famous , someone riding a motorcycle without helmet won’t effect the rich and powerful

[Thomas J]

18 hours ago, eisfeld said:

I did not try to establish a correlation without causation

Eisfeld, 

yes you did.  You make the leap of logic that somehow what steps the Thai Govt. took with lockdowns, masks, etc were responsible for the low incidence of Covid. 
1. First, who has established that the official Covid figures in Thailand are even remotely accurate.  China with over 1 billion people reports only 85,000 cases.  Do you believe that either? 
2. EVERY COUNTRY THAT IS HOT, HUMID, AND HAS A YOUNG POPULATION has a low incidence of Covid and covid deaths.  Did the government actions do that? 
3. Sweden that did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING has a lower covid infection rate than Spain and is about equal to Belgium.  Both Spain and Belgium took the same draconian steps as Thailand.  So that pretty well refutes the effectiveness of those practices. 

Again, the original question of this post was why the hysteria over Covid with 58 deaths versus things like traffic accidents wearing helmets and certainly TB which took more than 9,000 lives. 

It is a causal observation not a certain causation that what Thailand did resulted in a low incidence of Covid.  Vietnam has even a lower rate.  

Your leap of faith is no different than if a person was in the intensive care unit with a head injury and the doctor walked in, mistook him for another patient and amputated his legs but the patient survived.  Did that amputation cause his miraculous recovery?  

[DrTuner]

What masks? Didn't see a single person wearing one when I went for dinner yesterday. 

[Fairynuff]

On 9/12/2020 at 12:13 PM, Peterw42 said:

Because you cannot catch a motorbike accident, motorbike accidents are not contagious. The rate of motorbike accidents does not grow exponentially, 10 this week then 20 next week etc etc.

Whether I even choose to even hop on a motorbike is a personal decision. Whether I catch a virus is not a personal decision

Isn’t it a bit weird that you have to explain this to someone who we assume is an adult?

[ABreedApart]

On 9/12/2020 at 12:01 PM, ezzra said:

Because not wearing a helmet will only out yourself at risk while not wearing mask put many others in risk of infections who will infect others...

Wearing a mask will not protect against a virus. Virus molecules are just to small to be stopped by the weave of the mask. Many studies prove this. 

[The Theory]

On 9/12/2020 at 12:06 PM, Thomas J said:

Did they choose? 

It's getting political. I can not answer that. ????????????????????

[Peterphuket]

Not so difficult, why should you wear a helmet if you have no brains.

Simple as that.

[Peterw42]

1 hour ago, ABreedApart said:

Wearing a mask will not protect against a virus. Virus molecules are just to small to be stopped by the weave of the mask. Many studies prove this. 

Masks are to stop water droplets not virus molecules. Water droplets are a whole lot bigger than virus molecules.

Cough on to your hand without a mask then have a look/feel, try the same with a mask and note the difference.

[eisfeld]

1 hour ago, Thomas J said:

Eisfeld, 

yes you did.  You make the leap of logic that somehow what steps the Thai Govt. took with lockdowns, masks, etc were responsible for the low incidence of Covid. 
1. First, who has established that the official Covid figures in Thailand are even remotely accurate.  China with over 1 billion people reports only 85,000 cases.  Do you believe that either? 
2. EVERY COUNTRY THAT IS HOT, HUMID, AND HAS A YOUNG POPULATION has a low incidence of Covid and covid deaths.  Did the government actions do that? 
3. Sweden that did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING has a lower covid infection rate than Spain and is about equal to Belgium.  Both Spain and Belgium took the same draconian steps as Thailand.  So that pretty well refutes the effectiveness of those practices. 

Again, the original question of this post was why the hysteria over Covid with 58 deaths versus things like traffic accidents wearing helmets and certainly TB which took more than 9,000 lives. 

It is a causal observation not a certain causation that what Thailand did resulted in a low incidence of Covid.  Vietnam has even a lower rate.  

Your leap of faith is no different than if a person was in the intensive care unit with a head injury and the doctor walked in, mistook him for another patient and amputated his legs but the patient survived.  Did that amputation cause his miraculous recovery?  

 

Stop claiming I did things that I didn't. Read my post again and try to understand it. I asked you if you considered it. Where is the leap of logic exactly?

 

1. Yes I am totally open to the idea that the official numbers in Thailand are not accurate. Though again you bring the Whataboutism with China.

 

2. I already refuted your claim with the example of Brazil and it's neighbours. Why do you still claim this stuff? Writing it in all caps doesn't make it right.

 

3. That is a good point finally. Something constructive and to think about.

 

Yes your original question was Whataboutism. That there are other problems doesn't work as criticism for the handling of the current pandemic especially with two examples so different from it as has been pointed out many times here.

 

And lastly what leap of faith? There's zero room for faith in approaching this pandemic. Science can beat it, not faith. I've never claimed that the lockdown or masks are the reason that the outbreaks have been less severe here. I'm positing it as one of the possible contributing factors. And since neither you nor me nor anyone else has final conclusive proof either way, I'd rather err on the side of caution. Especially with the wearing of masks which really isn't a burden. Fighting against wearing masks is pretty ridicolous imho. As someone else said: risk vs. potential reward.

  

1 hour ago, ABreedApart said:

Wearing a mask will not protect against a virus. Virus molecules are just to small to be stopped by the weave of the mask. Many studies prove this. 

What about a virus that's attached to mucus or water droplets? Those will stick to the mask.

[Destiny1990]

Masks outdoor are useless Imho. Just like these 200 bht Big C plastic helmets are.

Sweden no masks no lockdown still doing fine.

[sawadee1947]

On 9/12/2020 at 6:55 AM, Thomas J said:

a virus that the vast majority of people will recover from, even without hospitalization,

oh dear, it's fact that almost everybody who recovered from "Corona" had some more or less severe side effects. Many got problems in taste, in walking, in proper speaking, and as you see with Bojo even with brain activities. And because we don't know much about this new virus there might be more even after years.

Therefore this virus cannot be compared with any other, although some dumb minds find it similar to a flu, as Donald does.

But those 2 so called politicians who are to protect their people did not do it but are responsible that many thousands died instead by neglecting the danger of this virus.

Within the next 2 weeks more than 200.000 Americans will have died. Thousands of them would be still alive if Donald would have done his job. (same as Bojo in UK)

[ifmu]

yes u are correct ... that is how it is here ... traffic accidents drunk driving etc are ok 

the trump virus is not ..   altho they are relaxing the mask rules here .. till the next outbreak 

[eisfeld]

10 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

Yeah look at belgium spain and italy with their very long and harsh lockdowns nicely ranking above Sweden. 

Swedens direct neighbours Norway, Finland and Denmark have much lower mortality rates though. And the differences are too big to explain them as statistically insignificant. Is there a page comparing all the countermeasures that each country took and from when to when? Something must explain the big differences.

[richard_smith237]

On 9/12/2020 at 1:59 PM, eisfeld said:

speaking of economy killing efforts. Thailands tourism sector is responsible for something under 20% of GDP. The overwhelming majority of revenue is being generated by sectors which do not depend on tourists. That's why they shut down tourism: in order to protect the 80% of revenue. Sure that's going to be impacted as well. But if covid breaks out in a factory then the whole company gets shut down. And if that happens too much the whole country is either completely doomed or they accept the human toll and just go on as if nothing happened. Many people overestimate the importance of tourism to Thailands economy. Only Phuket and Pattaya are extremely reliant on that sector. The latter at least has the industrial sector right around the corner but Phuket... poof.

 

If Covid-19 sweeps through a factory of ‘working age’ individuals, will any of them show symptoms? is it necessary to shut anything down at all ????

 

A significant part of this discussion has to involve the fact that this illness actually impacts very few people. 

 

I think figures of asymptotic Covid-19 cases of around 85% have been thrown around while 10% show a range of mild symptoms and 5% which seems to include those with other serious illnesses or in high risk age groups requiring treatment and <1% dying from Covid-19. 

 

I’m not sure factories would need to close down at all. 

 

Those at risk clearly need protection, but not at such devastating cost to the economy. 

 

Another facet: while Tourism accounts for 17.6% of Thailands GDP there are significant ‘link up’ industries which also rely heavily, from raw food production to the junk sold in markets and many many more items... Thailands income from tourism could be far more significant to those in positions of need. 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2020 by richard_smith237

[onthedarkside]

An unsourced/unattributed chart on COVID deaths per 100,000 population among varying countries has been removed. If you're going to post such info, please include a web link to the original source.

 

Also, a trolling meme post was removed.

[eisfeld]

1 minute ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

If Covid-19 sweeps through a factory of ‘working age’ individuals, will any of them show symptoms? is it necessary to shut anything down at all ????

 

A significant part of this discussion has to involve the fact that this illness actually impacts very few people. 

 

I think figures of asymptotic Covid-19 cases of around 85% have been thrown around while 10% show a range of mild symptoms and 5% which seems to include those with other serious illnesses or in high risk age groups requiring treatment and <1% dying from Covid-19. 

 

I’m not sure factories would need to close down at all. 

 

Those at risk clearly need protection, but not at such devastating cost to the economy. 

 

Another facet: while Tourism accounts for 17.6% of Thailands GDP there are significant ‘link up’ industries which also rely heavily, from raw food production to the junk sold in markets and many many more items... Thailands income from tourism could be far more significant to those in positions of need. 

 

 

I'm not saying that all the people in the factory will get sick. But judging from what we saw with shopping malls, schools and other places where covid infections were detected and got shut down, I'm pretty sure that that would happen to a factory as well. I'm not saying though that this reaction would be right or wrong. Only that this is what likely would happen judging by recent reactions to outbreaks.

 

Sure there are sectors linked to tourism. But the vast majority of the economy are not. Plus there is a big fear that allowing tourism will cause outbreaks. There's no such fear that a car factory will do that.

 

The problem is that there is no clearly right way to handle the pandemic. You either sacrifice one thing or the other. Between a rock and a hard place. We have soon a million deaths and we have economies hit very hard.

[richard_smith237]

5 minutes ago, eisfeld said:

I'm not saying that all the people in the factory will get sick. But judging from what we saw with shopping malls, schools and other places where covid infections were detected and got shut down, I'm pretty sure that that would happen to a factory as well. I'm not saying though that this reaction would be right or wrong. Only that this is what likely would happen judging by recent reactions to outbreaks.

 

Sure there are sectors linked to tourism. But the vast majority of the economy are not. Plus there is a big fear that allowing tourism will cause outbreaks. There's no such fear that a car factory will do that.

 

The problem is that there is no clearly right way to handle the pandemic. You either sacrifice one thing or the other. Between a rock and a hard place. We have soon a million deaths and we have economies hit very hard.

Indeed... 

 

Although a number of those deaths are questionable from the perspective that those in the highest risk groups may have died with or without Covid-19. 

I would consider the manner in which Covid-19 deaths have been reported is misleading and has created an overwhelming degree of hysteria. 

 

I’m not sure the lockdowns are even necessary at all anymore.

 

I would consider focus better applied on protecting those in high risk groups while allowing the rest of the world to continue to operate as normal while maintaining as best as possible, isolation methods. 

 

 

 

This is always going to be debated and its been said many times. 

While the initial lockdowns due to a new and unknown virus made sense, now me know more the continued ‘lock out’ for tourists etc creates a temporary solution which may be worse than the disease. 

 

Can we ever rid the globe of Covid-19? Will a vaccine be effective for those in high risk groups to any significant degree?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[elgenon]

Many Thai poor people have other expenses that need to be paid. They are willing to take the chance.

 

A mask is a lot less expensive. And warn for more than one reason.

[Thomas J]

13 hours ago, sawadee1947 said:

oh dear, it's fact that almost everybody who recovered from "Corona" had some more or less severe side effects. Many got problems in taste, in walking, in proper speaking,

Sawadee1947

 

[Thomas J]

18 hours ago, Estrada said:

Quite correct it is very hard to catch unless you spend a lot of time with an infected person

 

https://tradingeconomics.com/thailand/incidence-of-tuberculosis-per-100-000-people-wb-data.html

Estrada,

 

May be "very hard to get" but 9,200 people in Thailand die from it every year.  Far Far Far Far more than from Covid. 

 

[Thomas J]

16 hours ago, Fairynuff said:

On 9/12/2020 at 12:13 PM, Peterw42 said:

Because you cannot catch a motorbike accident, motorbike accidents are not contagious. The rate of motorbike accidents does not grow exponentially, 10 this week then 20 next week etc etc.

Whether I even choose to even hop on a motorbike is a personal decision. Whether I catch a virus is not a personal decision

Isn’t it a bit weird that you have to explain this to someone who we assume is an adult?

Peterw42  Fairynuff,

 

You miss the entire point of the original post.  If DEATHS are a concern, why the hysteria over Covid and not wearing a motorcycle helmet.  Even if I give you the fact that the hysteria is due to the fact that catching a virus is not a personal decision.  Then why not hysteria over TB.  Thailand is among nations in the world with the highest incidence of TB and the latest figures show that 13 people per 100,000 die from TB in Thailand annually.  That is 9,200 deaths 

TB is spread exactly like Covid from contact.  It has been as high as 18 per 100,000 as recently as 2005.  However despite many more deaths, there were no lockdowns, no shutting the borders, no masks required, no shuttering of businesses. Again if deaths are the issue why is Covid treated differently than TB 

 

[eisfeld]

2 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

Peterw42  Fairynuff,

 

You miss the entire point of the original post.  If DEATHS are a concern, why the hysteria over Covid and not wearing a motorcycle helmet.  Even if I give you the fact that the hysteria is due to the fact that catching a virus is not a personal decision.  Then why not hysteria over TB.  Thailand is among nations in the world with the highest incidence of TB and the latest figures show that 13 people per 100,000 die from TB in Thailand annually.  That is 9,200 deaths 

TB is spread exactly like Covid from contact.  It has been as high as 18 per 100,000 as recently as 2005.  However despite many more deaths, there were no lockdowns, no shutting the borders, no masks required, no shuttering of businesses. Again if deaths are the issue why is Covid treated differently than TB 

 

You were given a couple possible explanations already in this thread. But it seems you ignored those and ask the same question again. You even mention one possible answer ("personal decision", though it does not apply to all viruses) right there.

[Peterw42]

34 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

Peterw42  Fairynuff,

 

You miss the entire point of the original post.  If DEATHS are a concern, why the hysteria over Covid and not wearing a motorcycle helmet.  Even if I give you the fact that the hysteria is due to the fact that catching a virus is not a personal decision.  Then why not hysteria over TB.  Thailand is among nations in the world with the highest incidence of TB and the latest figures show that 13 people per 100,000 die from TB in Thailand annually.  That is 9,200 deaths 

TB is spread exactly like Covid from contact.  It has been as high as 18 per 100,000 as recently as 2005.  However despite many more deaths, there were no lockdowns, no shutting the borders, no masks required, no shuttering of businesses. Again if deaths are the issue why is Covid treated differently than TB 

 

There are many subtle but important differences between covid and TB, Covid is a virus, TB is a bacterial infection. Covid has an r0 (how infectious) of 2-3, TB has an r0 of 1. The spread and death rate of TB is not increasing exponentially.

TB is spread airbourne, not by touch or surfaces etc. You can kiss a person with TB and not catch it.

As stated previously, TB is preventable, treatable, curable, in decline and has a vaccine.

Yes, in a perfect world we would all wear masks and wipe out TB but at the moment it doesnt present the same immediate threat as Covid.

Edited September 14, 2020 by Peterw42

[sawadee1947]

2 hours ago, eisfeld said:

You were given a couple possible explanations already in this thread. But it seems you ignored those and ask the same question again. You even mention one possible answer ("personal decision", though it does not apply to all viruses) right there.

These figures are Old stuff. From MARCH.!!!!! 

If you would use data from September you would be terrified. ????

[eisfeld]

5 minutes ago, sawadee1947 said:

These figures are Old stuff. From MARCH.!!!!! 

If you would use data from September you would be terrified. ????

What figures? Your quote of me doesn't include any and the argument presented directly doesn't rely on any figures at all so I'm confused as to what you are talking about. Did you want to quote some other post?