Thai - How difficult?

[seancbk]

The tones are not that big a deal once you consider that in English we use tones as well.  The difference is we use tones to convey emotions with the word rather than the word actually changing.  For example in English you can say the word 'What' in different ways (using different tones) and it will sound different, it will still mean 'what' but the tone and emphasis will make it sound like you are expressing surprise, questioning, boredom, curiosity etc.  

Another big difference is English doesn't have written tone marks so when writing we have to describe the tone with which someone is speaking - "what; he said in a bored sounding voice"  "What! he exclaimed excitedly"  "What? he said in a very questioning sounding voice".

The question about speaking Thai is how much do you need to?  Living in Bangkok I go days without needed anything more than "Sawadee Krap", "Kop Khun Krap" and "Kor Tord"  ('Good morning' to security when I leave the condo, 'Thank you' to the girl at the BTS who takes my temperature and 'excuse me' (maybe) if the BTS is busy on my way to the office.  Once at the office all my Thai colleagues speak English, when we go for lunch I tell them what I want and they order in Thai.

 

[andre47]

18 minutes ago, seancbk said:

The question about speaking Thai is how much do you need to?  Living in Bangkok I go days without needed anything more than "Sawadee Krap", "Kop Khun Krap" and "Kor Tord"  ('Good morning' to security when I leave the condo, 'Thank you' to the girl at the BTS who takes my temperature and 'excuse me' (maybe) if the BTS is busy on my way to the office.  Once at the office all my Thai colleagues speak English, when we go for lunch I tell them what I want and they order in Thai.

You can exist very well without speaking Thai, but if you can speak Thai it opens for you a new world. Thai people will treat you quite different and you will understand this country much better. I don't regret that I learn Thai....

[Saltire]

Interesting question OP

 

I was an 'A' student in lanuages in high school where I studied French and Russian for 5 years. I can still almost get by in French but never got to use Russian in the real world, although I can still read and write a little, still I remember the alphabet.

 

Forward 30 years and I ended up in a job in Wuhan, PRC thinking, Mandarin? No problem. Wrong! After 2 years my speaking was still way to basic to be useful, and after a week there I met my wife who pretty much did all the talking for me, so I ended up putting in less effort. My colleagues and I had a running competition to see who could give the taxi driver our address the least number of times before being understood. The tones made it so difficult, often making some words unpronouncable for me.

 

Forward 10 years and I  moved to Cambodia so tackled Khmer, which is non-tonal and did ok on the speaking.

 

3 years ago it was time to learn Thai and so far so good. Not making excuses but now at 65 I have a memory problem. I need to learn new words by rote or writing them phonetically over and over. I can understand the gist of a conversation but not take part. As the only farang in the village it's been pretty immersive and the wife and I now speak 50/50 Thai and English. I am happy with my slow progress and surprise my wife and myself when I realise I can say something new in Thai. Tones so far are not too bad I find, but remembering words is a chore. I'd not attempt reading or writing, I just hope to get gradually more proficient.

 

My one big failure is trying to remember the months of the year!

 

[Pawpal]

3 hours ago, donnacha said:

Actually, I found it surprisingly easy to attain fluency in all those languages. Especially Navajo, that one was p*ss-easy.

 

Thanks! I needed a good laugh today. (I'd have replied in Navajo but my keyboard doesn't support it.)

[1FinickyOne]

2 hours ago, andre47 said:

Nowadays we can use software at our phone or our computer.

dictionary works well too... I also do not believe I will ever be able to write off the top of my head, speaking I am ok as tones seem to be just mimicking a sound and spoken in context really helps... 

[1FinickyOne]

55 minutes ago, Saltire said:

I need to learn new words by rote or writing them phonetically over and over.

 

55 minutes ago, Saltire said:

My one big failure is trying to remember the months of the year!

If I don't regularly use a word or hear it used conversationally, I have trouble remembering also... 

 

Funny - I almost quit many years ago because of the months... after Spanish, Enero, Febrero, being so simple as to nearly be English... to have to learn Mokkara.kom.. Gumpa etc.. was a wall too high... I still struggle on the later part of the year... 

[spidermike007]

My personal opinion, is that for most people who speak the Western languages, they are able to think in circles. Most of us are taught the art of creativity, and the virtues of an open mind. So, if you mispronounce or improperly state something, an effort will be made to try and stretch the mind, to figure out what you have just said, and what it means. This is especially true of Spanish. Not as much with French. 

 

It is not at all the case with Thai. If you do not nail it, it is your fault, and little effort can and will be made to accommodate your lack of perfection. It becomes a huge challenge when trying to speak or converse here. If the tones are not right, most Thai people are completely lost or unable, or unwilling to even venture a guess as to what you are saying.

 

The exact opposite is the case with most Spanish speaking people, nearly anywhere in Latin America. And that makes it so much more rewarding. 

[1FinickyOne]

1 hour ago, seancbk said:

The question about speaking Thai is how much do you need to?

It is not a matter of need but want... when I was 24 I travelled around the world for a year and surely did not pick up each language as I went and I functioned fine. 

 

Wanting to take communication to another level with people who do not speak English, has been my motivation. It is also an insight into the culture... 

 

I am sure you do fine - deaf people do ok too... 

[1FinickyOne]

2 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

If the tones are not right, most Thai people are completely lost or unable, or unwilling to even venture a guess as to what you are saying.

I find that if I am speaking in sentences, if I miss a tone or mispronounce one word or speak grammatically incorrect, most Thai understand and it does not present a hiccup.. 

 

That said, there are some people who I cannot understand 20% of what they are saying and same for me, but others, I can speak to all day and not have an issue.. 

[wolf81]

My opinion as someone who still is very basic in Thai.

 

I feel the language itself is pretty simple. More difficult concepts are often created by mixing words. So I feel you should be quite effective if you learn a quite limited set of words. 

 

Words don't change based on past, present, future tense, unlike in English, German, Dutch, French ... That itself is great. It seems to put something in past tense people just add "leao" (meaning: already) add the end of the sentence.

 

The alphabet isn't too difficult to learn. Though it does take a little while to get used to the ordering of vowels and consonants. But after some time reading the language becomes mostly automatic (for me). Though I'm still a quite slow reader I have to admit.

 

The most difficult aspect is the tones. Saying something in the wrong tone can give people a very puzzled look. For us Westerners some tones might seem very similar, hard for us to spot the difference or to utter a tone correctly. I guess one has to talk a lot with Thai people to practice and better understand tonal differences. 

[1FinickyOne]

2 hours ago, StevieAus said:

However hard Thai may be I am glad that English is my first language

ME TOO!!!

 

I cannot imagine trying to learn it with all the idiosyncrasies and colloquialisms...

 

I fly

You fly

We fly

They fly

 

He/she flies????????? 

 

Why is that??

[1FinickyOne]

2 hours ago, AlfHuy said:

That's how thais are. They tell you something but you never understand what they really mean.

I don't get this. What are you saying? 

[Stargeezr]

If you are from 2 to 5 years old, learning another language is simple.

But if you are over 50 it is just very difficult. I knew some French, and tried to

use that knowledge.  Ehhh.  The tones are hard, and if you try to learn

to read and write the language, it is likely even more confusing, Go to Thai

language classes, and learn to speak the language, Get some books if you want to

learn the writing, as learning some words are helpful, if you plan to drive a motorbike 

or vehicle.  Just have lots of patience, and be happy that there are so many

Thais in Thailand that want to learn English, and are quite helpful.

Geezer

[Kiujunn]

3 hours ago, uptome1946 said:

Here is a gloss of a sentence I just heard an hour ago.

 

"He do same not hear I speak".

 

Meaning "he is acting as if he didn't hear what I just said"

 

Which version is concise,  straightforward to the point, with a clear and simple structure?

 

And which version is a convoluted mess, full of redundancies, and makes you ask what must be going on in the brains of people who speak this language? 

[OneMoreFarang]

On 10/21/2020 at 11:09 AM, kenk24 said:

I have heard that Thai is the 5th most difficult language to learn

I think "Thai" includes more than pronunciation, letters, reading and writing.

Who wants to communicate with whom and how?

I.e. do you want to order some food?

Do you want to have a simple conversation with a girl?

Those are not too difficult, especially if those people are used to mispronunciation by foreigners.

 

If you want to have a business conversation it Thai and you want that Thais don't get the impression you learned the language on the street, that is a lot more difficult.

 

If you want to read and write Thai that is more difficult.

 

And if you want to understand news on TV and/or written i.e. in newspapers it is even more difficult. Because it's not enough to understand the language. To understand the news you also need to know lots of nicknames from prominent people because often these nicknames are used instead of the real names. Good luck with that one.

 

[Surelynot]

Took my wife almost an hour to teach me how to 'stupid'......that's how difficult (or how stupid I am?)

[TheFreqFlyer]

Very straightforward after a while. Also a lot easier than Vietnamese, which has a huge number of homonyms making it difficult to tell words apart unless you're very fluent. 

 

The Thai script is not an issue either...after a while you just "get it". Even if Vietnamese is written using "familiar" characters, all the accents and unusual pronunciations doesn't necessarily make it any easier for us.

 

I've lived in both countries and although I never put much effort into learning Vietnamese, I found that the locals there give up a lot more easily or seem less willing to speak their language with you than Thais are. Of course, the younger generation in Vietnam speak English at least as well as Thais, if not better. 

[TheFreqFlyer]

2 hours ago, andre47 said:

You can exist very well without speaking Thai, but if you can speak Thai it opens for you a new world. Thai people will treat you quite different and you will understand this country much better. I don't regret that I learn Thai....

Yep, I can vouch for that.

 

All the grumpy, complaining old farts (sorry to be so blunt) who complain Thais are super awful and racist people and that the Vietnamese are so open and welcoming, and "democratic" and other nonsense like this have absolutely no clue what they're talking about, because they don't speak the language.

 

Once you do speak Thai, it's a whole new world.

 

As I speak both Thai and Lao, I think I can compare the mindset and attitudes of people in both countries quite accurately.

 

My conclusion is both Thais and Laotians are similarly friendly; though Laotians tend to be more shy and less likely to approach foreigners unless you make a move first. Tribal people are quite suspicious of outsiders and may even run away if you try to ask them something! 

 

Thai officials (especially at land border crossings) tend to be much more consistently friendly and helpful than Laotians, who are more by the book and rigid, thanks to their Communist ideology.

 

Since I don't know much Burmese, Khmer or Vietnamese, I'm less able to evaluate locals' attitudes. 

 

In short, knowing the language of the country you are in changes everything.

[Bogbrush]

#

55 minutes ago, kenk24 said:

ME TOO!!!

 

I cannot imagine trying to learn it with all the idiosyncrasies and colloquialisms...

 

I fly

You fly

We fly

They fly

 

He/she flies????????? 

 

Why is that??

Reminds me of Benny Hill playing the Chinese chip shop owner. “I fly ships.” “Surely, Mr Moo, you sail ships?” “Yes, stupid woman, but before you can sail the ships, you must fly them...”  RIP

[rumak]

Here is the Rumak explanation :

 

Most everyone that has difficulty learning something fits this pattern.   You go to class to learn how

to play baseball.   You practice throwing the ball and catching it .  You do this for one hour a day.

After class you go out and play basketball for the rest of the day. 

Anytime you happen to come across a real baseball game you try to join in but do very poorly. 

 

Now substitute going to a Thai class for an hour a day.   Then returning to your Native speaking friends and lifestyle,  and tinglish speaking GF  for the rest of the day.

 

Children learn quickly because they are immersed in the language , as when they move to a foreign country and go to class and play with their foreign speaking friends .... hearing their language almost all day except for the minority of time when they are home with their English (or other language)

speaking parents.  The desire to learn/fit in is what stimulates the mind to hear/mimic/ and finally retain until it becomes more and more "natural" .

 

in my case it was the desire to interact in more interesting ways with more interesting women, that eventually led to me pronouncing words and saying groups of words in a fairly decent resemblance.   I never really "studied"  the rules,  and tones .   But as with children, the mind just

learns to repeat after hearing words and phrases many times.  Naturally i had to "practice often" with the opposite sex to gain ground.    It also helps to be a hansum man  lol , and though that may be fading....... the language skills gained have not.

[rumak]

32 minutes ago, Bogbrush said:

#

Reminds me of Benny Hill playing the Chinese chip shop owner. “I fly ships.” “Surely, Mr Moo, you sail ships?” “Yes, stupid woman, but before you can sail the ships, you must fly them...”  RIP

 

An asian woman got so fed up being ridiculed every time she ordered  "flied lice"  that she persisted and persisted until one day she went to the shop and the guy mimicked " you want flied lice , light? "

 

She stood up tall and told him straight , " NO !  I want Fried Rice ! ..... You PLICK  !

[rumak]

3 hours ago, andre47 said:

You can exist very well without speaking Thai, but if you can speak Thai it opens for you a new world. Thai people will treat you quite different and you will understand this country much better. I don't regret that I learn Thai....

 

This would be my answer as well ( to those who do not  want or "need"  to speak Thai.)   I respect that there are different strokes for different folks ,  and this is just one more example of that.

 

Having been here a long time ....... when i meet farangs (not often)  I am still quite sure i made the right decision to forego the sooo stimulating opinions and  prejudices of my fair skinned brothers

for the easily answered Thai greeting   "sabai dee mai "    .    

 

sabai deeeeeee,   krap

 

 

 

[CLW]

Obstacle is that you need to learn reading, writing and speaking at the same time.

I felt like back in elementary school and paused now for reading and writing.

But definitely it is the way to go if you have a lot of free time and patient, which I both don't have at the moment.

[Saltire]

I have read posts in the past that claim the opposite - i.e. knowing the language is something you may wish you hadn't when you hear Thais talking, possibly about you, assuming you can't understand.

 

Anyone come accross this?

 

In my few years in China when out and about shopping with my (Chinese) wife, she would often tell me traders immediately assuming she was a guide, would instigate a double price for the foreigner and a kickback for her. Needless to say they lost any sale after she spit venom at them.

 

[Bogbrush]

There have been a few posts here recommending Internet courses/electronic translators;  whilst I’m sure they have a place (particularly the courses) I am dubious, in that all those I have investigated use females and therefore “chan” as opposed to “pom”.  I understand using “pom” and why, and could adjust for that, but would the female tense cause any other difficulties further on in a sentence?

[TheFreqFlyer]

1 hour ago, Saltire said:

I have read posts in the past that claim the opposite - i.e. knowing the language is something you may wish you hadn't when you hear Thais talking, possibly about you, assuming you can't understand.

 

Anyone come accross this?

 

In my few years in China when out and about shopping with my (Chinese) wife, she would often tell me traders immediately assuming she was a guide, would instigate a double price for the foreigner and a kickback for her. Needless to say they lost any sale after she spit venom at them.

 

For better or worse, speaking the language helps you to really understand the culture. If anything, it's better you know what they're saying that way you can actually grasp what is going on. 

 

If you can't speak it, then you'll feel like I did years ago - that every Asian country is the same.

 

No matter whether you're in Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Myanmar or Vietnam...young local men (or just locals in general) will say: "Hey You" to grab your attention. 

[AlfHuy]

1 hour ago, rumak said:

Here is the Rumak explanation :

 

Most everyone that has difficulty learning something fits this pattern.   You go to class to learn how

to play baseball.   You practice throwing the ball and catching it .  You do this for one hour a day.

After class you go out and play basketball for the rest of the day. 

Anytime you happen to come across a real baseball game you try to join in but do very poorly. 

 

Now substitute going to a Thai class for an hour a day.   Then returning to your Native speaking friends and lifestyle,  and tinglish speaking GF  for the rest of the day.

 

Children learn quickly because they are immersed in the language , as when they move to a foreign country and go to class and play with their foreign speaking friends .... hearing their language almost all day except for the minority of time when they are home with their English (or other language)

speaking parents.  The desire to learn/fit in is what stimulates the mind to hear/mimic/ and finally retain until it becomes more and more "natural" .

 

in my case it was the desire to interact in more interesting ways with more interesting women, that eventually led to me pronouncing words and saying groups of words in a fairly decent resemblance.   I never really "studied"  the rules,  and tones .   But as with children, the mind just

learns to repeat after hearing words and phrases many times.  Naturally i had to "practice often" with the opposite sex to gain ground.    It also helps to be a hansum man  lol , and though that may be fading....... the language skills gained have not.

Everybody is "hansum" here, even if you look like "Catweazle".

The bigger the wallet the more "hansum" you look.

[KeeTua]

6 hours ago, andre47 said:

Reading and talking is doable, but I don't believe that I will be able to write Thai one day. The problem is that if you hear a syllable you cannot be sure how to write it. There are 3-5 different possibilities. You have to learn and remember the correct writing of each single word. Nowadays we can use software at our phone or our computer. That makes it a bit easier.  

The tones are also not easy, but in most situations you or your counterpart can catch the meaning from the context.

I also used to believe that writing would be nearly impossible to learn because of the use of different consonants for the same sound. The vowels themselves are easy. To learn to write a word it's mandatory that you know the tone rules, knowing the tone rules helps you narrow down the correct consonants to use and any tone marks that may be required.

 

After learning the tone rules it's now possible for me to write a word I'm not familiar with after hearing it spoken provided its spoken clearly enough to determine the tone. With a combination of luck and skill I can write it correctly maybe 50% of the time which isn't bad considering I used to think it would be impossible. I'm talking about relatively simple words. And the common words we use daily I can nail maybe 75% of the time.

 

At home we keep a whiteboard on the fridge for our shopping list and todo items. I get a kick out of writing in Thai and latter my wife will read it and do any corrections below it. Its a fun challenge.

 

So don't give up on the written part yet.

[KeeTua]

6 hours ago, jackdd said:

It doesn't matter much if you get the tones right, usually the context gives away what word you wanted to say and you will be understood.

This is very true. An important point for people not to get to hung up on the tones early on. If you can string enough words together people will usually figure out what you're saying.

[jingjai9]

My problem is remembering which words get which tones. I know in Thai they have the same word for rice and news. But I cannot remember which tone to use for each word. Rice is chao - is it rising or falling? How do you remember? I have some vocabulary but it is not of much use to me.