Crackdown on illegal foreign teachers: Heavy fines and deportation for those without work permits

[polpott]

Just now, PattayaJames said:

Fair enough, but staying long term in the UK costs mount up quickly if you are paying for accomodation buying or renting, council tax etc. Thailand IS cheaper overall and a whole lot more fun.

Definately a whole lot more fun here, I wouldn't dream of returning to the UK. But not cheaper. Luckily cost was never an issue when moving here and still isn't. Biggest single cost for me is my sons schooling which would be free in the UK.

[KhaoNiaw]

35 minutes ago, polpott said:

English. Why would anyone prefer American pronunciation?

But which English accent do you have? So we can know which one is the correct one?

[polpott]

8 minutes ago, KhaoNiaw said:

But which English accent do you have? So we can know which one is the correct one?

I have a standard English accent. You would have no idea which region I'm from.

 

You'll find that most English people who've had a university education tend to lose their regional accents and default to RP or received pronunciation.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2020 by polpott

[cyril sneer]

19 hours ago, polpott said:

I know they're not. I can live just as cheaply in the UK. eg 2 pints and a nice steak costs me less in the UK than it does here. There's no way that I could live on 40k baht in Thailand.

Where are you living?

 

2 pints and a steak is about 20 pounds down south 

[polpott]

27 minutes ago, cyril sneer said:

Where are you living?

 

2 pints and a steak is about 20 pounds down south 

In the North about £16. 650 baht. £20 = 800 baht. Try getting an Aussie steak and 4 bottles of beer or 2 pints of Stella for that in Pattaya.

[AndyFoxy]

On 10/12/2020 at 2:33 PM, polpott said:

I have self esteem which is why I wouldn't take a job for 40k. You can earn more than that working in McDonalds in the UK.

I used to got that. Now I get 10 time that purr month and I’m still teaching Engrish.

[J Town]

Two weeks from now this will all be in the rearview mirror and business will go back to usual.

[Mambowoman]

On 10/11/2020 at 5:57 PM, LazySlipper said:

 

Anything to substantiate this?

Been working here for almost 20 years so I've seen quite a few schools in my years here... never saw a teacher from an agency make more than 30k in a school ... well sometimes 35k... Most of the time the schools skim off 10-15 k off the salary offered by the gvt and they don't even pay vacations.

 

I see you are very active in almost anything that has to do with teaching here on TV and much of it is less than accurate. I don't bother pointing it out, but it seems you are a new teacher here and maybe you should sit back and get some experience before making yourself seem knowledgeable about education in Thailand...

 

 

 

Oh no, Teacherclaire is special! She is a real teacher, and very experienced in Thailand. She has much helpful advice. She is my best friend!

 

At my birthday was magnificent!

 

 

Lord, in the morning Thou shalt hear
My voice ascending high;
To Thee will I direct my prayer,
To Thee lift up mine eye—

[ramr]

On 10/11/2020 at 1:34 PM, 2530Ubon said:

No, it's not irrelevant, it's actually the entire point, which has seemed to have floated right past you. A degree in any field as a bare minimum has been accepted globally as a requirement for teachers. Are the youth of Thailand not entitled to a good education with qualified teachers?

 

What does having a degree from your average Thai university even mean?  I have seen some of the curriculum and training of Thai teaching programs, as well as the end results in the classroom, and am not in the slightest impressed.  Keep in mind we're talking about averages and not individuals here, but I would go so far as to compare a halfway intelligent secondary school graduate from a Western country favorably to a Thai with a B.A. or even M.A., which many will think racist, but I think just underscores the sad state of Thai education.  I do believe the system has failed these people, to respond to your somewhat pointed question.  I just think we have maybe have different ideas of what the most effective first steps are.  

 

Quote

Put it this way, would you allow a 22 year old with no degree, no qualifications of any kind or experience in education, to teach anything to your children?  Or how about the bar stool brigade that give teaching a shot for a semester (often they run away after collecting the first paycheck, they don't even stick out a 4 month contract). Were your school teachers unqualified and in the country primarily for a holiday? I don't think so.

 

Straw men, but I suppose stereotypes do come about for a reason.  I think my experience has also been different from yours.  Anyhow, your arguments against these types (and I agree with you that they are part of the problem), rest on maturity and eagerness to teach, not on having the proper paperwork.  I've seen these types as well, and more often that not, they do happen to have degrees from their home country.

 

 

Quote

 

It's time Thailand woke up and moved away from window dressing white farangs gesticulating wildly, screaming to be heard above 50 students crammed in a room (30% of whom are playing with their phones) whilst pointing frequently at a useless flashcard on the board. Bring in standards and smaller class sizes.  Encourage critical thinking and move away from learning by rote.

 

Agreed, but it's a solution that won't work in a vacuum.  Bring these requirements and standards in for Thai teachers as well, or you're just changing the educational experience for the 4-8 hours (maximum, and that's for an English Program!) these kids are seeing the foreign teacher.  What about the other 25 or so hours where they're spending so many of their class hours watching the Thai teacher copy to the board, then copy back from the board into their notebooks?  We are what we repeatedly do, so do the math on this.  I'm not sure what constitutes "qualified" Western teachers in your mind, but even if you had your way, their effectiveness will be hugely blunted by the usual pushback and lack of peer and administrative support for real international education standards from those who are comfortable with things just the way they are and don't want to change or be made to look bad.

Anyway, very few here will disagree with you on these points; they're pretty much accepted as truisms.  So tell us something new and valuable:  HOW would you accomplish this, given the current market incentives, cultural inertia/insularity, and closed-loop corruption that prevents effective independent oversight?  I'm not claiming to have the answers, but I can tell you that rearranging some deck chairs on the Titanic won't right the ship. 

This furor over farang teaching requirements is what I would call "compliance theater," pure and simple. 
As well as a classic misdirection maneuver and a bit of a xenophobic witch hunt to boot.  Sure, it will net some people in the end we can all agree need to go, so there's some small benefit there, I guess, but there is an opportunity cost to spending government energy/time/money on this and--if the point really is to improve actual education here--it's a poor use of resources in the context of the larger problems.  It's not about education; it's about finding another way for Thailand to avoid having to look in the mirror for a little while longer.

 

Quote

 

So many things could be done. Ensuring that the foreigners employed in schools here are actually qualified to do so is a baby step at best.

Agreed, but WHO will ensure that, and HOW will they enforce their authority?  “No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it”   --Albert Einstein.


 

Edited October 14, 2020 by ramr

[2530Ubon]

13 minutes ago, ramr said:

 

What does having a degree from your average Thai university even mean?  I have seen some of the curriculum and training of Thai teaching programs, as well as the end results in the classroom, and am not in the slightest impressed.  Keep in mind we're talking about averages and not individuals here, but I would go so far as to compare a halfway intelligent secondary school graduate from a Western country favorably to a Thai with a B.A. or even M.A., which many will think racist, but I think just underscores the sad state of Thai education.  I do believe the system has failed these people, to respond to your somewhat pointed question.  I just think we have maybe have different ideas of what the most effective first steps are. 

This post (as do all my other posts on his thread) refers to foreign teachers - specifically illegal ones. We were not talking about Thai teachers or legal foreign teachers. I didn't give any inkling as to 'what the most effective first steps are' to solving this. so i'm not sure what those different ideas are. 

 

[ramr]

25 minutes ago, 2530Ubon said:

This post (as do all my other posts on his thread) refers to foreign teachers - specifically illegal ones. We were not talking about Thai teachers or legal foreign teachers. I didn't give any inkling as to 'what the most effective first steps are' to solving this. so i'm not sure what those different ideas are. 

 

Everything has a context.  I was  pointing out the larger context that this post fits into and asserting that worrying about illegal foreign teachers in Thailand constitutes a pointless moral panic, which I have yet to see addressed by you.

 

So, yes, when considering this (non) issue, the Thai education system as a whole DOES matter.  

 

Quick question for further context: are students in Thailand currently protesting against the practices of their Western teachers or their Thai teachers?  Again, you'll probably consider this irrelevant, but for those of us who prefer the view from over the forest as opposed to amongst the trees, it does matter. 

 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Edited October 14, 2020 by ramr

[polpott]

7 minutes ago, ramr said:

Quick question for further context: are students in Thailand currently protesting against the practices of their Western teachers or their Thai teachers? 

They know no better.

[Lunchbob]

Give all Thai teachers, staff, administration IQ tests. Reassign jobs based on the scores.

[ramr]

3 hours ago, polpott said:

They know no better.

As young and inexperienced as they are, they know enough to know something's amiss.  Students have a keen nose for hypocrisy and b*lls**t in their teachers.

 

Edited October 14, 2020 by ramr

[polpott]

Just now, ramr said:

As young and inexperienced as they are, they know enough to know something's amiss.  Students have a keen nose for hypocrisy and <deleted> when it comes from the older generation.

They haven't enough experience to know what a good education or a good teacher is.

 

You don't miss what you've never had.

[2530Ubon]

3 hours ago, ramr said:

Everything has a context.  I was  pointing out the larger context that this post fits into and asserting that worrying about illegal foreign teachers in Thailand constitutes a pointless moral panic, which I have yet to see addressed by you.

Another one who's missed the point completely. How is it a pointless moral panic? Are you are suggesting that because most aspects of their education are dreadful, then all aspects should be?

 

I don't see anyone panicking, other than those illegal teachers, because this is an annual story. We see it time and time again, but you'll still find vast swathes of them teaching around the country.

 

This thread is about a specific subject, which we were discussing. If we only look at the 'view from over the forest' we'll never get back down to earth and look at the finer details. Your assertion that we shouldn't be talking about this, rather we should look at the 'big picture' seems a tad obtuse, and a little condescending.

[raiden8411]

Yeah they need many documents and high qualifications to sing songs and play games . Need a bachelor degree and salary 30 000 baht and if they move after a few months bad teacher  but if  a teacher care and want to stay long time and make a difference but don't have a degree to play games and songs no good.

[2530Ubon]

13 minutes ago, raiden8411 said:

Yeah they need many documents and high qualifications to sing songs and play games . Need a bachelor degree and salary 30 000 baht and if they move after a few months bad teacher  but if  a teacher care and want to stay long time and make a difference but don't have a degree to play games and songs no good.

That's why a qualified person is required... anyone can 'play games and sing songs'. It takes a TEACHER to understand learners and develop an effective pedagogy.

 

To an outsider, it may look like playing games. To those of us 'in the know', it's an effective group teaching strategy, enabling lower level learners to participate with the higher level ones, which is used alongside and prior to individual / paired teacher-student activities. Simply doing group activities alone is not enough.

[Wongkitlo]

12 hours ago, 2530Ubon said:

That's why a qualified person is required... anyone can 'play games and sing songs'. It takes a TEACHER to understand learners and develop an effective pedagogy.

 

To an outsider, it may look like playing games. To those of us 'in the know', it's an effective group teaching strategy, enabling lower level learners to participate with the higher level ones, which is used alongside and prior to individual / paired teacher-student activities. Simply doing group activities alone is not enough.

I was a piano teacher. I passed grade 3 which is the exam  you do after 4 years playing but that is the highest I achieved. I spent years playing professionally and then began teaching. My students were consistently getting high distinctions and were doing grades above what I had achieved. I left for a year and the school had a qualified teacher. When I came back my students had achieved very little. I know there are very good teachers commenting here but I would also say knowing your subject can substitute for having a degree.

[2530Ubon]

3 hours ago, Wongkitlo said:

I was a piano teacher. I passed grade 3 which is the exam  you do after 4 years playing but that is the highest I achieved. I spent years playing professionally and then began teaching. My students were consistently getting high distinctions and were doing grades above what I had achieved. I left for a year and the school had a qualified teacher. When I came back my students had achieved very little. I know there are very good teachers commenting here but I would also say knowing your subject can substitute for having a degree.

You don't technically need any qualifications to teach piano as it's not a regulated profession. We are talking about an academic subject - English teachers.

[Wongkitlo]

6 minutes ago, 2530Ubon said:

You don't technically need any qualifications to teach piano as it's not a regulated profession. We are talking about an academic subject - English teachers.

I was commenting about this statement 

'It takes a TEACHER to understand learners and develop an effective pedagogy". I was not trying to negate the input and qualifications of teachers but was saying that people with prior knowledge can make a contribution. Someone who is a native English speaker can spell, knows grammar and is  well read could make a contribution to an education system that seems to have a dearth of available teachers. 

 

[2530Ubon]

1 hour ago, Wongkitlo said:

I was commenting about this statement 

'It takes a TEACHER to understand learners and develop an effective pedagogy". I was not trying to negate the input and qualifications of teachers but was saying that people with prior knowledge can make a contribution. Someone who is a native English speaker can spell, knows grammar and is  well read could make a contribution to an education system that seems to have a dearth of available teachers. 

 

With respect, there is a reason you don't need to be qualified to teach piano - it's not that difficult. I taught myself how to play using youtube. Within a month i could play three pop songs and one classical piece fairly well (at least to my ears anyway!)

 

English is much more demanding, and an academic subject. Most native speakers are unable to tell you grammar rules, unqualified and uneducated 'teachers' can't spell, or create a test that actually determines a students ability. There are multiple famous quotes about 'half knowledge' - here are a select few;

 

“I ain’t one of those who believe that a half knowledge of a subject is useless, but it has been my experience that when a fellow has that half knowledge he finds it’s the other half which would really come in handy.”

-George Horace Lorimer

 

'The most dangerous people in the world are those with a grain of knowledge who promote themselves as authorities or authority figures. They only proceed to give half truthful, half right answers and in the end we all lose because of them.' -Contessa Bianca Bertilli

 

'They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.'

-Terry Pratchett, 2009, Equal Rites: (Discworld Novel 3)”, Random House

[Mr Meeseeks]

18 hours ago, 2530Ubon said:

That's why a qualified person is required... anyone can 'play games and sing songs'. It takes a TEACHER to understand learners and develop an effective pedagogy.

 

To an outsider, it may look like playing games. To those of us 'in the know', it's an effective group teaching strategy, enabling lower level learners to participate with the higher level ones, which is used alongside and prior to individual / paired teacher-student activities. Simply doing group activities alone is not enough.

Do Thais teaching Thai kids "understand learners and develop an effective pedagogy"?

[ramr]

On 10/15/2020 at 1:55 PM, Mr Meeseeks said:

Do Thais teaching Thai kids "understand learners and develop an effective pedagogy"?

 

Hi, I'm Mr. Meeseeks!  Look at my inconvenient question!

[owl sees all]

On 10/11/2020 at 8:16 PM, Disparate Dan said:

I hev bin teachin Inglish in Tailand now for more than 20 yeers and noone has ever kweried my kwalifications. Im not even from the pHilipnnes, which I carnt spell, but from Ingerland where the Inglish come from.

Seeriusly, I hav lifed here for more than 20 yeers and known many many teechers, but no more than a couple of them have cared a tuppeny damn about teechin – they are only wurried about there “beer vouchers”, as some one said, and/or about getting sum sort of visa that will keep them in LoS (sorry, LoS) for anuther few munths.

Also, many yeers ago, I paid for school lesuns for my sun, who was taut by a Filipino, and it wosnt any kind of English I recognise.

 

ps I am from UK with a degree in linguistics. English teaching in Thailand is a total disgrace, blame shared about equally by authorities and (most of) those who claim to teach. “Pay peanuts and get monkeys”?

 

sorry, I think I spelled 'LoS' wrong.

I think the authorities should target the bad ones and leave the others alone.

[2530Ubon]

21 hours ago, ramr said:

 

Hi, I'm Mr. Meeseeks!  Look at my inconvenient question!

 

On 10/15/2020 at 1:55 PM, Mr Meeseeks said:

Do Thais teaching Thai kids "understand learners and develop an effective pedagogy"?

Not inconvenient, just stupid. We are discussing foreign teachers, not Thai teachers.

 

That being said, if the Thai teachers are useless, does that mean the foreign teachers have to be too? We can only have standards for foreign teachers when you deem the Thai teachers are worthy enough? Please....

Edited October 17, 2020 by 2530Ubon

[elliss]

On 10/8/2020 at 1:37 PM, holy cow cm said:

Supposedly there are a lot of Cameroon guys masquerading as teachers here too. Here comes a new witch hunt.

 

     That is a racist statement .

      Hope the witch hunt , goes well .

      No racist remark , intended ..

 

Edited October 17, 2020 by elliss
spelling

[elliss]

On 10/16/2020 at 5:44 PM, owl sees all said:

I think the authorities should target the bad ones and leave the others alone.

     What is the criteria , for a good or bad teacher .

     The minimum acceptable salary ..?   

[DavisH]

My school has been informed that immigration will be visiting in the near future to check passports, work permits and teaching licences of all foreign teachers. This is in Nonthaburi, but appears to apply more widely and will be focussing on bilingual and english programs. 

[Wongkitlo]

On 10/15/2020 at 1:34 PM, 2530Ubon said:

With respect, there is a reason you don't need to be qualified to teach piano - it's not that difficult. I taught myself how to play using youtube. Within a month i could play three pop songs and one classical piece fairly well (at least to my ears anyway!)

 

English is much more demanding, and an academic subject. Most native speakers are unable to tell you grammar rules, unqualified and uneducated 'teachers' can't spell, or create a test that actually determines a students ability. There are multiple famous quotes about 'half knowledge' - here are a select few;

 

“I ain’t one of those who believe that a half knowledge of a subject is useless, but it has been my experience that when a fellow has that half knowledge he finds it’s the other half which would really come in handy.”

-George Horace Lorimer

 

'The most dangerous people in the world are those with a grain of knowledge who promote themselves as authorities or authority figures. They only proceed to give half truthful, half right answers and in the end we all lose because of them.' -Contessa Bianca Bertilli

 

'They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.'

-Terry Pratchett, 2009, Equal Rites: (Discworld Novel 3)”, Random House

With respect.  Would anyone really want to listen to what you have learnt from YouTube ? As you say yourself 'A little knowledge us a dangerous thing'. My little 3yo nephew has learnt to sing the alphabet song. Using your example of piano playing that  means he can speak English. 

You have completely missed my point. I was not discounting the importance of fully trained teachers. I was just advocating a system whereby people with an interest and ability could for example hold conversation classes  under the supervision of a qualified teacher.

Edited October 18, 2020 by Wongkitlo
Edit