Brexit decision time for Britain after hiccup in talks, EU says

[Bruntoid]

1 hour ago, Pilotman said:

It may have escaped most peoples notice, but most countries of the world,  191 at the last count, are not in the EU.  Only 27 are.  Its not the end of the world to be in a much bigger club, with many more opportunities that fact represents, than to be in a small, undemocratic, restrictive, anti trade club of 27,  with whom you have little in common, however closer to the UK they may be. By all means have a reciprocal agreement for use of each others club bar and  pool facilities, but don't join. 

Sorry which club is bigger again ? Because the U.K. has just walked away from THE biggest and are hardly making inroads into the ones behind it. 
 

Virtually all the 191 are in their own trading blocs of which the U.K. would clearly not be accepted primarily due to geography. 
 

This is basic economic stuff - but while you’re here what restrictive measures are in place within the EU that are worse than the WTO the Brexiteers hanker after ? 

[Bruntoid]

2 hours ago, Thingamabob said:

It's not about economics. Hasn't that sunk in yet ?

Haha there it is finally - a confession from a brexiteer that they haven’t a clue what they voted for !

 

So let’s turn a blind eye to the economics of the brexit vote for a moment - what is it then that will generate the jobs and ultimately the taxes that run the country following the largest act of self harm any country has ever made ? - if you can answer that question with no regard to ‘economics’ I’ll get a tattoo of Bojo ! 
 

But I understand the vote was primarily a racist act to rid the U.K. of non indigenous people (sadly most Brexiteers thought Indians and Pakistanis would be sent home????) - but there will be an enormous economic cost to that currently estimated to be 2% of GDP according to the governments own office. Have a guess how much that is and let us know how that’s going to be recouped - (don’t forget there should be no mention of economics) I’ve got my popcorn ready ...

 

Just priceless ! 

[Hi from France]

12 minutes ago, Bruntoid said:

but there will be an enormous economic cost to that currently estimated to be 2% of GDP according to the governments own office.

-2% is the past years, it's done already

 

Forecasts for the landing in a few years is either an additional -4% (deal) or -8% (no deal).

 

 

 

... but you know, once the UK has dropped a few more places in the ranking of nations, it will be more sovereign, you know.

 

enfin comme on dit "il vaut mieux un petit chez soi qu'un grand chez les autres :)"

[candide]

1 hour ago, Pilotman said:

It may have escaped most peoples notice, but most countries of the world,  191 at the last count, are not in the EU.  Only 27 are.  Its not the end of the world to be in a much bigger club, with many more opportunities that fact represents, than to be in a small, undemocratic, restrictive, anti trade club of 27,  with whom you have little in common, however closer to the UK they may be. By all means have a reciprocal agreement for use of each others club bar and  pool facilities, but don't join. 

It may have escaped your notice that the the "anti-trade EU" has in place the largest trade network in the world, with 45 applied trade agreements covering 77 partner countries, and several others are under negotiation. ????

[Sujo]

33 minutes ago, Bruntoid said:

Haha there it is finally - a confession from a brexiteer that they haven’t a clue what they voted for !

 

So let’s turn a blind eye to the economics of the brexit vote for a moment - what is it then that will generate the jobs and ultimately the taxes that run the country following the largest act of self harm any country has ever made ? - if you can answer that question with no regard to ‘economics’ I’ll get a tattoo of Bojo ! 
 

But I understand the vote was primarily a racist act to rid the U.K. of non indigenous people (sadly most Brexiteers thought Indians and Pakistanis would be sent home????) - but there will be an enormous economic cost to that currently estimated to be 2% of GDP according to the governments own office. Have a guess how much that is and let us know how that’s going to be recouped - (don’t forget there should be no mention of economics) I’ve got my popcorn ready ...

 

Just priceless ! 

He doesnt care, he just wants uk out, sod the consequences.

[7by7]

3 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Have you forgotten that Boris was forced by law to seek an extension

The Benn Act – or the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act 2019 – is an Act of Parliament that provided a statutory obligation for the government to prevent a no deal Brexit on 31 October 2019 by requiring in the Prime Minister to ask for an extension of Article 50. The only way this could be avoided was the House of Commons approving a motion on a withdrawal agreement agreed with the EU by 19 October 2019.

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/the-facts/what-was-the-benn-act/

Have you forgotten Johnson's illegal prorogation of Parliament in an effort to, among other matters such as discussion of his proposed agreement, prevent that Bill being passed?

 

The Act did not prevent Johnson from leaving without a deal. It prevented him from so doing without Parliament's approval. He never asked Parliament, though. Instead he asked the EU for an extension with his three letter trick.

 

Article 50 extension: was Johnson’s “three letters” trick unlawful?

Quote

Of the two pages of fluff that comprise that final letter, it is really one sentence that matters. “While it is open to the European Council to accede to the request mandated by parliament or to offer an alternative extension period, I have made clear since becoming prime minister, and made clear to parliament again today, my view, and the government’s position, that a further extension would damage the interests of the UK and our EU partners, and the relationship between us.” Was that unlawful?

 

[Pilotman]

1 hour ago, candide said:

It may have escaped your notice that the the "anti-trade EU" has in place the largest trade network in the world, with 45 applied trade agreements covering 77 partner countries, and several others are under negotiation. ????

So lets have one of those then. We don't need to be part of a club where we have very  little in common with at least 23 of them. 

Edited December 5, 2020 by Pilotman

[Hi from France]

Last hours.. 

 

From this article, fishing is not the dealbreaker but LPF.

 

The Brits want to access our market without the contraints European nations have, while the EU does not accept that and wants to be able to hit back as soon as the British start cheating... A thing which is, alas, very likely to happen. 

Quote

Despite the headlines, fishing is not the dealbreaker. Downing Street briefed that last-minute EU demands for a 10-year transition period for changes to fishing access for European fleet in British waters had rocked the negotiation. But the two sides have been discussing the terms of a transition period for months, and a compromise will be found.

The more significant issues lie in Barnier’s demands for provisions to ensure that Brussels can unilaterally hit back at British economic interests if the UK diverges from EU environmental, labour and social standards. It is a matter of principle to the government that policymakers in Westminster need not be boxed into following EU standards. 

 

Edited December 5, 2020 by Hi from France

[CG1 Blue]

7 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 I think even Johnson knows that.

 

But the rabid anti EU ERG don't care about what's best for the UK; and they are on his back. He needs them to maintain his majority and hang onto his job.

Errr..no he doesn't need the ERG to maintain his majority. Did you miss the 2019 general election? 

[Hi from France]

11 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Errr..no he doesn't need the ERG to maintain his majority. Did you miss the 2019 general election? 

Good point 

 

We know even if BJ and UVDL determine a deal, in the next few hours, it won't be easy to pass the European parliament and the veto of each of the 27.

 

But is Boris Johnson able to have whatever deal ratified in the UK parliament? He has a big 80 majority which will hold? Remember Theresa May and her deadlocked parliament with no majority without the DUP

Could it happen all over again if the deal is too "hard to swallow" for the Brexiteers? How big is the ERG now? 

 

. 

Edited December 5, 2020 by Hi from France

[CG1 Blue]

5 hours ago, Bruntoid said:

Haha there it is finally - a confession from a brexiteer that they haven’t a clue what they voted for !

 

So let’s turn a blind eye to the economics of the brexit vote for a moment - what is it then that will generate the jobs and ultimately the taxes that run the country following the largest act of self harm any country has ever made ? - if you can answer that question with no regard to ‘economics’ I’ll get a tattoo of Bojo ! 
 

But I understand the vote was primarily a racist act to rid the U.K. of non indigenous people (sadly most Brexiteers thought Indians and Pakistanis would be sent home????) - but there will be an enormous economic cost to that currently estimated to be 2% of GDP according to the governments own office. Have a guess how much that is and let us know how that’s going to be recouped - (don’t forget there should be no mention of economics) I’ve got my popcorn ready ...

 

Just priceless ! 

You're replying to somebody who said we didn't vote to leave for economic reasons - and you reply with economic arguments ????‍♂️

And then you suggest most of the 17.4 million who voted for Brexit did so to get Indians and Pakistanis sent home. That's one of the most idiotic comments I've seen on a Brexit thread. 

 

Maybe you should stick to commenting on less complex issues. No offence...????

 

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, Hi from France said:

Last hours.. 

 

From this article, fishing is not the dealbreaker but LPF.

 

The Brits want to access our market without the contraints European nations have, while the EU does not accept that and wants to be able to hit back as soon as the British start cheating... A thing which is, alas, very likely to happen. 

 

This article says different

EU Brexit negotiator, Michel Barnier, this week “wasn’t worried about anything else but fish”

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-france-exclusive/exclusive-macron-lays-ground-for-netting-brexit-compromise-on-fisheries-idUSKBN2781P3

10 years unfetted access to British waters is never going to fly

if fishing isn't the deal breaker agree fishing terms and that just leaves LPF

[GrandPapillon]

I really don't see the point of negotiating further with the Brits, they are obviously not into it, and playing silly games

 

it's IMF time for them, and back to 1974 before they went bankrupt as a country

[luckyluke]

23 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

suggest most of the 17.4 million who voted for Brexit did so to get Indians and Pakistanis sent home. That's one of the most idiotic comments I've seen on a Brexit thread. 

 

Being a man of the street myself, and my friends and acquaintances the same, I can guarantee that we don't have any knowledge about deep economic stuff. 

 

The man in the street vote with his hearth, and go with his guts, when voting he expect concrete solutions which affect him directly. 

 

So I honestly can not tell what are the main reasons the majority in the U.K. voted Leave. 

 

I am pretty sure however that a lot thought there will be changes with the presence of "refugees" "foreigners" (or whatever name) in the U.K., and that the money sent to the E.U. wil now be used to ameliorate the living conditions of the Britons. 

 

This may of course happen.

 

However 4 years after the vote, there are no concrete plans from the U.K. government about these issues. 

 

This may upset some of the Leave voters. 

 

It would upset me, if I, man of the street, voted Leave. 

[RayC]

9 hours ago, transam said:

For me Brexit has nothing to do with economics, it is to get away from the obvious U.S. of G, which will evolve.

Who's pulling the EU strings now, yep, you guessed it. 

I don't understand how many 'Leavers' can be so blasé about the likely negative economic effects of Brexit.

 

Notwithstanding that, decisions in the EU are usually arrived at by consensus. Of the decisions that go to a vote, Germany is joint second on the 'defeated' list behind the UK during this century, so the idea that Germany is somehow able to exert complete control over the other EU states is clearly incorrect.

 

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/the-facts/how-often-is-the-uk-outvoted-in-brussels/

 

As the article shows, the UK was on the losing side 12% of the time recently. Is it worth the uncertainty and risk of leaving the EU in order to reclaim an additional 12% of 'sovereignity'? No doubt some will answer 'Yes'. Personally, I think not.

[transam]

13 hours ago, puipuitom said:

We just wait a two-three months, when disaster really hits the Tiny Islands.

Ah, another anti-British quote, you really are bolstering my case against you lot, keep it up.....

[Bruntoid]

7 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

You're replying to somebody who said we didn't vote to leave for economic reasons - and you reply with economic arguments ????‍♂️

And then you suggest most of the 17.4 million who voted for Brexit did so to get Indians and Pakistanis sent home. That's one of the most idiotic comments I've seen on a Brexit thread. 

 

Maybe you should stick to commenting on less complex issues. No offence...????

 

The ‘economic’ based reply was merely to point out the absurdity of a vote for Brexit without considering the economic impact. 

 

Either my words were too big or perhaps read it a little more slowly ? 
 

As for complexity it’s a daily challenge dumbing down comments for Brexiteers to absorb 

[transam]

13 hours ago, Bruntoid said:

Yet again - unintelligible. 

Sorry about that, but here, we must post in English ....????

[Bruntoid]

2 minutes ago, transam said:

Ah, another anti-British quote, you really are bolstering my case against you lot, keep it up.....

anti British how ? (and it wasn’t a quote) 

[transam]

3 minutes ago, Bruntoid said:

anti British how ? (and it wasn’t a quote) 

Was I talking to you.....? 

Are you also going down the grammar police route, well I suppose there's not much else you can do, is there.... ????

[petermik]

7 hours ago, Bruntoid said:

 

 

Either my words were too big or perhaps read it a little more slowly ? 
 

As for complexity it’s a daily challenge dumbing down comments for Brexiteers to absorb 

So why bother then...we wanted out we voted out...and our "tiny islands" will prosper outside a "community" that wants to dictate to us what is best for our country...we know what is best and we stand and fall by our decision.

We are the first and won,t be the last 

[colinneil]

14 hours ago, puipuitom said:

We just wait a two-three months, when disaster really hits the Tiny Islands.

You are so wrong, the Tiny Islands ( your words) are getting away from the disaster, you know it is the EU disaster.

[7by7]

19 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

Errr..no he doesn't need the ERG to maintain his majority. Did you miss the 2019 general election? 

Whilst some prominent members are publicly identified, Rees-Mogg and Gove for example, most are not. As an unincorporated association the group does not publish membership details. 

 

Why the secrecy, I wonder?

 

But are you seriously suggesting that their numbers and power are so limited that Boris can afford to ignore them? They did, after all, put him into the position of Prime Minister!

[Rookiescot]

11 hours ago, transam said:

Ah, another anti-British quote, you really are bolstering my case against you lot, keep it up.....

 

We always know when you have lost an argument.

You pull out the "anti Brit" card like its some kind of joker but in reality its more of a dead rubber. 

[billd766]

19 hours ago, Hi from France said:

Good point 

 

We know even if BJ and UVDL determine a deal, in the next few hours, it won't be easy to pass the European parliament and the veto of each of the 27.

 

But is Boris Johnson able to have whatever deal ratified in the UK parliament? He has a big 80 majority which will hold? Remember Theresa May and her deadlocked parliament with no majority without the DUP

Could it happen all over again if the deal is too "hard to swallow" for the Brexiteers? How big is the ERG now? 

 

. 

More whataboutery.

 

Could, perhaps, maybe.

 

Nobody has any real idea what will happen.

 

IMHO the country in the EU most likely to cast a veto will be your own country, France. The next country is likely to be Spain, both of whom rely on fishing quite a lot.

[baansgr]

On 12/5/2020 at 6:06 PM, Sujo said:

Why would the eu care. Uk is out, how badly they are out is up to the uk. They cant be half in or out.

 

The eu have nothing to lose. The uk does.

The EU has a lot more to lose than the UK...do we have to keep reiterating this...figures don't lie. Where will the EU sell all the goods the UK currently buys?....The UK has the whole world to replace the piddly amount they buy from us.

[welovesundaysatspace]

18 minutes ago, baansgr said:

Where will the EU sell all the goods the UK currently buys?....The UK has the whole world to replace the piddly amount they buy from us.

How about planning with the worst case: Neither the EU not the UK will be able to replace anything, thus losing that trade. How does that sound? 

[CG1 Blue]

17 hours ago, Bruntoid said:

The ‘economic’ based reply was merely to point out the absurdity of a vote for Brexit without considering the economic impact. 

 

Either my words were too big or perhaps read it a little more slowly ? 
 

As for complexity it’s a daily challenge dumbing down comments for Brexiteers to absorb 

You didn't point out the absurdity of a vote for Brexit without considering the economic impact. You completely contradicted yourself.

 

You wrote: 

"So let’s turn a blind eye to the economics of the brexit vote for a moment"

Then followed with: 

"what is it then that will generate the jobs and ultimately the taxes that run the country following the largest act of self harm any country has ever made ? "

 

You didn't really turn a blind eye to the economics then did you! 

 

And then you have the front to suggest it's Brexiters that need comments dumbed down ????‍♂️

 

 

[transam]

11 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

 

We always know when you have lost an argument.

You pull out the "anti Brit" card like its some kind of joker but in reality its more of a dead rubber. 

Sometimes the truth hurts when told...Mon ami...

[Rookiescot]

6 hours ago, transam said:

Sometimes the truth hurts when told...Mon ami...

You are confusing the truth with your opinion.

They are absolutely not the same thing.