Britain to ban new petrol cars by 2030 on road to net zero emissions

[3NUMBAS]

batteries are progressing all the time and exchangeable packs will be posible ,and hydrogen is also possible .although aussies are unlikely to stop using diesel due to their long distance driving in the outback where E would be useless

[7by7]

Driving a milk float makes you impotent: A man who knows nothing about electric cars answers your questions

Quote

PROPER cars will be illegal from 2030, and men will be forced to drive electric vehicles that shrink their genitalia. Here Nathan Muir answers your questions about how wrong this is. 

 

 

[placeholder]

On 11/19/2020 at 5:03 PM, quake said:

All very true.

But the real bad boy is the industrial cattle framing that's destroying the rain forests.

but the governments around the world , like the scapegoat oil  is evil  BS for the average Joe in the street.

 

You sure about that?

How much does animal agriculture and eating meat contribute to global warming?

The three largest contributors to global greenhouse gas emissions are as follows:

1. Burning fossil fuels for electricity and heat (31% of annual global human greenhouse gas emissions);
2. Transportation (15%); and
3. Manufacturing (12.4%).

The fourth largest contributor is animal agriculture accounting for 11% of greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions according to estimates from the World Resources Institute, as shown in Figure 1.

https://skepticalscience.com/animal-agriculture-meat-global-warming.htm

[placeholder]

On 11/19/2020 at 6:52 PM, 7by7 said:

 

Your link and figures only apply to Tesla; the most expensive option.

 

Whether it's 8 to 17 hours or 7 to 11 hours, both support my argument about the current unsuitability of electric cars for regulars long journeys. 

 

Even more so when the first line in your link is "It can take anywhere from one hour to seven days to fully charge a Tesla!"

 

OK, dependent on model, the Tesla Superchargers can charge a range of up to 172 miles in 15 minutes, up to 80% in 40 minutes. But in the UK I have only ever seen these in some, by no means all, motorway services.

 

Your link also says "Superchargers have an incredibly fast charging speed, but they can put a lot of stress on the car’s battery. So, using an at-home charger is best for everyday recharging."

 

Again, not a lot of use for those of us making regular, long distance trips for work involving hotel stays in different locations for up to four nights!

 

As for cxharging at home, once back there, the length of time depends on the method used:

At-Home Charging Option	Model 3 Standard Range Plus Charge Time	Model 3 Performance Charge Time	Model 3 Long Range Charge Time
NEMA 5-15	3.5 days	4.5 days	4.5 days
NEMA 14-50	8.3 hours	10.7 hours	10.7 hours
Wall Connector	7.3 hours	7.3 hours	7.3 hours

Because we know that if one thing is true about technological innovation, is that it gets widespread adoption, It just stays in a tiny niche. Like the iphone successfully suppressing android phones.

[placeholder]

On 11/19/2020 at 5:15 PM, natway09 said:

Any stupid politician  (& he is stupid) along with being a ditherer can get up & sprout this unachievable rubbish.He did not even swallow the bitter pill over Covid until 5 months after he should have.

Main Points  :

Only of use if 98% of energy produced in the UK is of a non fossil nature (massive expenditure)

Battery raw ingredients, reliability, life span, & range are 30years away (at least)

Dry battery disposal & recharging is a monumental task (India have been working on this for 14 years & are

still shaking their heads at the enormity of the vast quantities & the pollution created to re cycle

Cost to the taxpayer is unachievable without a 24% tax collection reduction (will not happen)

NZ may be able to achieve this target with their vast amount of Hydro & geothermal supplies of energy but is also capital intensive even for a small population

:

"Only of use if 98% of energy produced in the UK is of a non fossil nature (massive expenditure)"

In 2019, renewable production generated 37.9% of total electricity.^[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_the_United_Kingdom#:~:text=The proportion of electricity generated,grew to 33% in 2018.

Ya think in 11 years those numbers might not change a bit? And why would it only be useful if at 98%? Why is that the cutoff point?

 

Battery raw ingredients, reliability, life span, & range are 30years away (at least)

Maybe you're living 10 years in the past?

It's not real clear what you're trying to say year. Do you know that battery prices have declined by about 90% in the last 10 years?

Prices have declined by nearly 90% since 2010 in the case of lithium-ion batteries for electric vehicles, and by around two-thirds over the same period for stationary applications, including electricity grid management. Developing better and cheaper electricity storage is a major challenge for the future.

https://www.iea.org/news/a-rapid-rise-in-battery-innovation-is-playing-a-key-role-in-clean-energy-transitions

As for durability:

 Consumer Reports estimates the average EV battery pack’s lifespan to be at around 200,000 miles, which is nearly 17 years of use if driven 12,000 miles per year.

https://www.myev.com/research/ev-101/how-long-should-an-electric-cars-battery-last#:~:text=Consumer Reports estimates the average,driven 12%2C000 miles per year.

 

Tha's all the stuff I have patience to correct. You might try supporting your contentions with actual evidence next time.

 

 

 

 

[impulse]

21 hours ago, Inepto Cracy said:

23 hours ago, impulse said:

 

Or you can get an inverter based 3 phase converter/ Variable Frequency Controller.  Lots of smaller factories use them to drive 3 phase motors on their single phase systems.

 

You'll still be limited by your home wiring.  But keep in mind that most typical days, you'll only be driving 30 miles and won't need to recharge 100%.  Maybe 10%?

 

I also anticipate that 10 years is enough time for some entrepreneurial types to come up with a standardized battery and a network where you can slide your dead battery out and slide a new one in, paying based on how low your trade-in battery is.  That gives you pretty much the same range as an ICE car.  It's already happening for some e-scooters- where they're building a network of battery swap stations.

 

Edit:  I'd add that standardizing the battery configuration would allow for upgrading batteries when technology improves, and would free the consumer from being tied to a specific battery brand- creating competition in aftermarket batteries and networks to swap out batteries far from home.

 

Expand  

......

I let the PEA officers work out what I need, as it is their island and Thailand electricity standards are a bit strange to me anyway. I pay them to supply me with electricity, it is their job to supply it, well not really if you live on the west coast of Phuket. ( See the article of Kamala having a three day power cut.)

 

That's only true to the extent that they supply you with a certain amount of power.  They don't tell you what size or type of A/C (or how many), water heater or water pump you'll need.  An auto charging system is simply another appliance.  The inverter based VFC looks no different than a really big inverter based air conditioner to the PEA.  It's all installed on your side of their meter- not theirs.

 

Unless, of course, you're looking for excuses not to do something you don't want to do...  There's nothing wrong with that, BTW.  Up to you.  But others are looking for solutions.

 

[quake]

9 hours ago, placeholder said:

You sure about that?

How much does animal agriculture and eating meat contribute to global warming?

The three largest contributors to global greenhouse gas emissions are as follows:

1. Burning fossil fuels for electricity and heat (31% of annual global human greenhouse gas emissions);
2. Transportation (15%); and
3. Manufacturing (12.4%).

The fourth largest contributor is animal agriculture accounting for 11% of greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions according to estimates from the World Resources Institute, as shown in Figure 1.

https://skepticalscience.com/animal-agriculture-meat-global-warming.htm

Ok i had a look.

But can't find any data on the difference between Co2 as a green house gas and methane as a green house gas in those figures you quote, am i right in saying methane is many times worse than Co2 in

the air ? i could be wrong.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 11/21/2020 at 3:49 AM, impulse said:

 

That's only true to the extent that they supply you with a certain amount of power.  They don't tell you what size or type of A/C (or how many), water heater or water pump you'll need.  An auto charging system is simply another appliance.  The inverter based VFC looks no different than a really big inverter based air conditioner to the PEA.  It's all installed on your side of their meter- not theirs.

 

Unless, of course, you're looking for excuses not to do something you don't want to do...  There's nothing wrong with that, BTW.  Up to you.  But others are looking for solutions.

 

Just think if they'd gone hydrogen instead of batteries and none of this debate would be happening, and batteries would be no more of a problem than currently.

Hydrogen is the better way, IMO, but like Betamax ( which was the better technology IMO ) the less good system won ( so far- perhaps there is still time for sense to strike ).

[thaibeachlovers]

On 11/21/2020 at 11:51 AM, quake said:

Ok i had a look.

But can't find any data on the difference between Co2 as a green house gas and methane as a green house gas in those figures you quote, am i right in saying methane is many times worse than Co2 in

the air ? i could be wrong.

 

As  I understand it, methane is a worse greenhouse gas and if the permafrost melts we are all in trouble, but the most common greenhouse gas currently is water vapour.

 

Google tells us "They estimated that water vapor accounts for about 50% of Earth's greenhouse effect, with clouds contributing 25%, carbon dioxide 20%, and the minor greenhouse gases and aerosols accounting for the remaining 5%."

 

Why do we never hear about water vapour? Perhaps because water vapour can't be taxed.

[Kwasaki]

On 11/19/2020 at 5:23 AM, placeholder said:

Extremely misleading information. First off, what you don't mention is that once a Tesla battery reaches 80%, it automatically slows down the charging to protect the battery.

Second, your figures are valid only if you use the slowest home charging option.

If you use a Nema 14-50 charger and your battery is empty it will take between 8-17 hours to charge your battery.

And finally if you get a Wall Connector it will take between 7-11 hours to fully charge an empty battery.

https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/how-long-does-it-take-to-charge-a-tesla

Additionally if you charge your battery to 80% times are much shorter. And if the battery isn't entirely empty, which would obviously be most of the time, charging time will also be shorter

Good post, in the future of battery power I was thinking while the electric motor was being driven by one battery why couldn't it be charging a second battery.

My thought is producing car that recharges itself.

[stevenl]

I don't think this is going to happen by 2030, nor that the goal is realistic. But it puts pressure on all involved to come with solutions, which is good.

[jak2002003]

What will they do with the millions of old cars? Can they be recycle or will they we shopped out and dumped in poor countries like most of UK's waste?

[thaibeachlovers]

8 minutes ago, stevenl said:

I don't think this is going to happen by 2030, nor that the goal is realistic. But it puts pressure on all involved to come with solutions, which is good.

Just going electric isn't the problem- they already have the technology to put electric motors in the wheel hubs and a battery where the motor used to be- can keep same car.

 

The problem is electricity supply and battery manufacture/ disposal. I doubt any country could supply enough electricity for an all electric vehicle fleet without massive investment that would, IMO, bankrupt the country.

Hydrogen solves all the problems and the technology already exists. Just need solutions for distributing it and whether to use directly in the motor or use fuel cells.

[stevenl]

6 minutes ago, jak2002003 said:

What will they do with the millions of old cars? Can they be recycle or will they we shopped out and dumped in poor countries like most of UK's waste?

They will decrease in value, but since this is a measure regarding new cars, cars sold before implementation will not be affected.

[thaibeachlovers]

6 minutes ago, jak2002003 said:

What will they do with the millions of old cars? Can they be recycle or will they we shopped out and dumped in poor countries like most of UK's waste?

Cars can be converted quite easily with existing technology. Replace wheel hubs with electric motors and batteries go where the motor was. I saw a documentary about that years ago.

[stevenl]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Just going electric isn't the problem- they already have the technology to put electric motors in the wheel hubs and a battery where the motor used to be- can keep same car.

 

The problem is electricity supply and battery manufacture/ disposal. I doubt any country could supply enough electricity for an all electric vehicle fleet without massive investment that would, IMO, bankrupt the country.

Hydrogen solves all the problems and the technology already exists. Just need solutions for distributing it and whether to use directly in the motor or use fuel cells.

Thanks, but not related to my post at all.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, stevenl said:

They will decrease in value, but since this is a measure regarding new cars, cars sold before implementation will not be affected.

My second car is over 30 years old so petrol will be around for a long time to come for those buying new cars up to 2030.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Thanks, but not related to my post at all.

Didn't you say

But it puts pressure on all involved to come with solutions, which is good.

in the post to which I replied?

 

So, as it is a solution, entirely related IMO.

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

As  I understand it, methane is a worse greenhouse gas and if the permafrost melts we are all in trouble, but the most common greenhouse gas currently is water vapour.

 

Google tells us "They estimated that water vapor accounts for about 50% of Earth's greenhouse effect, with clouds contributing 25%, carbon dioxide 20%, and the minor greenhouse gases and aerosols accounting for the remaining 5%."

 

Why do we never hear about water vapour? Perhaps because water vapour can't be taxed.

Or maybe just possibly there's the fact that when water vapor reaches a certain level in the atmosphere something happens? When it starts precipitating dry ice or methane droplets you point will be a good one. Until then not so much.

[tomazbodner]

On 11/18/2020 at 9:08 PM, steve187 said:

never going to happen, the cost is unaffordable, the batteries are not up to the job, the where is all the electric going to come from, boris will be long gone and a distant memory in 2030

Gasoline cars weren't all that affordable 100 years ago either, and all politicians from that era are long gone, Mr. Horseman.

[Kwasaki]

On 11/21/2020 at 5:51 AM, quake said:

Ok i had a look.

But can't find any data on the difference between Co2 as a green house gas and methane as a green house gas in those figures you quote, am i right in saying methane is many times worse than Co2 in

the air ? i could be wrong.

 

OK then would a Thorium powered vehicle be better. 

They just need govt money. 

[bkkcanuck8]

On 11/18/2020 at 10:00 PM, fangless said:

 

Electric car batteries are NOT green!

 

https://news.un.org/en/story/2020/06/1067272#:~:text=It has also contributed to,contamination%2C groundwater depletion and pollution.

 

The shift to electric mobility is in line with ongoing efforts to reduce the world’s dependence on fossil fuels, and reduce harmful greenhouse gas emissions responsible for climate change, but a new report from UNCTAD, warns that the raw materials used in electric car batteries, are highly concentrated in a small number of countries, which raises a number of concerns.

Drilling down in DRC, Chile

For example, two-thirds of all cobalt production happens in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC). According the UN Children’s Fund (UNICEF), about 20 per cent of cobalt supplied from the DRC comes from artisanal mines, where human rights abuses have been reported, and up to 40,000 children work in extremely dangerous conditions in the mines for meagre income.

And in Chile, lithium mining uses nearly 65% of the water in the country's Salar de Atamaca region, one of the driest desert areas in the world, to pump out brines from drilled wells. This has forced local quinoa farmers and llama herders to migrate and abandon ancestral settlements. It has also contributed to environment degradation, landscape damage and soil contamination, groundwater depletion and pollution.

Electric vehicles are not by themselves green, but it allows for a more mixed energy generation.  A gas/petro car can only run on petrol, an electric car can run on anything that is generated (and funny enough it is actually much more convenient when the infrastructure is there - no running to the gas station).   The other thing that the move to electric cars do is make cities more livable as you don't have the ozone and other byproducts coming out of the tailpipe.  There have been serious advancements in technology with regards to electric vehicles as well.  Setting a deadline for moving to moving over fully to electric vehicles is a reasonable move.  Yes, the target might have to be adjusted depending on how fast things progress but it gives incentives to push the process along.   Requiring companies to meet human rights goals for the raw materials being produced inline with accepted practices should also be part of it. 

[3NUMBAS]

16 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

My second car is over 30 years old so petrol will be around for a long time to come for those buying new cars up to 2030.

at some time E will become cheaper than petrol so when that happens there will be a stampede to E and garages wont be able to sell enough petrol to survive .thus old cars will be dead in a ditch .

car dealers wont want to get stuck with scrap metal so wont have any stock as we aproach 2030

[nkg]

On 11/18/2020 at 4:40 PM, richard_smith237 said:

What is the energy source of all these electric vehicles ?

 

I know the article stated ‘new cars’ - but that means in 20 years time most of the cars will be electric. So what is providing the energy?

 

The UK is already in an extremely vulnerable position with regards to meeting its energy / electricity demand. 

 

A solar panel on every roof of every building, in any free space, an incredible development in battery technology which doesn’t rely on mining rare earth minerals from underdeveloped nations. 

 

Or, nuclear power !!... Better still, create a stable tiny fusion reactors which fit inside a car !!! just don’t crash and blow up the neighbourhood !

 

 

 

You make an interesting point about battery technology. Every electric car has a battery with huge capacity. Hook a million cars up to the grid and you effectively have one huge battery. Perfect for absorbing unpredictable renewable energy.

 

Obviously participation would be voluntary, and car owners who agreed would get a nice financial incentive from the power companies.

 

 

 

[quake]

19 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

OK then would a Thorium powered vehicle be better. 

They just need govt money. 

that would be cool, but think the money got pulled back in the 50s

but geothermal to make the electric would be good for the cars. strange they don't do this as the earths core maybe hot enough for this. !!!!!!!!!! 

[quake]

22 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

 

Why do we never hear about water vapour? Perhaps because water vapour can't be taxed.

If they get them fuel cells in all cars on mass, ii'm sure they bloody will 

[thaibeachlovers]

9 hours ago, 3NUMBAS said:

at some time E will become cheaper than petrol so when that happens there will be a stampede to E and garages wont be able to sell enough petrol to survive .thus old cars will be dead in a ditch .

car dealers wont want to get stuck with scrap metal so wont have any stock as we aproach 2030

What about in a country that mainly buys used cars, NOT new ones? New cars are far too expensive for many.

[GinBoy2]

So I'll fess upfront that I am completely bought into climate change and our need to change.

 

However I'm not convinced that electric vehicle technology is the way to go.

 

Maybe in a small country such as the UK where journey distances are relatively short, it might work. 

 

But anywhere that you need to travel long distances it's impossible, given the charging time of the batteries.

 

If I wanted to drive from my home to Denver, it's a six hour drive, with precious little infrastructure through the wilds of Wyoming.

 

Even 'if' there were charging stations en route, the time it takes to recharge is a far cry from the 5 mins it takes to pump a full tank of gas!

 

For me the only real technology is hydrogen fuel cell. Cheap, abundant, and fueling time comparable to todays gasoline.

 

On the specifics of the UK policy. What happens to all the existing cars? Will there be any resale value? Folks pay a lot of money to buy a car, but with the assumption that it will still have a resale value at the end of the day.

 

Bold plan which I applaud, but lots of questions and doubt about practicality

[placeholder]

27 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

So I'll fess upfront that I am completely bought into climate change and our need to change.

 

However I'm not convinced that electric vehicle technology is the way to go.

 

Maybe in a small country such as the UK where journey distances are relatively short, it might work. 

 

But anywhere that you need to travel long distances it's impossible, given the charging time of the batteries.

 

If I wanted to drive from my home to Denver, it's a six hour drive, with precious little infrastructure through the wilds of Wyoming.

 

Even 'if' there were charging stations en route, the time it takes to recharge is a far cry from the 5 mins it takes to pump a full tank of gas!

 

For me the only real technology is hydrogen fuel cell. Cheap, abundant, and fueling time comparable to todays gasoline.

 

On the specifics of the UK policy. What happens to all the existing cars? Will there be any resale value? Folks pay a lot of money to buy a car, but with the assumption that it will still have a resale value at the end of the day.

 

Bold plan which I applaud, but lots of questions and doubt about practicality

It's still early days for batteries. There's a huge amount invested in R&D. For example:

QuantumScape Has Yet To Reveal Key Details About Its Solid-State Batteries but That Has Not Stopped Investors From Doubling Down on Its Imminent Merger With Kensington Capital (KCAC) (wccftech.com)

 

[thaibeachlovers]

15 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

So I'll fess upfront that I am completely bought into climate change and our need to change.

 

However I'm not convinced that electric vehicle technology is the way to go.

 

Maybe in a small country such as the UK where journey distances are relatively short, it might work. 

 

But anywhere that you need to travel long distances it's impossible, given the charging time of the batteries.

 

If I wanted to drive from my home to Denver, it's a six hour drive, with precious little infrastructure through the wilds of Wyoming.

 

Even 'if' there were charging stations en route, the time it takes to recharge is a far cry from the 5 mins it takes to pump a full tank of gas!

 

For me the only real technology is hydrogen fuel cell. Cheap, abundant, and fueling time comparable to todays gasoline.

 

On the specifics of the UK policy. What happens to all the existing cars? Will there be any resale value? Folks pay a lot of money to buy a car, but with the assumption that it will still have a resale value at the end of the day.

 

Bold plan which I applaud, but lots of questions and doubt about practicality

Agree with hydrogen. Battery cars are IMO a mistake, the wrong road taken, technology that will be obsolete once hydrogen wins, a waste of money, too polluting to make/ dispose of, made with dubious labour practices in third world countries, use too much scarce resources.

 

Battery technology may come up with a battery that runs for 12 hours/ 1,000 miles and doesn't rely on, IMO exploited labour in third word countries, but till then battery only cars will not, IMO, be popular outside cities.