Bhutan model for tourism

[JackThompson]

Bad Idea overall, because:

• The money collected would only subtract from money spent directly into Thai's pockets - same problem as the "Elite" visa and agent-money extortion.
• The more self-funded foreigners come to Thailand, and the longer they stay the more Thais get a chance on the economic ladder from their spending.  
• Previous "crackdowns" which reduced the number of Western tourists, closed entire blocks of businesses that formerly served them
• The type of tourism which is harmful, is mass-tour-package tourism - where spending is "funneled" to connected businesses (corruption), and very little goes to smaller Thai entrepreneurs

The problem I observed, pre-covid, was the shift to "mass tour-package" tourism, which did make Thailand far less attractive, due to overcrowding.  Ending this type of tourism would address negative impacts.

 - Environment - no tour-buses = less smog.  Also, closing national parks for periods/yr already in the pipeline;
 - Infrastructure - massive airport expansions for "package tour" visitors, and extensive tour-bus road damage.  Trade is a more significant factor.
 - Culture - Could limit tourist visitors to tourist-designated areas.  Could also offer more-attractive retirement and/or remote-worker schemes which are limited to specific areas.  Would need to cut off the Internet to have any significant effect on foreign-culture exposure (they are looking at their phones far more than us).
 - COVID19 - is already fading away.  Too long to go into here, but basically everything the "govt-approved experts" said has been proven wrong by the statistics.

[Raphael Hythlodaeus]

1 hour ago, Dcheech said:

sleep in tents

Er, no. I slept in hotels when I went to Bhutan.

[Raphael Hythlodaeus]

16 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Bad Idea overall

Ok, fair enough. But how do you propose to limit "mass tour-package"?

[JackThompson]

6 minutes ago, Raphael Hythlodaeus said:

Ok, fair enough. But how do you propose to limit "mass tour-package"?

No "deals" - volume-discounts, etc.   Regulatory action could work.  Could also mandate all businesses serving the tourist-market must hire Thais only, and set a decent lower-bound wage.  (better if done for construction, etc also, but O.T.)

The Thais working for businesses that serve the "tour package" types, whom I have known personally, report much worse working conditions and pay than small gueshouses, restaurants.  We tip, too, which makes a significant difference.

I am not opposed to surcharges which offset actual costs - such as 100 Baht/person/mo-of-stay to put into the health-fund, which would more than cover any unpaid medical-bills. 

The problem with the Bhutan model, is it is designed to ISOLATE Bhutan's people, as though they were animals in a sort of time-machine "wildlife refuge" - not provide the widest viable economic path for as many Human Beings as possible. 

[gearbox]

13 minutes ago, Raphael Hythlodaeus said:

Ok, fair enough. But how do you propose to limit "mass tour-package"?

You can make the first positive step. Leave the country and the number of tourists will be reduced by one.

[gearbox]

2 hours ago, Dcheech said:

Bhutan sits deep in the Himalaya mountains with a ready made tourist base of trekkers that will pay handsomely to sleep in tents and walk on trails. Yes other groups visit temples but the trekkers are their main base.

 

I would be surprised, no shocked,  if this model could work for Thailand. BTW Laos tried it 89 -94. Did not work there.

Bhutan - "All tourists (group or individual) must travel on a planned, prepaid, guided package-tour or according to a custom-designed travel-program. Most foreigners cannot travel independently in the kingdom."

 

North Korea style. Will never go to a country like this.

 

[Raphael Hythlodaeus]

1 hour ago, gearbox said:

You can make the first positive step. Leave the country and the number of tourists will be reduced by one.

Ye gad, that's a good idea. Why did I never think of it.

Any other bright comments?

[Raphael Hythlodaeus]

2 hours ago, gearbox said:

I would be surprised, no shocked,  if this model could work for Thailand

I did not propose to copy the Bhutan model exactly, only as a guide. Of course it would not work in Thailand in the same way with guided tours.

But if you think as I do that mass tourism is unsustainable in Thailand long term (after COVID19 goes away, if it ever does, and things get back to "normal"), what would you do about it?

I am merely suggesting a per diem charge to reduce numbers except for more affluent visitors. 

Do you have any better idea? 

Lots of criticism here but no answers (as expected).

Personally, I'm not bothered at all because after 40-years in Thailand if it gets too difficult here I can always up sticks and move to somewhere else (and take my money with me). No problem. I rather like Zimbabwe despite the economic catastrophe there for the locals. But I ain't leaving yet, since I've never had a problem renewing my retirement extension (up to now !!).

Edited September 14, 2020 by Raphael Hythlodaeus

[Raphael Hythlodaeus]

I did not know this before, but someone mentioned to me that Spain and Italy etc. have different versions of a "bedroom tax" to reduce "chronic overcrowding."

https://www.lovemoney.com/guides/52231/tourist-tax-in-europe-what-you-will-pay-in-spain-italy-and-other-hotspots#:~:text=It has been standardised to,age of 18 are exempt.

 

I would have thought an entry per diem charge would be easier to administer than some form of local or hotel tax.

Edited September 14, 2020 by Raphael Hythlodaeus

[steven100]

Quality tourists don't come to Thailand .... not in any great numbers that's for sure. 

Quality tourists go to the Maldives or Hawaii or Costa de Sol,  they don't go to Pattaya's beach road that's for sure. 

Sex pats and p_ssheads come to Thailand in quantity .... becuase it's cheap.  imo 

[Raphael Hythlodaeus]

13 minutes ago, steven100 said:

Sex pats and p_ssheads come to Thailand in quantity .... becuase it's cheap.  imo

Right on !! So make it more expensive for them. I don't know, but I suspect Thailand is not so cheap these days (comments?) with the high tax on booze, exchange rates, etc. I'm not familiar with bar girl prices. Looked at hotel prices today and was surprised how expensive they've become -- must be trying to reduce losses by increasing the room rates !

Edited September 14, 2020 by Raphael Hythlodaeus

[phetphet]

3 hours ago, Raphael Hythlodaeus said:

Ok, fair enough. But how do you propose to limit "mass tour-package"?

That's easy. Bring about a pandemic.

 

The strength of the THB helps deter tourists as well.

 

I don't suppose that you are here  on a retirement visa by any chance?

Edited September 14, 2020 by phetphet

[Raphael Hythlodaeus]

2 hours ago, JackThompson said:

No "deals" - volume-discounts, etc.   Regulatory action could work.  Could also mandate all businesses serving the tourist-market must hire Thais only, and set a decent lower-bound wage.  (better if done for construction, etc also, but O.T.)

JackThompson -- thanks for providing the only alternative sensible suggestion to date.

The problem is that "regulatory action" does not work in Thailand due to corruption and weak application of the law. Example: lottery ticket prices.

That is why (in the FUTURE, not now, and only if tourism recovers) I suggested a per diem charge on entry, to be adjusted depending on the numbers arriving in order to limit mass tourism to sustainable levels. Unlike the hidden hotel "bedroom tax" in the West, this would be up front for all to see.

[Raphael Hythlodaeus]

17 minutes ago, phetphet said:

I don't suppose that you are here  on a retirement visa by any chance?

Yes, but if you read my original post you will also note I suggested increasing the bank deposit for retirees from 800K to 1-million baht. Too many retirees here can barely survive financially.

[Phillip9]

3 hours ago, JackThompson said:

COVID19 - is already fading away.  Too long to go into here, but basically everything the "govt-approved experts" said has been proven wrong by the statistics.

Today was a new worldwide record number of new cases.  more than 300,000.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-54142502

[Enoon]

 

 

 

Thai consciousness nowhere near abandoning the "pile it high, sell it cheap" model.

 

 

[Raphael Hythlodaeus]

6 minutes ago, Enoon said:

Thai consciousness nowhere near abandoning the "pile it high, sell it cheap" model.

I have a horrible suspicion you are 100% correct.

[Boomer6969]

Dunno about OP's convoluted scheme, but we have to accept it would be fair if retirees were income taxed on the monthly 65000 they are supposed to bring into the country, which would amount to 45500 a year.

 

[Ganesh108]

7 hours ago, Raphael Hythlodaeus said:

I did not say Thailand does not need its tourism industry. I am suggesting a "high value, low impact" approach, not to end tourism altogether. The per diem charge could be adjusted on a yearly basis depending on the number of tourist arrivals and what is considered a sustainable number (say 10~20 million per year?). 

It's not possible anymore at this point in time. It would leave a few million people unemployed, hotels and restaurants would become haunted, crumbling ruins.

 

If we were still in the early 1980s, before the first 'Visit Thailand Year', which started Thailand's big push towards mass tourism, it would be feasible. Thailand hedged its fate to a major extent on mass tourism. Tourism in turn brought many businessmen into the country who thought, hey, I wish we could have our Asian headquarters in Bangkok, so I can have all these nice chicks all the time. I can vouch that the choice between Bangkok and Kuala Lumpur or Singapore was often decided on the strengths (in a manner of speaking) of the prostitutes the deciding manager had met during the preceding week. 

 

 

 

[geriatrickid]

 

Silly  suggestion/demand. The OP has not thought his "proposal" through.

Excluding the cross border  business/family   traffic from Bangladesh/India and China, how many international visitors does Bhutan have? less than 50,000. Bhutan is not a major financial center in the region, nor a  cargo and passenger traffic hub as Thailand is.

 

7 hours ago, Raphael Hythlodaeus said:

The per diem charge would be collected and refunded by the existing Immigration officials, so I don't think the bureaucratic cost would be great. I agree needs to be costed.

If you wish to be taken seriously,  cost it out before posting. 

 

7 hours ago, Raphael Hythlodaeus said:

According to this web site . . . https://www.thisbatteredsuitcase.com/how-much-does-it-really-cost-to-visit-bhutan/

I went to Bhutan in around 1982 and remember paying US$100 per day then.

 

However, the above link also states:

But that’s where I was totally wrong. In fact, your daily fee covers everything, and once you are in the country you do not pay a single penny.

 

Still, I'm not suggesting that Thailand copies the Bhutanese model exactly, only to be considered as a guide.

 

Use common sense. One can do alot of things  when the number is small. There is nothing, absolutely nothing that can be used. Look at the forum posts from the angry people lamenting Thailand's visa  restrictions. Bhutan's requirements and laws are far stricter. Ask them if they would accept tougher visa rules.  Thailand is easy street in comparison to Bhutan.

 

7 hours ago, Raphael Hythlodaeus said:

Why is it a horrible idea? Please explain.

Because you did not think it through and have not even offered a cost benefit comment to support your proposal. 

 

 

[Brunolem]

1 hour ago, steven100 said:

Quality tourists don't come to Thailand .... not in any great numbers that's for sure. 

Quality tourists go to the Maldives or Hawaii or Costa de Sol,  they don't go to Pattaya's beach road that's for sure. 

Sex pats and p_ssheads come to Thailand in quantity .... becuase it's cheap.  imo 

OP, there you have the opinion of a Thai, a general to boot!

[Raphael Hythlodaeus]

10 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

OP, there you have the opinion of a Thai, a general to boot!

I only wish !! Didn't know that General PM Prayudh was on TV.

[Brunolem]

Countries that cater to wealthy foreigners, such as Bhutan, the Maldives, the Seychelles or Botswana, have one thing in common, they are small or have a small population.

 

They have chosen this option because it fitted their size.

 

A country of one million or so couldn't receive tens of millions of tourists.

 

Thailand is closer to countries like Spain.

 

If the money brought by tourism had been well used (dream on), on improving the infrastructure and the environment, instead of destroying it, the prices would have progressively gone up, flushing away the less desirable "tourists".

 

In other words, instead of aiming high, Thailand has searched for the lowest common denominator, and found it.

 

What can or could be done now?

 

Not much, if anything, because mass tourism is deeply ingrained in the minds of most of the Thais, from top to bottom.

[Raphael Hythlodaeus]

35 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

Because you did not think it through and have not even offered a cost benefit comment to support your proposal

Thanks for your considered reply. I might point out that you said in another post . . .

 

"It was not a sustainable model, catering to  zero baht visitors and neglecting the high value tourists; emphasizing visitor numbers over spend value per visitor."

 

Exactly. Do you have another workable idea to limit the numbers which has been costed according to your requirements?

[JackThompson]

3 hours ago, Raphael Hythlodaeus said:

I am merely suggesting a per diem charge to reduce numbers except for more affluent visitors. 

"Reducing Numbers" directly harms Thai people - just as past "crackdowns" have.  You should get to know some Issan people who lost their jobs pre-covid, due to past immigration crackdowns. 

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, Phillip9 said:

Today was a new worldwide record number of new cases.  more than 300,000.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-54142502

By "Cases" you mean "positive tests" - i.e. "found x dna" in a test. 

The same happened with swine flu - as the death/sick rate plummeted they kept finding "more cases" through expended testing.

This is not particularly useful information, other than for some research purpose.  The serious-illness + death rates are the only metric that affects us.

[puck2]

8 hours ago, Raphael Hythlodaeus said:

But you miss the point. I am not talking about implementing this idea NOW while the dire COVID19 travel restrictions exist, but in the FUTURE when I presume at some point this will all be history? Or will it?

The "FUTURE" has already started ! 

Thailand will never have 40m tourists again. Therefore you should not warry about Thailand's "FUTURE",  ..........  maybe a military future again

 

[onebir]

7 hours ago, Caldera said:

Charging $5 per day is probably too low to have any real impact

Isn't this the cost (approx; 365 * $5 ~ $1800) of the insurance now needed for retirees?

 

[Raphael Hythlodaeus]

39 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

"Reducing Numbers" directly harms Thai people - just as past "crackdowns" have.  You should get to know some Issan people who lost their jobs pre-covid, due to past immigration crackdowns. 

I would not dispute what you say for a moment.

But I'm afraid in these cases the view of the majority overrides the minority. Or more accurately, the Bangkok elite overrule anything else. [what's that called? A tautological inconsistency, or something]

I have no idea about the numbers but it's interesting to note that according to surveys many Thais wish to keep the current travel restrictions despite the economic downturn throwing millions out of work. I wonder if this is less to do with COVID19 health concerns (which in my opinion are totally overblown) than a dislike of "dirty" foreigners in general, and so they might wish to limit the numbers.

Maybe, just maybe, the nationalistic government is merely reflecting this, on the excuse of protecting the population from the virus. 

I note that some say this change in attitude to tourism will never happen, but I say never say never. 

 

Edited September 14, 2020 by Raphael Hythlodaeus

[Trujillo]

I think the Cambodian option is the only reasonable one out there for Thailand to model itself on.