Wiring for electric oven and hot water unit townhouse.

[DrJack54]

Hey Guys, I did search TV for past topics and found some useful information.

Just hoping can obtain confirmation here.

First of all I will be using a qualified electrician however I like to be aware of what some experts on this forum think. 

So I'm thinking of including a built in electric oven. As I understand it that will need a dedicated line. One pic below shows power board which fortunately is just other side of kitchen. 

The second "problem" is that the bathroom on level 2 that services master bed has electric heater for shower, however the bathroom on next level has no electric water heater. That bathroom services 2 bedrooms so thinking needs heater. Is being so far from power board a huge issue?

Finally, just curious. There are a few 2 pin outlets in kitchen and one has 3 pin, pic attached. Why is that. 

Appreciate any advice. 

[lopburi3]

Photo close of breaker panel with cover off if you feel comfortable doing that to see if any ground attached.  You can turn that main breaker on right off to make safer until put cover back on.

 

Size of breakers on panel?  Size of main Breaker?  Size of Safe-t-cut?  Wattage of water heater now installed?  Wattage of proposed electric oven?

[bankruatsteve]

52 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

So I'm thinking of including a built in electric oven. As I understand it that will need a dedicated line. One pic below shows power board which fortunately is just other side of kitchen. 

If the oven is the normal consumer type found here, it will pull about 10 amps.  If you only have one circuit going to your kitchen, then a separate circuit to the oven is needed.  That will need 2.5mm² on a 20 amp breaker.  And it will require  ground.

 

58 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Is being so far from power board a huge issue?

Not at all.  You will want to go with 4-6mm² depending on size of heater unit.

 

1 hour ago, DrJack54 said:

Finally, just curious. There are a few 2 pin outlets in kitchen and one has 3 pin, pic attached. Why is that. 

It is not for any good reason for sure.  As lopburi suggested, take a photo with CU cover off to maybe confirm the ground situation.

[carlyai]

I can see a problem (for me anyway) with the Safety Cut. If that multi-positioned switch on the front has a 0 or 'bypass' or similar, then the tendency would be to bypass the unit when the breaker trips, therefore no protection from the device. If it can be switched to 'bypass' then maybe replace the Safety Cut with one without a rotary switch. No switch.

ALSO

With the oven. We have 2 and never been used. Think Khun Thai doesn't like the cooking smell in the house. These days Air Fryers seem the way.

Do you really need an oven?

[bankruatsteve]

41 minutes ago, carlyai said:

With the oven. We have 2 and never been used. Think Khun Thai doesn't like the cooking smell in the house. These days Air Fryers seem the way.

Do you really need an oven?

I agree that Thai women who like to use an oven are few and far between.  Not sure if it's the smell or just not their style.  The oven is for me.  I can't imagine baking (like pies) in anything else.  I use my grill as an oven for other stuff (like pizza).

[DrJack54]

3 hours ago, lopburi3 said:

Photo close of breaker panel with cover off if you feel comfortable doing that to see if any ground attached.  You can turn that main breaker on right off to make safer until put cover back on.

 

Size of breakers on panel?  Size of main Breaker?  Size of Safe-t-cut?  Wattage of water heater now installed?  Wattage of proposed electric oven?

 I will only have keys to townhouse in 2 weeks time when settlement occurs but will take your advice. Thankyou.

[DrJack54]

14 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

I agree that Thai women who like to use an oven are few and far between.  Not sure if it's the smell or just not their style.  The oven is for me.  I can't imagine baking (like pies) in anything else.  I use my grill as an oven for other stuff (like pizza).

First up thanks for your advice in your earlier post. Carlyai asked if I really need an oven and the answer is no. However since putting in new kitchen thought it was good to have a pizza box (oven) rather than not that have option in future. Think it's overkill but still heading in that direction.

BTW my Thai partner is born bkk can't boil water.

[473geo]

Anybody with an air fryers know can they make good pork crackling without drying the meat? One failing of BBQ pork too I find, tasty though it is

[lopburi3]

11 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

 I will only have keys to townhouse in 2 weeks time when settlement occurs but will take your advice. Thankyou.

One very important item is that water heater - make very sure it has a good ground (even if not provided by electric system).

[bankruatsteve]

44 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

First up thanks for your advice in your earlier post. Carlyai asked if I really need an oven and the answer is no. However since putting in new kitchen thought it was good to have a pizza box (oven) rather than not that have option in future. Think it's overkill but still heading in that direction.

BTW my Thai partner is born bkk can't boil water.

If all you can think of for an oven is for pizza, you really should reconsider.  You can get a pizza cooker for a lot less than the price of installing an oven.  Even if the oven is put below countertop (and I don't understand how that got to be the norm) it takes up a lot of space.  You're probably better off running that 2nd circuit anyway and adding 2-3 3-pin receptacles.

[DrJack54]

Again thanks for advice. Decided to just do a built in microwave. Will still run a separate line out to kitchen as good time to do it with small kitchen makeover. 

Today was on ferry to Koh Samed. Took this pic. Thought few of the experts might have a smile. Well after all it is called insulation tape. Sounds fine to me! 

[KhaoYai]

Most modern domestic ovens run on a 13a supply in the UK - denoted by the fitment of a normal plug.  I can't remember what the wattage of the oven I bought for my Thai home was but that also came with a normal plug fitted.  These modern ovens are supposed to be able to be run off 'normal' wiring but I have my doubts about such claims because surely it depends on what other items are being used on the same circuit? It must also be remembered that wiring in Thailand may be anything but normal - ask your electrician to check what's in place and that the earth actually goes to earth. To be on the safe side, I used an old electric shower circuit (appropriate wiring and breaker) to supply a dedicated socket for the oven.

 

If you're going to install an oven and a water heater, you'd be well advised to upgrade your incoming supply - its probably 15a - I went to 30a and would have liked more but I was told that's not possible without going to 3 phase.

 

If you do all you plan and also upgrade your supply, I'd recommend you spend a little more, get rid of all that stuff on your board and replace it with a more modern consumer unit.

 

 

[DrJack54]

2 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

If you do all you plan and also upgrade your supply, I'd recommend you spend a little more, get rid of all that stuff on your board and replace it with a more modern consumer unit.

Your a mind reader. Was thinking exactly that.

Not doing oven now, just a built in microwave. However still plan to run new line to kitchen. The nice bit is power board just next to kitchen.

My thinking was to have electrician replace board. 100% on your page. 

Thanks.

[lopburi3]

12 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

If you're going to install an oven and a water heater, you'd be well advised to upgrade your incoming supply - its probably 15a - I went to 30a and would have liked more

Although key is how many items are being used at the same time the 15a service is fine for most large homes (mine is 6 BR with 6 water heaters/air conditioners) - it provides 45 amps and over 60 amps power before trip of breaker and is the normal home service for larger homes in city.   Unless growing a leafy crop there is no way he will need more in a condo.  

But do not believe we know his service yet or breaker size.  The old standard for smaller places was 5a service and that is often inadequate in today's world.

[DrJack54]

13 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

But do not believe we know his service yet or breaker size.  The old standard for smaller places was 5a service and that is often inadequate in today's world.

Yes, hard to advise when I have not provided required information. When I have access to house in couple of weeks I will update. 

Thanks.

[sometimewoodworker]

15 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

Your a mind reader. Was thinking exactly that.

Not doing oven now, just a built in microwave. However still plan to run new line to kitchen. The nice bit is power board just next to kitchen.

My thinking was to have electrician replace board. 100% on your page. 

Thanks.

FWIW I’ve just had a quotation for a board replacement and converting a single radial circuit and changing a few sockets, no VAT as the Electriction is under the threshold for about ฿35,000 or £880 so be thankful that you’re in Thailand.

[KhaoYai]

9 hours ago, lopburi3 said:

Although key is how many items are being used at the same time the 15a service is fine for most large homes (mine is 6 BR with 6 water heaters/air conditioners) - it provides 45 amps and over 60 amps power before trip of breaker and is the normal home service for larger homes in city.

15a servicing 6 bedrooms with water heaters and aircon? Let's say your water heaters are 3000w - quite normal for an electric shower, @ 220v just one of your showers will use 13.63a!  I hope that no more than one of your family/guests use the shower at the same time.  Using one shower on full and turning your kettle on would draw more than your supply. It would not necessarily trip your breaker but you would not be getting full power to either.

 

It also depends on what your actual supply is - even though I upgraded mine to 30a, at times my microwave slows down when I turn the kettle on and there's nothing wrong with my internal wiring.  I haven't checked but I very much doubt I'm getting 30a. 

 

15a may be OK for Thai people, they have different habits/requirements to westerners. In the UK a supply for a 'normal' home is 60a - larger homes are fitted with a 100a supply fuse.  There's normally no need to upgrade the supply wiring as the original wiring will cope with both - at my Thai home I had to fit a larger cable from the pole to my consumer unit.

Edited December 25, 2020 by KhaoYai

[Crossy]

6 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

15a may be OK for Thai people,

 

A "15A" meter is a "15/45" usually on a 50 or 63A incomer, fine for most of us.

 

The "minimal" supply is a 5/15 which is 15A max (give it a 20A incomer), enough for most local shacks (and the only meter that gives you free power below a certain usage).

 

[KhaoYai]

2 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

A "15A" meter is a "15/45" usually on a 50 or 63A incomer, fine for most of us.

 

The "minimal" supply is a 5/15 which is 15A max (give it a 20A incomer), enough for most local shacks (and the only meter that gives you free power below a certain usage).

 

I bow to your greater knowledge - however, would you say 15a supply is sufficient for a 6 bed condo with water heaters and aircon?

 

Purely from experience, I think that in Thailand, what's actually supplied can vary a lot depending on where you are and if the local cable can cope with the demand.  Even in my home village in the UK, we had to fight with the power company to get out overhead cable upgraded as the local quarry was causing low voltage when it operated at full capacity.

[KhaoYai]

11 minutes ago, Crossy said:

A "15A" meter is a "15/45" usually on a 50 or 63A incomer, fine for most of us.

So what is the max amperage available for that supply? And on my 30a?  When I'm able to return I want to take my low power problem up with the PEA.

[Crossy]

14 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

I bow to your greater knowledge - however, would you say 15a supply is sufficient for a 6 bed condo with water heaters and aircon?

 

A lot depends upon diversity (what's on at one time), but I would concur that a single-phase 15/45 would be "marginal" on that place. That said, if it has a "legal" (probably 63A) incoming breaker which doesn't open on overload than all is good.

 

Six bedrooms each with a 10,000 BTU A/C is about 6kW peak, once down to temperature maybe only two running at once leaving 8kW for water heaters etc.

 

Your "30A" supply, probably 30/100, is 100A max (22kW) should be enough for most of us.

 

In the UK the supply authorities budget for 2kW (yes, TWO kW) per property when sizing their systems, even if the homes have 80A incoming fuses. Diversity is their friend.

 

[Crossy]

25 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

When I'm able to return I want to take my low power problem up with the PEA.

 

Much depends upon exactly what your "low power problem" is, PEA are very good at saying "you have electric, no problem" even if your supply is 180V.

[KhaoYai]

24 minutes ago, Crossy said:

In the UK the supply authorities budget for 2kW (yes, TWO kW) per property when sizing their systems, even if the homes have 80A incoming fuses. Diversity is their friend.

That would explain why we had such a fight to get our overhead upgraded.

[DrJack54]

An update and question for confirmation.

Had an electrician do some wiring. One thing was new power board. 

Since then have decided to put oven in kitchen. He will be putting a new circuit into kitchen to supply some new items such as overhead exhaust and other items even though the several power sockets work fine the cables look very light.

Am I correct in assuming that apart from that new cable that there will need to be a second separate cable with it's own circuit for the wall oven.

Any suggestions appreciated. Ta

Edited January 21, 2021 by DrJack54

[bankruatsteve]

7 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

even though the several power sockets work fine the cables look very light.

Am I correct in assuming that apart from that new cable that there will need to be a second separate cable with it's own circuit for the wall oven.

If the new circuit is on 20-24 amp breaker the wire size needs to be 2.5mm².  This will be printed on the cable.  Since it sounds like the oven will get limited use, it could be put on the same circuit and no need for a separate one.

[DrJack54]

1 minute ago, bankruatsteve said:

If the new circuit is on 20-24 amp breaker the wire size needs to be 2.5mm².  This will be printed on the cable.  Since it sounds like the oven will get limited use, it could be put on the same circuit and no need for a separate one.

Thanks.

In fact think the oven will hardly be used. Part of the reason for one new supply to kitchen is in counter top there is a induction 2 coil hotplate. I'm telling the electrician that we need an additional supply dedicated to the oven. Then he looks at me like I'm stupid. I word prefer the non-informed term.

I just recall in the very old days some large electric ovens had their own circuit.

I will make sure he uses cable up to the task as you suggest.

[bankruatsteve]

The normal residential oven here will draw about 10 amps with both elements on.  If used frequently, a separate circuit would be desirable to reduce the chance that other equipment on the same circuit when turned on at the same time could exceed the 20 amp breaker limit.  Even so, you could just not use other equipment on the same circuit while the oven is on but even if you do have an over-current trip, just turn something off, reset the breaker and no harm done.

[DrJack54]

20 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

The normal residential oven here will draw about 10 amps with both elements on.  If used frequently, a separate circuit would be desirable to reduce the chance that other equipment on the same circuit when turned on at the same time could exceed the 20 amp breaker limit.  Even so, you could just not use other equipment on the same circuit while the oven is on but even if you do have an over-current trip, just turn something off, reset the breaker and no harm done.

Will follow your advice. My electrician might think I grew a brain overnight. He had same suggestion that you outlined.

Ta.