Brexit talks still stuck because EU is asking too much, UK says

[sandyf]

53 minutes ago, transam said:

"Desperation", I thought that was the route you were taking here, regarding you losing a democratic vote.. ????

The whole UK population lost that so called "democratic vote".

Just take a bit longer for some than others to face the reality.

[sandyf]

12 minutes ago, transam said:

I find it amusing that you quote leavers  "made a mistake and reluctant to admit it", now how about you, who lost the remain vote, is "Reluctant to admit it".....????

You are perfectly free to believe that I have been excluding myself when I have referred to the whole country having lost the vote.

[transam]

9 minutes ago, sandyf said:

The whole UK population lost that so called "democratic vote".

Just take a bit longer for some than others to face the reality.

Well you would say that, but the fact is more folk took the trouble to vote leave than remain, that is fact, now if you cannot understand that fact then you need to sit back and take stock.

But, you won't because you really have, to use a Thai phrase, lost face..... ????

[transam]

3 minutes ago, sandyf said:

You are perfectly free to believe that I have been excluding myself when I have referred to the whole country having lost the vote.

The UK remainers lost the vote, nobody else....????

[bannork]

The UK government keeps acting dumb. The EU have told them in no uncertain terms and frequently that the integrity of the single market is paramount and thus a level playing field is essential for any agreement. It's even in the Withdrawal Agreement. 

The EU will prefer a no deal to any compromise on that. 

[transam]

1 hour ago, bannork said:

The UK government keeps acting dumb. The EU have told them in no uncertain terms and frequently that the integrity of the single market is paramount and thus a level playing field is essential for any agreement. It's even in the Withdrawal Agreement. 

The EU will prefer a no deal to any compromise on that. 

Perhaps a "dumb" assumption....... 

[gamini]

Brexit supporters are beginning to sound like Trump ones

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, gamini said:

Brexit supporters are beginning to sound like Trump ones

Are we not free to choose to be so?

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Are we not free to choose to be so?

Quite a low bar you're setting to justify your choices.

[nauseus]

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Quite a low bar you're setting to justify your choices.

 

I didn't say I had chosen. Did I?

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

 

I didn't say I had chosen. Did I?

But you did cite freedom to choose to do so as a justification. Whether or not you actually choose to sound like Trump is immaterial.

[nauseus]

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

But you did cite freedom to choose to do so as a justification. Whether or not you actually choose to sound like Trump is immaterial.

 

As a justification for what? I didn't "cite" anything? Did I?

[7by7]

15 hours ago, vinny41 said:

No sign of desperation from my part  merely an observation

 So what was your point?

[7by7]

15 hours ago, vinny41 said:

As we both know polls can be skewed depending on how the question is  phrased and its pointless asking the question about remaining in the eu as that is no longer an option since the UK left 31st January 2020

so for the dates between  Field work dates: 4 February 2020 - 9 November 2020

The question was asked 

Should the United Kingdom join the European Union or stay out of the European Union?

As we can see from the results here for join ranges from 31% to 37% and the ranges for stay out are from 33% to 39% with the don't knows ranges from 28% to 31%

so a small margin in favour of staying out  over the past 4 months vs rejoining 

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/should-the-united-kingdom-join-the-european-union-or-stay-out-of-the-european-union/?pollster[]=tns

 

A variation, as you say, some polls saying 'Yes,' others saying 'No.' Also a very large percentage of 'Don't knows.' 

 

But a poll on re-joining the EU is not asking the same question as a poll asking if it was a mistake to leave.

 

I firmly believe that it was a mistake to leave. But if asked if we should apply to re-join I would have to reluctantly say 'No.' Because even if we were able to apply to re-join we would not be able to do so on the advantageous terms we enjoyed previously. We'd have no rebate, we'd have to commit to joining Schengen and the Euro for starters.

 

We've burnt our bridges. The best we can hope for now is to move forward as a partner with a mutually beneficial trade agreement. 

[7by7]

9 hours ago, transam said:

Still trying to change the vote eh, how tiresome....

 Too late for that; but I have the right to express my opinion.

 

9 hours ago, transam said:

You prefer polls, that mean nothing,  and not the actual democratic vote that leave won.

A reminder that were it not for opinion polls showing a growing support for UKIP then Cameron would not have panicked and made the grave error of promising a referendum in his 2015 manifesto and we would not now be in this mess!

 

9 hours ago, transam said:

Do you know what hypocrite means....?

 One example is someone who bangs on and on about democracy, yet wants to deny the democratic right to comment and criticise to those who disagree with them.

[vinny41]

Here the timeline for Campaigns for a European Union referendum

Since 2004 Labour, Lib dems and the  Conservatives have being promising a referendum on EU membership

22 January 2013: In a long awaited speech Prime Minister David Cameron says that if the Conservatives win the next election they would seek to renegotiate the UK's relationship with the EU and then give the British people the "simple choice" in 2017 between staying in the EU under those terms or leaving the EU.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-15390884

[nauseus]

43 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 Too late for that; but I have the right to express my opinion.

 

A reminder that were it not for opinion polls showing a growing support for UKIP then Cameron would not have panicked and made the grave error of promising a referendum in his 2015 manifesto and we would not now be in this mess!

 

 One example is someone who bangs on and on about democracy, yet wants to deny the democratic right to comment and criticise to those who disagree with them.

 

The possibility of a referendum had been inferred by various politicians in previous years but it never happened. By the result, this "grave error", was no such thing.

[pacovl46]

9 hours ago, transam said:

I find it amusing that you quote leavers  "made a mistake and reluctant to admit it", now how about you, who lost the remain vote, is "Reluctant to admit it".....????

What??? The remainers are not reluctant to admit that they lost the vote!!! It’s pretty obvious to everyone that they lost the vote! That doesn’t mean that it wasn’t a mistake, though! 

[RayC]

4 minutes ago, Victornoir said:

 

The question of reintegration into the EU is inappropriate mainly because the majority of the English do not want it.

I'd agree that reintegration is currently inappropriate, but not for the reason you suggest. The UK voted to leave the EU in order "to take back control". This woolly, vague phrase means different things to different people but, however it is defined, a strategy to implement it - and therefore it's effects - have not yet been seen. Personally, I think that it will take, at least, 10 years for any differences - which imo will be mainly negative - to be felt. Then it might be appropriate to talk about possible reintegration.

 

4 minutes ago, Victornoir said:

 

And we Europeans do not want a member solely interested in economic advantages and slowing down any development of our group.

 Again, I disagree. Firstly, I'd suggest that the only thing keeping Hungary, Poland and, perhaps, Czechia and Slovakia in the EU are the economic advantages. Secondly, rather than slowing down the development of the group, the UK has often been at the forefront of developments e.g. issues as diverse as the single market, security issues, animal welfare

 

4 minutes ago, Victornoir said:

The possible reintegration can only be done by the nations of the former UK which have become formally independent and wish to move forward with the others. We think Scotland, of course, but also a reunified Ireland.

This is not a logical conclusion. The UK voted to leave the EU as one entity, so why could it not vote to rejoin as one entity? If a vote were held tomorrow then, perhaps, there may still be a majority in England in favour of 'Leave'? In 10+ years time, who knows?

[vinny41]

15 minutes ago, pacovl46 said:

What??? The remainers are not reluctant to admit that they lost the vote!!! It’s pretty obvious to everyone that they lost the vote! That doesn’t mean that it wasn’t a mistake, though! 

Quite often the losing side think the result was a mistake on a number of issues ranging from a referee awarding a disputed penalty that resulted in the losing side losing the match.

In 1980 Labour were planning to take for the UK to quit the EU without a referendum just give the EU notice

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/06/from-the-archive-labour-group-seeks-pledge-to-quit-eec-june-1980

 

1983: In their election manifesto, Labour, under leader Michael Foot, pledge to begin negotiations to withdraw from the EU "within the lifetime" of the following Parliament. Labour lose the election

[candide]

23 minutes ago, RayC said:

Again, I disagree. Firstly, I'd suggest that the only thing keeping Hungary, Poland and, perhaps, Czechia and Slovakia in the EU are the economic advantages. Secondly, rather than slowing down the development of the group, the UK has often been at the forefront of developments e.g. issues as diverse as the single market, security issues, animal welfare

Firstly, don't forget Russia!

Secondly, don't forget freedom of movement for Eastern Europe workers as a major contribution. ????

[7by7]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

 

The possibility of a referendum had been inferred by various politicians in previous years but it never happened. By the result, this "grave error", was no such thing.

 

That others had called for, inferred or even promised a referendum on our membership of the EU previously does not alter the fact that the result of the 2016 referendum was a grave error. 

[7by7]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

Quite often the losing side think the result was a mistake on a number of issues ranging from a referee awarding a disputed penalty that resulted in the losing side losing the match.

In 1980 Labour were planning to take for the UK to quit the EU without a referendum just give the EU notice

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/06/from-the-archive-labour-group-seeks-pledge-to-quit-eec-june-1980

 

As your link shows, it was not very long after it that Leavers expressed their belief that the result of the 1975 referendum was a mistake!

 

As the UK is a democracy they had the right to hold and express that view; just as I and others have the same right to hold and express the view that the result of the 2016 referendum was a mistake.

 

I trust that you don't hold the same view as others here; that only people who agree with you should be allowed freedom of speech!

 

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

1983: In their election manifesto, Labour, under leader Michael Foot, pledge to begin negotiations to withdraw from the EU "within the lifetime" of the following Parliament. Labour lose the election

 

Indeed; that was just one of their policies rejected by the British people then. With just 27.6% of the vote Labour suffered an even worse defeat than that of 2019!

[RayC]

3 hours ago, Victornoir said:

 

Before the EU there were regular wars between nations, mainly between Germany and France. 1870, 1914, 1939.

This great project was to replace the confrontation of armies by peaceful cooperation to exchange with the other blocks which constitute the essence of the globalized economy.

Total success. We are the first generation spared from war since the Roman Empire.

I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiment, but you cannot claim that this is entirely due to the EU. American-led NATO was arguably more important in keeping the peace in Europe post-1945.

3 hours ago, Victornoir said:

The ultimate objective is the pooling of sovereign areas such as defense, foreign policy, public health standards, trade, immigration and justice.

No doubt that is the goal of many, but it is by means universal within the EU. Many of the central European and Scandinavian states would shy away from any loss of sovereignty in such areas.

 

As you are no doubt aware, the 'Treaty of Rome' and subsequent EU treaties speak of 'ever closer union'. However, rather like 'taking back control', it's a phrase that is open to wide interpretation.

3 hours ago, Victornoir said:

In this movement, England has always slowed down, wishing to limit construction to a large market relying on the US umbrella for its security.

(You cannot speak of England in this context. It is the UK that was a member state of the EU not England)

 

Let's not pretend that the UK was the catalyst of and/or the roadblock to (the solving of) the major problems faced by the EU, arguably the greatest of which is the future of the common currency. The UK can bear little of the blame for the fundamental flaws associated with EU monetary union. Imo the attached article offers an excellent overview of the Euro's problems.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/aug/10/joseph-stiglitz-the-problem-with-europe-is-the-euro

 

3 hours ago, Victornoir said:

This is why Europeans like me are happy with Brexit and above all do not want to return to the previous situation where most of the British participation was limited to endless discussions on the level of its discount.

But there are many EU states who valued the 'bolshie' contribution that the UK made within the bloc. For example, the Netherlands and the Scandinavian states were largely in accord with the UK regarding federalism; the ex-Warsaw pact states looked to the UK when it came to security.

 

You are glad to see the UK leave the EU. As a Europhile, pro-EU Brit I find that disappointing (although I do understand why you feel like that after the past 4 years). However, imo it's naive to think that it will be 'full steam ahead' for the EU. The EU's problems have not suddenly become any easier to solve now that the UK has left.

 

[RayC]

5 hours ago, candide said:

Firstly, don't forget Russia!

Imo NATO (pre-Trump at least) is more important than the EU in this context.

5 hours ago, candide said:

Secondly, don't forget freedom of movement for Eastern Europe workers as a major contribution. ????

I put that under the 'economic advantage' umbrella.

[Hi from France]

7 hours ago, Victornoir said:

 

The question of reintegration into the EU is inappropriate mainly because the majority of the English do not want it.

I know a majority of the British voters regret Brexit, and that another 2016 referendum would not go the same way, but I do not know the current state of the opinion about a "rejoining", which is obviously very far away. 

 

Anyone has data? 

 

 

7 hours ago, Victornoir said:

And we Europeans do not want a member solely interested in economic advantages and slowing down any development of our group.

Cough cough

 

7 hours ago, Victornoir said:

The possible reintegration can only be done by the nations of the former UK which have become formally independent and wish to move forward with the others. We think Scotland, of course, but also a reunified Ireland.

a reunified Ireland is likely, but 20 years away. 

 

An independent Scotland is still a complicated and remote possibility. 

[Hi from France]

29 minutes ago, RayC said:

You are glad to see the UK leave the EU. As a Europhile, pro-EU Brit I find that disappointing (although I do understand why you feel like that after the past 4 years). However, imo it's naive to think that it will be 'full steam ahead' for the EU. The EU's problems have not suddenly become any easier to solve now that the UK has left.

I do think they have become a great deal easier, the UK was unable to veto this :

Quote

the largest stimulus package ever financed through the EU budget. A total of €1.8 trillion will help rebuild a post-COVID-19 Europe. It will be a greener, more digital and more resilient Europe.

https://ec.europa.eu/info/strategy/recovery-plan-europe_en

 

Now the EU does still have multiple problems, no doubt 

[GrandPapillon]

The UK is clearly demonstrating their bad faith in this negotiation process

 

Barnier should clearly stop negotiating with the British thugs :)

[vinny41]

On 12/2/2020 at 7:25 PM, puipuitom said:

Therefore... do not make any agreement with Boris the Liar. Only a new referendum, with at least 75% of all British voters in favour for a new membership of the EU, no special rights anymore, accept the €uro, Schengen, and right lane traffic. And no new Brexit anymore the coming 100 years.

 

49 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

I know a majority of the British voters regret Brexit, and that another 2016 referendum would not go the same way, but I do not know the current state of the opinion about a "rejoining", which is obviously very far away. 

 

Anyone has data? 

 

 

Cough cough

 

a reunified Ireland is likely, but 20 years away. 

 

An independent Scotland is still a complicated and remote possibility. 

If the requirements of joining the EU are the standard eu accession process plus  Only a new referendum, with at least 75% of all voters in favour for a new membership of the EU, no special rights anymore, accept the €uro, Schengen, and right lane traffic

and a further requirement that for the 1st 20 years of membership the new member has to be a  net contributor to the eu budget I think you will find some countries would no longer be interested in joining the eu

I think you will find that once Poland becomes an eu net contributor instead of an eu net  beneficiaries there will be growing calls for Polexit

Polish Euro-enthusiasm is very shallow” as some 181 billion Euros have been transferred to Poland over last 16 years

This is where the Polish EU membership is after 16 years: Poland is half-in, half-out, and unsure if it wants to place the second feet inside

https://political-europe.com/2020/05/01/polexit-in-5-steps/

 

If anyone vists Turkey they will find very good roads, bridges brand new trains all funded by the eu taxpayer

EU financial assistance planned for Turkey from 2007 until 2020 through the Instrument for Pre-accession Assistance (IPA) amounts to over 9 billion euros

Does anyone in Europe know when they will received a return on their investment 

Looking at the news its unlikely that Turkey will be joining the EU anytime in the near future

Erdogan expresses hope that France will 'get rid of Macron' as soon as possible

https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20201204-erdogan-expresses-hope-that-france-will-get-rid-of-macron-as-soon-as-possible

[RayC]

1 hour ago, Hi from France said:

I do think they have become a great deal easier, the UK was unable to veto this :

https://ec.europa.eu/info/strategy/recovery-plan-europe_en

 

Well, your statement is a truism given that the UK is no longer a member of the EU.

 

However it's a rather large assumption that the UK would have vetoed the plan had it been in a position to do so.