Sick leave abuse - how to prevent?

[Matt199]

Hi guys,

 

What can I do to prevent an employee from taking a sick leave? What do you guys do? if you're running a company

 

This is first time where I feel that the employee is dishonest. For the first 120 days of "probation" the employee did not take any sick leave at all. First day after probation took his first sick leave day. In last 90 days he took 15 days. They aren't consecutive.

 

Is there anything I can do to deter this type of behaviour?

 

Thanks,

[blackcab]

You can require then to get a doctor's certificate every time they are off, even for a single day. This, however, is easy to obtain.

 

At this point you might want to consider terminating the employee before they reach 1 year of service as the termination costs at this point are quite low.

 

Considering you will probably be paying for their sick leave days anyway it's sometimes better to fix the problem early.

[villageidiotY2K]

Maybe the work place is stressful for this dude and looking for a new job! 

Forget bout the bonus for this year its employees game. 

[Poet]

Get rid of this employee before the problem consumes any more of your energy or generates resentment among any other employees you might have.

He is not going to improve and it is not your responsibility to correct his behavior. He has been particularly devious and has acted in bad faith.

 

[Surelynot]

Some companies offer an annual bonus if the number of sick days taken are below a certain level.......The draw back being, if someone is fit and well, they may see the sick day target as extra holiday entitlement and take them towards the end of the year. Swings and roundabouts.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Surelynot

[recom273]

If you want to get rid of someone, surely there is a way - the employee turns up late, you give him a verbal warning, you wait until they go for lunch break and comes back a few mins late, you notice he’s not at his post, you give him a written warning - later in the afternoon they are slow, you give them another warning, expecting more enthusiasm, then at the end of his shift, you notice that they are already preparing to go home, you ask them not to come back the next day, is there any legal comeback from that?

[Bender Rodriguez]

sick on fridays & mondays to extend the weekend ? ????

[Khun Yaaai]

44 minutes ago, Bender Rodriguez said:

sick on fridays & mondays to extend the weekend ? ????

That's usually the case lol. Or after eof year bonus payout.

[blackcab]

5 hours ago, recom273 said:

If you want to get rid of someone, surely there is a way - the employee turns up late, you give him a verbal warning, you wait until they go for lunch break and comes back a few mins late, you notice he’s not at his post, you give him a written warning - later in the afternoon they are slow, you give them another warning, expecting more enthusiasm, then at the end of his shift, you notice that they are already preparing to go home, you ask them not to come back the next day, is there any legal comeback from that?

 

Yes, the employee would take you to Labour Court and easily win their claim if you did that. It's quite a process to terminate an employee for a valid reason and not have to pay them severance.

 

I terminated an employee after numerous documented verbal and written warnings and some really atrocious behaviour on their part. The employee took the company to Labour Court and won. My mistake cost the company well over 100,000 baht.

[SbuxPlease]

I too have had this problem. Do you use a carrot or stick to solve it? Unfortunately Thai labor law doesn't give you too many sticks. So use carrots instead... give them a low salary and tie bonuses and incentives to using minimal sick days, always arriving and leaving on time, meeting every objective, etc.

 

Maybe too late to change the comp plan for this case, in which case cut your losses quickly as he's abusing you and maybe souring other staff as well. Unfortunately this is the state of things in the Thai labor system.

[Cake Monster]

Why are you wasting time and effort on this Guy ?

Unless he really is the best thing since sliced bread, just off him, and concentrate your efforts on the more important aspects of running a Business.

 

[thailand49]

????

You are running a business and asking this type of question!  You should have an employee policy stating conduct of behavior, number of vacations with sick days per year paid. A level of enforcement for policy violation based on your post not only is your employee out of control the reason you got none look in the mirror.

Edited September 17, 2020 by thailand49

[SbuxPlease]

5 minutes ago, thailand49 said:

????

You are running a business and asking this type of question!  You should have an employee policy stating conduct of behavior, number of vacations with sick days per year paid. A level of enforcement for policy violation based on your post not only is your employee out of control the reason you got none look in the mirror.

Thai labor law guarantees unlimited sick days, did you know that? So long as the employee can provide a doctor's note.

[thailand49]

10 minutes ago, SbuxPlease said:

Thai labor law guarantees unlimited sick days, did you know that? So long as the employee can provide a doctor's note.

Thanks, I didn't know that because I have no intend of starting or running a business here in lazy Thailand but if I did I would surely know that it is unlimited and after getting over the shock I would start to find the fine print as to why and how to prevent the abuse. If it isn't noted in their labor laws or is  outlined I would surely create my own company policy to outline how it should be applied. Although in Thailand no country is going to dictate all the terms that will put an employer like this guy in a position of not making money! 

 

As you noted " Doctors note " is a start if it doesn't say where I will dictate after a certain numbers of sick calls that the employee must see a Doctor not at a clinic but a Private hospital that itself the cost should put a stop or slow down the calls.

 

Even here in Thailand there are restrictions to those " unlimited " as I said If I was running a business I would have known it but since I don't never needed to take the time!  But would be interesting to see the Thai Labor Law regarding this issue?  There is always a loop hole!

 

[ThaiFelix]

School I worked for had a lot of teachers taking days off sick.  School stipulated doctors note or salary docked.  Doctors notes in clinics too easy to obtain, sometimes you dont even see the doctor to get the note, just the old "200 baht krup!".  School changed the rules and clinic notes no longer accepted, only from a hospital.  That reduced absenteeism by approx 50 %.  I dont know if this is legal or not to specify source but I worked for a big 'influential' chain and they always got away with murder.  They also had a yearly bonus (monthly salary increased by, not one of) that was calculated by your scores on a lot of factors ie sick days, lesson plans, observations etc.  This bonus had a great influence if there for the long haul but some teachers were just drifters who knew they could be in Vietnam or China etc next year so didnt give a sheet..

[Don Mega]

44 minutes ago, SbuxPlease said:

Thai labor law guarantees unlimited sick days, did you know that? So long as the employee can provide a doctor's note.

Yes but after 30 they are without pay.

 

A good incentive..

30 sick days it total per labour law.

0 to 10, no penalty.

10 to 20, lose 25% of bonus.

20 to 30 lose 50% of bonus.

 

and so on and so forth, good luck getting it past the unions though !!

[Don Mega]

29 minutes ago, thailand49 said:

Thanks, I didn't know that because I have no intend of starting or running a business here in lazy Thailand but if I did I would surely know that it is unlimited and after getting over the shock I would start to find the fine print as to why and how to prevent the abuse. If it isn't noted in their labor laws or is  outlined I would surely create my own company policy to outline how it should be applied.

 

 

Thai labour laws stipulate 30 paid sick days, there is no mention of "unlimited" but if they have exceeded the 30 and present a doc cert there is not a lot you can do cause if your fire them the labour court is gunna bend you over and do you raw with no lube.

[recom273]

3 hours ago, blackcab said:

 

Yes, the employee would take you to Labour Court and easily win their claim if you did that. It's quite a process to terminate an employee for a valid reason and not have to pay them severance.

 

I terminated an employee after numerous documented verbal and written warnings and some really atrocious behaviour on their part. The employee took the company to Labour Court and won. My mistake cost the company well over 100,000 baht.

Thats crazy - and also worthwhile knowing - the wife used to work in a Kindergarten and the boss treated them pretty badly, telling them they needed to work holidays without days in lue, dreaming up and introducing new conditions and withholding cash.

 

I always told her that she needed to go to keep a note of all the issues and we would go to the labour court should the need arise. I heard that some westerners had found it an easy process to get results for unfair dismissal - of course she never did and it still continues as the employees were so scared.

 

It seems that if the poster really wants rid, he must suffer the consequences and pay up, but try to cover his rear as much as possible.

 

[The Theory]

2 hours ago, blackcab said:

cost my boss well over 100,000 baht.

This is the way this type of guys live on. They actually don't want to have a job. Anywhere they go, they play the same game. 

[Lacessit]

9 hours ago, blackcab said:

You can require then to get a doctor's certificate every time they are off, even for a single day. This, however, is easy to obtain.

 

At this point you might want to consider terminating the employee before they reach 1 year of service as the termination costs at this point are quite low.

 

Considering you will probably be paying for their sick leave days anyway it's sometimes better to fix the problem early.

The medical certificate may be easy to obtain, but it will cost the Thai employee 30 baht and a lot of waiting time at a government hospital. Or less waiting time and 300 baht at a private hospital or clinic.

 

I once had a situation where one of my staff was having a sick day every Friday or Monday.  40 of them in 48 weeks. Obviously extracting the urine, he was as healthy as a horse. Previous manager had done nothing about it. I called him in, and said from now on I want a medical certificate for every sick day you have, or your pay gets docked. He transferred out of my department a fortnight later.

I did get a thank you and some voucher from my HR department for not taking one sick day in ten years.

I agree it's best to nip slackers early in the bud.

[bwpage3]

Do you have a written sick leave policy that was shown to him when he hired in?

 

If so, fire him.

 

If not, why not.

[Elkski]

Must be tempting for other employees to emulate him.  You let it go to 15?  Time to  act my man.  Is Thailand really so stupid?  I believe in giving a sick person time off and major sickness can happen.   I recall my first US Company policy in 1980's was a% each month or you got a warning.   I recall it was about 1.5 days a month.  I did use some because there was no penalty if you stayed under 1 day a month and no reward if you had zero.  My biggest deterrent was letting the other workers down and guilt.   

Maybe have a private meeting with this worker ASAP  amd after next absence have a meeting with all Co workers  so they can express the unfairness of this guy.    If you have a bonus system explain that  the other workers bonus gets lowered each time  someone doesn't pull their share.  

[Don Mega]

2 minutes ago, Elkski said:

  I recall my first US Company policy in 1980's was a% each month or you got a warning.   I recall it was about 1.5 days a month.  

Thai labour law is 2.5 days (paid) per month (30 days per year).

[thailand49]

2 hours ago, Don Mega said:

Thai labour laws stipulate 30 paid sick days, there is no mention of "unlimited" but if they have exceeded the 30 and present a doc cert there is not a lot you can do cause if your fire them the labour court is gunna bend you over and do you raw with no lube.

First I'm not the one who stated " unlimited " just the fact that one stated " unlimited " another "30 days" indicated no one has actually read the print although this is Thailand Labor laws are pretty simple they don't just say " unlimited " or " 30 days " and allow employees to do as they please thus forcing the employer to bend over and do the raw not even in Thailand.

 

Labor law is pretty simple including how to settle cases without going into court which in Thailand I seriously doubt their court system can handle the load of such cases most likely have a system like the West in " Arbitration " and if this guy dig will would find previous rulings that can guide him in establishing his policy on this matter which based on his own posting doesn't seem to know at all so that being the case he is already bending over without even firing anyone.

 

Employees aren't as smart as they think in labor what they usually think is they are slick even in Thailand. I'm not saying a employer should abuse an employee but a employer does have the right to ask for a simple explanation from the employee and if not stipulated in Labor Law "Any Doctor" then the employer can required the note to NOT come from one of those clinics like the required for ones Driver license where you walk in hand them 100 baht and out in one second! 

 

In the end, like I said I don't run a business in Thailand for reason such as this but if I did if an employee needed to use that many sick day in private I would be sitting them down to find out why and if the reason is legit I would be glad to help if not if an employee has the balls to get hired and start such a pattern labor law or not I would easily find a " performance " reason to rid that employee!

 

I just did a quick Google of the Thai labor law.  It states " unlimited " but only 30 days of pay, 3 days or more employer can request employee to produce a certificate from a qualify Doctor just that wording I find some room for interpretation.

 

I find the number of days for sick is very generous not surprising from a country like Thailand but I also find in reading there is a lot of way to get rid of an employee too!

Edited September 17, 2020 by thailand49

[Satcommlee]

2 consecutive days off are allowed without a sick note, and the employee could literally take mon,tue,thu,fri off and there not much you can do unless it eventually becomes "Gross" misconduct.

 

Its a common playbook for some employees and staff know there is not a lot you can do about it.

Best thing is to pay bonus based on attendance.

 

 

[elliss]

6 hours ago, Bender Rodriguez said:

sick on fridays & mondays to extend the weekend ? ????

 

 UK , civil servant's , come too mind .

   At least 13 weeks on the Moby dick , is the norm ..

 

 

Edited September 17, 2020 by elliss

[Don Mega]

5 hours ago, thailand49 said:

 

I just did a quick Google of the Thai labor law.  It states " unlimited " but only 30 days of pay, 3 days or more employer can request employee to produce a certificate from a qualify Doctor just that wording I find some room for interpretation.

 

 

Maybe you should google before going of on a tangent but thanks or confirming what I posted.

[Lacessit]

8 hours ago, Satcommlee said:

2 consecutive days off are allowed without a sick note, and the employee could literally take mon,tue,thu,fri off and there not much you can do unless it eventually becomes "Gross" misconduct.

 

Its a common playbook for some employees and staff know there is not a lot you can do about it.

Best thing is to pay bonus based on attendance.

 

 

Disagree. Photos of a sick employee, or a video, when they are swanning about instead of lying on a sick bed, are very effective tools. I had it done with one shirker, showed him the time/dated photo of him with his GF having a coffee, and said this is a final warning, I have grounds for dismissal. His attendance and work output improved dramatically.

IMO rewarding people with extra for doing what they are supposed to do anyway is making a rod for one's own back. Where does it end?

 

[thailand49]

4 hours ago, Don Mega said:

Maybe you should google before going of on a tangent but thanks or confirming what I posted.

Agree to disagree!  You being a bit of a hypocrite?

 

First before you jump into the conversation maybe look in the mirror and see where it started instead of coming in after the conversation then you seem not to be able to comprehend when that prior to my comment regarding the " unlimited " didn't come from me and my response didn't required me to google at all because it didn't really matter one bit to the response to another poster.

 

I posted because as I noted one said " unlimited " you said 30 days after my post I was interested in seeing what was in the Thai Labor law and actually found out and doesn't confirm your remarks you should have been more specific that the other poster noted " unlimited " he was right and wrong it is only for 30 days that it is paid and you are right and wrong that it is " unlimited " but only 30 days is paid which you didn't note or even know.

 

You responded to me not I, because you don't like what you hear it is a " tangent " on my part thanks for confirming you have and need to be right but I'm not going to say " tangent " but your responses are your opinion you might want to learn never too late in excepting others opinion and label them!

[Don Mega]

3 minutes ago, thailand49 said:

 

" but only 30 days is paid which you didn't note or even know.

 

 

Which part of "paid" in my post went over your head, or do you not know what the opposite without pay is ?