UK's Johnson says devolving powers to Scotland was 'a disaster'

[Stupooey]

4 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

I was you who claimed that Scotland joining the EU is no foregone conclusion. Make your mind up.

I do not understand why you Brexiteers get so upset with the idea of Scottish independence. After all you were warned that a vote to leave the EU risked the union breaking up. This obviously did not matter to you then so why does it matter now?

At the time it was dismissed under the "Project Fear" label, much like the possibility of not being able to agree a deal with the EU was.

[JonnyF]

3 minutes ago, Stupooey said:

At the time it was dismissed under the "Project Fear" label, much like the possibility of not being able to agree a deal with the EU was.

The truth is that nobody cared. Leaving the EU was important. The Scots leaving the UK was an irrelevance (in comparison) to most English Welsh and Northern Irish. 

 

The notion that we are desperate for them to stay is a falsehood. We just want their citizens democratic decision in 2014 to stand, not be sabotaged by the nationalist extremists in the SNP on the basis of spurious opinion polls and disingenuous rhetoric. 

 

The UK as a whole voted to leave. Scotland voted 2 years earlier to remain part of that Union. That's the way the cookie crumbles.

[soalbundy]

6 hours ago, JonnyF said:

I wish these Scots nationalists would drop the charade.

 

They don't want Independence like the UK electorate voted for in 2016.

 

What the Scots nationalists really want is to become a minnow in a group of 28 'states' in an increasingly federalist, undemocratic EU. That is far from Independence.

There is now a majority in Scotland for independence. They would have the same voting rights as all the other democratic countries in the EU block but that won't happen, they have already received a rejection I believe, still, things can change.

[RuamRudy]

22 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

The truth is that nobody cared. Leaving the EU was important. The Scots leaving the UK was an irrelevance (in comparison) to most English Welsh and Northern Irish. 

 

 

I wish someone would tell the seemingly endless stream of cabinet ministers appearing on TV at the moment trying desperately to backtrack on our useless PM's words, because they seem hell bent on keeping Scotland servile. Maybe they appreciate its value to the rest of the UK more than you do? 

[JonnyF]

6 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

There is now a majority in Scotland for independence. They would have the same voting rights as all the other democratic countries in the EU block but that won't happen, they have already received a rejection I believe, still, things can change.

A majority based on some dodgy opinion poll in a sainsbury's cold and windy carpark ? Biased SNP pollsters asking irritared people loaded questions while putting shopping in their boot and wishing the pollster would just leave them alone? "5 no's in a row ? Nae problem. Make that one a Yes. Tick".

 

Very scientific. 

 

Voting rights? Yeah the same voting rights as the others. The same right to vote for Von Der Leyen as every other EU citizen. None.

[JonnyF]

16 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

I wish someone would tell the seemingly endless stream of cabinet ministers appearing on TV at the moment trying desperately to backtrack on our useless PM's words, because they seem hell bent on keeping Scotland servile. Maybe they appreciate its value to the rest of the UK more than you do? 

If Boris quotes are true (thats a big if) it's a political gaffe. Nothing more.

 

Most of the citizens of the uk still don't care if the Scots leave. When asked, you stayed. Get over it. You extreme nationalists are a minority thankfully.

[RuamRudy]

6 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

OK so here's my suggestion for y'all.

 

Four national parliaments, pick a city for the English one. Manchester, Birmingham seems to be the logical two choices.

 

Get rid of the House of Lords, which even as much as I love you guys, is totally nuts. Replace it with a Senate with say, 50 members each from each of the four countries. 

The House of Commons composition is still based on population.

 

Then start afresh on what powers should be ceded, not devolved from the national parliament's.

 

Then maybe you really would have a structure that might keep you all together, I hope!

 

One of the many promises made in 2014 to keep the Scots pliant was, in the event of a no vote, the closest thing possible to a federal UK. Like the other promises, that was ditched the day after the vote was tallied. 

 

Of the 650 odd MPs in the HoC, around 550 represent English constituencies. Party politics has broken down in the UK, or at least in Scotland and, to a lesser extent, Wales, so now we have regional differences rather than political differences at play. 

 

At the moment, the English decide the direction of the UK irrespective of the wishes of the other countries in the Union. I see no way that this could be changed without the dissolution of the UK. 

[RuamRudy]

12 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

A majority based on some dodgy opinion poll in a sainsbury's cold and windy carpark ? Biased SNP pollsters asking irritared people loaded questions while putting shopping in their boot and wishing the pollster would just leave them alone? "5 no's in a row ? Nae problem. Make that one a Yes. Tick".

 

Very scientific. 

 

Voting rights? Yeah the same voting rights as the others. The same right to vote for Von Der Leyen as every other EU citizen. None.

 

Do you have evidence that the polls fail to meet standards? Big if true, fake news if not. 

[vogie]

32 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

There is now a majority in Scotland for independence. They would have the same voting rights as all the other democratic countries in the EU block but that won't happen, they have already received a rejection I believe, still, things can change.

The latest opinion poll (if they are to be believed) shows that support for the SNP partitioning of the UK is waining, let's not forget that if you admit that you are a Scot and admit that you are in favour of separation you will be branded a traitor by many of the Scots Nationalists. What the Scots admit to and what they vote for may be two different things.

The latest opinion poll has now dropped to 51% 'yes' and 49% 'no'.

 

[RuamRudy]

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

The latest opinion poll (if they are to be believed) shows that support for the SNP partitioning of the UK is waining, let's not forget that if you admit that you are a Scot and admit that you are in favour of separation you will be branded a traitor by many of the Scots Nationalists. What the Scots admit to and what they vote for may be two different things.

The latest opinion poll has now dropped to 51% 'yes' and 49% 'no'.

 

 

Why would Scots in favour of separation be branded traitors by independence supporters? 

 

Could it be that you are always so desperate to inject the same bitterness and hatred we saw from Brexiteers and Vote Leave into the Scottish independence debate that you trip yourself up? 

[RuamRudy]

20 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

 

Most of the citizens of the uk still don't care if the Scots leave. When asked, you stayed. Get over it. You extreme nationalists are a minority thankfully.

 

Not true. Most Scots voted to leave the UK in 2014. The vote was tipped in favour of No by English and EU national voters to whom the franchise was extended. 

[RayC]

5 hours ago, stevenl said:

Brexit, looking at the scottish vote there, could have a big impact on a decision like this. So IMO a rerun after brexit is very much justified. When circumstances change dramatically decisions can change.

Agree entirely

5 hours ago, stevenl said:

 

Scotland joining the EU or not is not part of the discussion, 

But it is, and imo it is the sole justification for re-running a referendum so soon after the last one. Imo the question in any new referendum should be along the lines of, 'Should Scotland leave the UK and rejoin the EU?'.

 

I have stated before that I am not (generally) in favour of referendums, as I believe that they often cause far more problems than they solve. However, if they are to be held, then the result must be respected and be binding for a significant period of time (a generation; +/- 20 years seems to me a reasonable rule of thumb). 

 

And yes, I do believe that this should also apply to the Brexit referendum. 

[vogie]

15 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Why would Scots in favour of separation be branded traitors by independence supporters? 

 

Could it be that you are always so desperate to inject the same bitterness and hatred we saw from Brexiteers and Vote Leave into the Scottish independence debate that you trip yourself up? 

Let's look at the evidence, only about 50% of Scots want separation, my guess is that on paper it would be a lot less. It is the Scots who are not in favour of separation that are branded thus, do you accept that the enthusiasm for separation is now beginning to wain.

"Support for Scottish independence has narrowed according to the latest poll on the matter.

A survey carried out by YouGov last week asked more than 1,009 voters north of the Border whether Scotland should become an independent country.

The results, published today, found 51% said Yes and 49% opted for No, once respondents who didn't offer an answer were excluded.

That means support for independence has dipped slightly since the last YouGov survey on the subject, which put Yes at 53%."

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/scottish-independence-poll-shows-yes-22999638

Edited November 18, 2020 by vogie

[RuamRudy]

12 minutes ago, vogie said:

Let's look at the evidence, only about 50% of Scots want separation, my guess is that on paper it would be a lot less. It is the Scots who are not in favour of separation that are branded thus, do you accept that the enthusiasm for separation is now beginning to wain.

"Support for Scottish independence has narrowed according to the latest poll on the matter.

A survey carried out by YouGov last week asked more than 1,009 voters north of the Border whether Scotland should become an independent country.

The results, published today, found 51% said Yes and 49% opted for No, once respondents who didn't offer an answer were excluded.

That means support for independence has dipped slightly since the last YouGov survey on the subject, which put Yes at 53%."

 

 

I have been called a traitor and treasonous on TVF because I support the dissolution of the UK. I don't recall you rushing to my defence on those occasions, although I must admit that I was not so bothered by it - I wear it like a badge of honour. 

 

It is hardly surprising that the Daily Rangers is clutching its pearls at the sight of a minor fluctuation in polling intent, but taken in context, with not a single poll in 2020 showing majority support for the union, they are on a hiding to nothing, I am afraid. Let's be honest - when was the last thing to come from Downing Street which made you think 'yes, that will bring the UK together'?

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by RuamRudy

[RuamRudy]

Duplicate post

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by RuamRudy

[RuamRudy]

17 minutes ago, RayC said:

Agree entirely

But it is, and imo it is the sole justification for re-running a referendum so soon after the last one. Imo the question in any new referendum should be along the lines of, 'Should Scotland leave the UK and rejoin the EU?'.

 

I have stated before that I am not (generally) in favour of referendums, as I believe that they often cause far more problems than they solve. However, if they are to be held, then the result must be respected and be binding for a significant period of time (a generation; +/- 20 years seems to me a reasonable rule of thumb). 

 

And yes, I do believe that this should also apply to the Brexit referendum. 

 

The Good Friday Agreement actually defines clearly the circumstances and conditions under which a reunification poll can be held. It states that in the event of the status quo being chosen, another poll cannot be held of a generation, which it goes on to define as lasting a minimum of 7 years. 

 

But that aside, if we went ahead with your +/- 20 year definition, what would be your approach to dealing with a consistent majority polling in favour of Yes? Would you just tell them that now was not the time? Hardly democratic to deny the will of the majority, is it?

 

In the Holyrood elections next spring, there are suggestions that the SNP might get over 50% of the votes. Add to that the votes for the Greens, the SSP and ISP, all overtly independence supporting parties, and the numbers could reach 55% of votes going to independence supporting parties. Should we still wait for a protracted period because someone in another country deems it so?

[Lacessit]

19 hours ago, stevenl said:

He should have kept his mouth shut.

Asking Johnson to keep his mouth shut is like asking Trump to stop tweeting.

I don't have a horse in this race. Having said that, the Scots are entitled to ask what benefits being part of the UK consist of, and why they should swear allegiance to royalty that spent a lot of its time in the past trying to invade them.

[soalbundy]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

The latest opinion poll (if they are to be believed) shows that support for the SNP partitioning of the UK is waining, let's not forget that if you admit that you are a Scot and admit that you are in favour of separation you will be branded a traitor by many of the Scots Nationalists. What the Scots admit to and what they vote for may be two different things.

The latest opinion poll has now dropped to 51% 'yes' and 49% 'no'.

 

I demand a recount, get the lawyers in. No I am not Scottish (grandmother was) Essex boy.

[GinBoy2]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

 

One of the many promises made in 2014 to keep the Scots pliant was, in the event of a no vote, the closest thing possible to a federal UK. Like the other promises, that was ditched the day after the vote was tallied. 

 

Of the 650 odd MPs in the HoC, around 550 represent English constituencies. Party politics has broken down in the UK, or at least in Scotland and, to a lesser extent, Wales, so now we have regional differences rather than political differences at play. 

 

At the moment, the English decide the direction of the UK irrespective of the wishes of the other countries in the Union. I see no way that this could be changed without the dissolution of the UK. 

Well the scenario you describe is exactly the reason the US framers designed the Senate to have 2 Senators per State regardless of population, so no populous State could ride roughshod over another.

 

Itty Bitty South Dakota with its 800K  or Wyoming with its 500K populations have as much clout as California with its 40M. 

 

Dump, and I say this with a love of your country, the absurd House of Lords and introduce a Senate, or call it what you want to rebalance the power between the nations

Edited November 18, 2020 by GinBoy2

[Knocker33]

They should have a referendum in England. Who wants rid of the winging sweaty socks. 

[evadgib]

2 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Asking Johnson to keep his mouth shut is like asking Trump to stop tweeting.

I don't have a horse in this race. Having said that, the Scots are entitled to ask what benefits being part of the UK consist of, and why they should swear allegiance to royalty that spent a lot of its time in the past trying to invade them.

Trying?

They've had their arrses kicked more times than Charlie Chaplin????

[evadgib]

1 hour ago, GinBoy2 said:

Well the scenario you describe is exactly the reason the US framers designed the Senate to have 2 Senators per State regardless of population, so no populous State could ride roughshod over another.

 

Itty Bitty South Dakota with its 800K  or Wyoming with its 500K populations have as much clout as California with its 40M. 

 

Dump, and I say this with a love of your country, the absurd House of Lords and introduce a Senate, or call it what you want to rebalance the power between the nations

Moves are afoot to void the 1707 act of union. This would be a game changer if it were to succeed.

HTH

[Mavideol]

23 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

I'll wade into this as an American Anglophile, who has no skin in this game but has loved your country from a small boy. You can blame the old BBC World Service on shortwave for that!

 

It was, and is a mistake, not because of the concept of devolving powers is bad, but it's implementation.

 

The US system is not without its faults, but it's exactly the opposite to the UK. Powers are ceded from the States to the center in Washington.

Whereas in the UK London doles out powers arbitrarily to Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast as they see fit, and not always the same powers, a US State does have control over most aspects of daily life, including raising taxes.

 

Then you get to the 800lb gorilla in the room, that England has no equivalent to the devolved powers of the other nations.

 

The way to defuse all of this is not denial of referendums for independence, but a constitutional meeting to figure out how you manage, what has been probably the most successful  multi country coalition in European history into the 21st century.

 

Well thats the view from a real lover of the United Kingdom, I just hope you guys figure it out without destroying the beauty of what I have loved all my life

too late mate.... they did it and keep adding more nails to the coffin  555

[Mavideol]

10 hours ago, soalbundy said:

It could be the last straw, how ironic, blasting the EU saying we want our country back then denying a country within its own realm of power the same right. The UK  has left a power block for spurious reasons and is now about to get even smaller, wait now for Wales to start getting fidgety.

I asked that same  question around 3 months ago @vogie@transam and a couple others, they ignored it as it was not a convenient question... old saying from Confucius or a Bible  “Don’t do to others what you don’t want them to do to you”

 

Some say that this phrase was coined by Confucius, whereas others believe that it comes from a verse in the Bible. The truth is that regardless, it’s a golden rule from which moral, ethical and legal codes emerge.

[Mavideol]

8 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

I was you who claimed that Scotland joining the EU is no foregone conclusion. Make your mind up.

I do not understand why you Brexiteers get so upset with the idea of Scottish independence. After all you were warned that a vote to leave the EU risked the union breaking up. This obviously did not matter to you then so why does it matter now?

next is NI joining Ireland and become one (1) independent country .... after that the UK will be England and (maybe) Wales (what about Isle of Man does it count  555)

[Mavideol]

8 hours ago, luckyluke said:

It seems you feel good to claim that the states member of the E.U. are no more independent. 

Fair enough. 

As Belgian I feel independent, and to be sure we really are, I checked the list of Independent Countries, we are still on it. 

Now it can also be a matter of perception. 

This being an individual feeling, one can be what one which to be, regardless of the facts. 

yeahhhh just look at Trump, is the perfect example 555

[vogie]

9 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

I asked that same  question around 3 months ago @vogie@transam and a couple others, they ignored it as it was not a convenient question... old saying from Confucius or a Bible  “Don’t do to others what you don’t want them to do to you”

 

Some say that this phrase was coined by Confucius, whereas others believe that it comes from a verse in the Bible. The truth is that regardless, it’s a golden rule from which moral, ethical and legal codes emerge.

I thought the quote was 'do unto others as you have them do unto you'

Now looking at this logically, if I did to the Scots Nats as the do unto me, I would be ignoring democratic voting now wouldn't I, and I don't want to get as bad as them.

Just remember that many a mickle makes a muckle.

[Mavideol]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

I thought the quote was 'do unto others as you have them do unto you'

Now looking at this logically, if I did to the Scots Nats as the do unto me, I would be ignoring democratic voting now wouldn't I, and I don't want to get as bad as them.

Just remember that many a mickle makes a muckle.

again you are distorting the truth, you know very well the Scots deserve the same right to leave the UK as the UK has to leave the EU

[stevenl]

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

I thought the quote was 'do unto others as you have them do unto you'

Now looking at this logically, if I did to the Scots Nats as the do unto me, I would be ignoring democratic voting now wouldn't I, and I don't want to get as bad as them.

Just remember that many a mickle makes a muckle.

You mean you want to send Scotland away and go independent from the shackles of England.

Edited November 18, 2020 by stevenl

[Neeranam]

21 hours ago, 2530Ubon said:

Well, it just so happens that i do have those numbers, there were thousands. It's not academic, it's recorded history. Also, this isn't an "angle of attack" - It's just what happened at the time. There is nothing to attack anyway, it's not a bad idea to join as one nation. It would be madness for Scotland to try and go it alone - both of our nations would suffer because of it.

 

Many a nationalist has given a speech such as yours "our country was sold because of a few rich businessmen who ruled the country" - and these kinds of overtones make people turn out to vote, even though they are patently false. Thousands died on the journey there, these numbers can't be hidden! Thousands invested everything and lost.

The same thing happened with Brexit - catchy slogans about how much money the EU stole and how we can plow it all back into the NHS. It's all BS... Look at history and judge it by the facts.

What country are you from?