UK and EU reach Brexit trade deal

[7by7]

2 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

There was already a benefit of Brexit proffered by some on here... a car factory did not lose jobs on exit (actually there have been 150 jobs lost - but the reasons cannot be necessarily linked to Brexit itself).   When your strongest single result is you did not lose jobs... you know everything is going very well ????

 

Indeed, @bkkcanuck8.

 

But jobs have, of course, been lost. Such as the 500 plus jobs lost when prominent leave campaigner Sir Jim Ratcliffe decided in December to build his new cars in France, rather than, as promised in September 2019, Wales.

[bkkcanuck8]

Just now, 7by7 said:

 

Indeed, @bkkcanuck8.

 

But jobs have, of course, been lost. Such as the 500 plus jobs lost when prominent leave campaigner Sir Jim Ratcliffe decided in December to build his new cars in France, rather than, as promised in September 2019, Wales.

I should have been more clear - the loss of jobs as a single result (i.e. the Nissan factory)... there have been an overall loss of jobs... though to be honest with any new change in the trading arrangement there would typically be a loss of jobs as the trade flows are realigned... which is usually offset long term by increases elsewhere longer time due to an increase in market access to larger markets ....  The UK is going the opposite direction -- dramatically reducing trade access.... hmm... reminds me of what happened preceding the great depression... 

[kingdong]

4 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

They are not theories.  I am quoting you and your ilk! 

 

Some may, eventually, realsie that they did not vote for the same thing or things as every other Brexiteer.  Xome may even relaise that voting to leave was a monumental mistake.  Not you, obviously, but some others might.

 

Meanwhile I will post what and when I wish.

 

PH

So what,i couldn,t give a tinkers cuss how other people voted,and as you,ve been told your continual digging out members and naming them for rheir views is a possible breaking of the rules,which would be a matter for the administration.

[Phulublub]

2 minutes ago, kingdong said:

So what,i couldn,t give a tinkers cuss how other people voted,and as you,ve been told your continual digging out members and naming them for rheir views is a possible breaking of the rules,which would be a matter for the administration.

More piffle.  Quoting what other members says is breaking the rules?   5555  (In a post where you name and quote me!)

 

If you actually engaged in debate and came up with facts rather than non-sensical ill thought contradictions then I would be happy to accommodate you.  But like some other Brexiteers all you do is sneer and denigrate those with opposite views, and the EU, usually without a shred of evidence and when called out with facts and evidence move the goalposts, or ignore, or obfuscate.  Or all three. 

 

Perhaps you ought to have some regard as to how other people voted, and discover why they voted the way they did. You might learn somethings. You might even  gain some knowledge that is to your advantage.

 

PH

[Tofer]

3 hours ago, Phulublub said:

Literally seconds of searching throws up several sources.

 

https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/covid-vaccine-uk/

 

https://www.gsk.com/en-gb/media/press-releases/sanofi-and-gsk-agree-with-the-uk-government-to-supply-up-to-60-million-doses-of-covid-19-vaccine/

 

https://www.euronews.com/2020/07/29/coronavirus-vaccine-uk-signs-new-deal-for-60-million-doses-of-potential-covid-19-solution

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8571173/UK-Government-signs-deal-drugs-giant-GSK-60-million-doses-potential-coronavirus-vaccine.html

 

You're so clever.

 

What these articles do prove is that the UK were way ahead of the game and committed to finding a solution, to ensure the supply of vaccines - well done UK. ????

[7by7]

6 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

<snip>

The UK is going the opposite direction -- dramatically reducing trade access

 Which is the reason given by Brexiteer Ratcliffe for moving to France from Wales; supply lines within the EU customs union being easier than from the EU to a non member, the UK.

 

Seems that the Brexiteer billionaire Sir Jim believes the effects of Brexit are ok for us plebs to suffer; but not those rich enough to afford to move to the EU and thus avoid them.

 

He is, of course, not the only rich Brexiteer to have taken such action; Jacob Rees-Mogg moving some of his investment funds to the RoI for example. I'm sure a bit of research will easily turn up more examples.

[7by7]

16 minutes ago, kingdong said:

<snip>

as you,ve been told your continual digging out members and naming them for rheir views is a possible breaking of the rules,which would be a matter for the administration.

 How come you have not made similar comments about or to your many Brexit fellow travellers who not only do exactly that; but go even further by regularly accusing those with whom they disagree of being traitors? 

 

But if you think that engaging in open debate with other members on an open forum is breaking that forum's rules; I'm sure that you don't need telling where the report button is.

[Tofer]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

I am not going to going through your entire list to see which are real and which made up.

 

Why? It hasn't stopped you before. But then, as you well know, it's just your typical disingenuous answer, to something you cannot dispute.

 

Being the grand master of quotations and fact finding, I'm sure you would have, if you could.... I rest my case.

 

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

As we are no longer a member we must accept that, subject to any and all agreements we have made or will make with them, we will be treated exactly the same as all other non members.

 

If only. I detect a bit of blinkered / selective, EU loving vision here.

 

E.g. The EU have managed to agree the equivalence of the US financial services already, but not with the UK, who have the same regulations in place, as you lot keep telling us we've simply been cutting and pasting the EU's policy. They just can't abide to see the UK prosper in any way, but must have access to funds outside of the capacity of the EU's financial services. Petty, vindictive and fearful!

 

Also they EU are doing deals with China, but question the UK's commitment to workers rights. You couldn't make it up.... What hypocrites!

 

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

These two simple points still seem beyond the understanding of the whinging Brexiteers who still want all the benefits of membership without any of the responsibilities. 

 

Total BS, we don't want the same benefits, simply fair treatment and cooperation within the trade agreement, which is what the EU signed up to, but seem incapable of honouring, since it might damage their precious club.

 

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

A prediction based upon the events of the last 5 years and the opinion of analysts in the UK who know far more about this than either you or I.

 

More unsubstantiated protestations. 

 

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

I have asked Brexiteers on many occasion for one single positive result of Brexit. Will you be the first to answer? By providing a "far less pessimistic and much more realistic" UK prediction, if you can find one.

 

Covid vaccination programme, and the UK's unfettered ability to make their own timely orders, outside of the ineffectual EU bureaucracy. Satisfied? I doubt it....

 

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

Yet you, and others, are now whinging because as we have now left they will no longer allow us to be protected by and benefit from those very same rules, laws and regulations!

 

Show me one example to prove your false and arrogant claim?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hi from France]

2 hours ago, candide said:

Right! She quickly changed her tone after the Brexit referendum, when people were starting to realise what a mess it was going to be.

about the extreme-right and Europe, you need also to factor in the fact that their identity is not just being french, it's being European (as opposed to "arabs" etc...). A lot of extreme right groups (we'd say groupuscules) call themselves "Europeans"

 

so the extreme right are nationalists, but no so anti-european, its more for an aggressive and closed Europe as opposed to a universal/humanist vision of Europe.

 

But this is still Europe, just another, not so friendly Europe.

 

 

I believe it wouldn't be very fun even for the current british national-populist government to face a different national-populist, extreme-right Europe (more Trump-like).

 

.

Edited January 29, 2021 by Hi from France

[Phulublub]

Just now, Tofer said:

 

No!, because the EU were originally blocking it's disclosure.

They were?  Not seen that...can you provide a link?

 

PH

[7by7]

35 minutes ago, Tofer said:

Why? It hasn't stopped you before. But then, as you well know, it's just your typical disingenuous answer, to something you cannot dispute.

 

Being the grand master of quotations and fact finding, I'm sure you would have, if you could.... I rest my case.

 You have no case to rest. As I said, some of your list is well known to be true, other parts not so well known. I can't be bothered to differentiate so have acted as if all of it is true.

 

I assumed that would please you; and now have to wonder why it doesn't!

 

38 minutes ago, Tofer said:

3 hours ago, 7by7 said:

As we are no longer a member we must accept that, subject to any and all agreements we have made or will make with them, we will be treated exactly the same as all other non members.

 

If only. I detect a bit of blinkered / selective, EU loving vision here.

 

Tell us; we chose to leave, so why should we now get special treatment denied other non members?

 

40 minutes ago, Tofer said:

E.g. The EU have managed to agree the equivalence of the US financial services already, but not with the UK, who have the same regulations in place, as you lot keep telling us we've simply been cutting and pasting the EU's policy. They just can't abide to see the UK prosper in any way, but must have access to funds outside of the capacity of the EU's financial services. Petty, vindictive and fearful!

 

Ignoring the previous negotiations scuppered by Johnson and his supporters for their own political ambitions, we have a withdrawal agreement hailed as a triumph by Johnson in January 2020 and a trade agreement announced by him in December with tin the same manner.

 

As you say these are so vindictive by the EU, why did Johnson make such a self aggrandising song and dance in announcing them?

 

I have no love for Johnson nor any of his cronies; but do believe that they know more about this matter than you. None of them have called anything about the WA or trade agreements nor their consequences to be EU pettiness or vindictiveness. Why is that?

 

48 minutes ago, Tofer said:

Also they EU are doing deals with China, but question the UK's commitment to workers rights. You couldn't make it up.... What hypocrites!

If doing deals with China is so bad; why has the UK been trying to strengthen ties with them since at least 2015? But without the clout of the EU behind us, that is now difficult: The End of a Wonderful Friendship and the Beginning of Trade Woes

Quote

 

China and the U.K. tried to be pals. That didn’t last. Now Beijing is seizing on the economic vulnerabilities arising from Brexit to press its advantage, just as it’s doing with Australia.

 

Where and when did the EU question the UK's commitment to workers rights? They are, after all , enshrined in the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020

 

1 hour ago, Tofer said:

Total BS, we don't want the same benefits, simply fair treatment and cooperation within the trade agreement, which is what the EU signed up to, but seem incapable of honouring, since it might damage their precious club

 In what way is the EU not honouring the trade agreement? How is it not giving us the fair treatment and cooperation required by that agreement?

 

Not the examples of areas not covered by any agreement which you whinged about before; but real examples of the real agreements actually being broken by the EU.

 

1 hour ago, Tofer said:

More unsubstantiated protestations. 

 Plenty of examples have already been given by myself and others in this topic and others.

 

A small amount of research will bring up many academic forecasts on the impact of Brexit on the UK's GDP; some positive, but most, like these from the UK government, negative. (I wonder why the government have not produced any forecasts since October 2019. Could it be the results of the trade agreement are not anticipated to be as wonderful for the UK economy as Johnson told us?)

 

1 hour ago, Tofer said:

Covid vaccination programme, and the UK's unfettered ability to make their own timely orders, outside of the ineffectual EU bureaucracy. Satisfied? I doubt it....

 Considering that the UK was still in the transition period and thus still governed by EU regulations and used those EU regulations to begin the vaccination programme; not a compelling argument on the positive effects of Brexit!

 

You really must try harder.

1 hour ago, Tofer said:

Show me one example to prove your false and arrogant claim?

 Apart from the regular unsubstantiated whinged complaints by you and your mate @Loiner you mean?

 

Such as those made by you in the post of yours I have quoted and responded to here!

[tebee]

3 hours ago, Tofer said:

.....

 

E.g. The EU have managed to agree the equivalence of the US financial services already, but not with the UK, who have the same regulations in place, as you lot keep telling us we've simply been cutting and pasting the EU's policy. They just can't abide to see the UK prosper in any way, but must have access to funds outside of the capacity of the EU's financial services. Petty, vindictive and fearful!

 

......

 

 

 

I think you'll find that the reason the EU refused to give the UK equivalence is because BJ's government insisted they wanted the right to make their own rules and deviate from the common standard with the EU, you know, this "Sovereignty" thing. 

[candide]

2 hours ago, Tofer said:

.g. The EU have managed to agree the equivalence of the US financial services already, but not with the UK, who have the same regulations in place, as you lot keep telling us we've simply been cutting and pasting the EU's policy. They just can't abide to see the UK prosper in any way, but must have access to funds outside of the capacity of the EU's financial services. Petty, vindictive and fearful!

Actually the equivalence granted to the US is very limited and has been made for specific reasons. It is only for derivative markets.

 

Why not to UK?

I guess one reason is the basis on which UK decided to negotiate, which led to the exclusion of services.

Another reason is that the post-Brexit UK regulation is not known. The government is under the influence of ultraliberal economists, so "taking back control" may result in a deregulation of the finance sector may be expected. It's better to wait that UK makes decisions before assessing the opportunity of granting some equivalence.

[kingdong]

3 hours ago, Hi from France said:

about the extreme-right and Europe, you need also to factor in the fact that their identity is not just being french, it's being European (as opposed to "arabs" etc...). A lot of extreme right groups (we'd say groupuscules) call themselves "Europeans"

 

so the extreme right are nationalists, but no so anti-european, its more for an aggressive and closed Europe as opposed to a universal/humanist vision of Europe.

 

But this is still Europe, just another, not so friendly Europe.

 

 

I believe it wouldn't be very fun even for the current british national-populist government to face a different national-populist, extreme-right Europe (more Trump-like).

 

.

Europe should be very proud of their outstanding concern for the human rights of migrants who as i speak are busy assimilating themselves into europes customs and way of life.

[Hi from France]

9 minutes ago, kingdong said:

Europe should be very proud of their outstanding concern for the human rights of migrants who as i speak are busy assimilating themselves into europes customs and way of life.

Besides the usual lingo, got something useful to contribute? Anything? 

[tebee]

Yet another Leave voter regrets their decision ....

 

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/business/2021/01/29/i-made-a-mistake-voting-for-brexit-says-business-as-stock-sits-waiting-to-leave-west-midlands/

 

'I made a mistake voting for Brexit' says business as stock sits waiting to leave West Midlands

[kingdong]

14 minutes ago, tebee said:

Yet another Leave voter regrets their decision ....

 

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/business/2021/01/29/i-made-a-mistake-voting-for-brexit-says-business-as-stock-sits-waiting-to-leave-west-midlands/

 

'I made a mistake voting for Brexit' says business as stock sits waiting to leave West Midlands

Obviously nothing to do with the current pandemic?wasnt too foreward in explaining the problems past " paperwork and having to pay 12% vat "its always someone elses fault.

Edited January 29, 2021 by kingdong

[bkkcanuck8]

18 minutes ago, kingdong said:

Obviously nothing to do with the current pandemic?wasnt too foreward in explaining the problems past " paperwork and having to pay 12% vat "its always someone elses fault.

At least she voted for it - the 'inconvenience' it has caused is because of what she asked for - not something that was forced on her against her will.   I am guessing she had to pay 20% on any input products that she is using for manufacturing, meaning the price she sells them at has an additional value of 8% for what they sell in the UK.   If she was able to export it, she would get back the VAT that she has paid would she not, then the importer (possibly her prepaying for the customer) would have to pay the VAT tax on the import (which when delivered would be paid by the customer)....  (she has to finance the inventory not sold but not actually pay the VAT herself in the end).

[kingdong]

1 hour ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

At least she voted for it - the 'inconvenience' it has caused is because of what she asked for - not something that was forced on her against her will.   I am guessing she had to pay 20% on any input products that she is using for manufacturing, meaning the price she sells them at has an additional value of 8% for what they sell in the UK.   If she was able to export it, she would get back the VAT that she has paid would she not, then the importer (possibly her prepaying for the customer) would have to pay the VAT tax on the import (which when delivered would be paid by the customer)....  (she has to finance the inventory not sold but not actually pay the VAT herself in the end).

 "She" only had 3 years to prepare and take into account these events,sorry about the corona virus but that isn,t the fault of brexit anyway must go,am watching the news,seems the eu are renaging on agreements already re the vaccine,oh well,start as you mean to carry on.

[kingdong]

2 hours ago, tebee said:

Yet another Leave voter regrets their decision ....

 

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/business/2021/01/29/i-made-a-mistake-voting-for-brexit-says-business-as-stock-sits-waiting-to-leave-west-midlands/

 

'I made a mistake voting for Brexit' says business as stock sits waiting to leave West Midlands

Its always somebody elses fault.

[bkkcanuck8]

3 minutes ago, kingdong said:

 "She" only had 3 years to prepare and take into account these events,sorry about the corona virus but that isn,t the fault of brexit anyway must go,am watching the news,seems the eu are renaging on agreements already re the vaccine,oh well,start as you mean to carry on.

 

The final Brexit deal and thus all the processes that were needed was only decided a week before implementation date.   If there were processes to follow and you could have planned ahead, finding out would have been difficult at best since you are talking to civil servants and they are going to tell you what you need to do now. 

[kingdong]

2 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

 

The final Brexit deal and thus all the processes that were needed was only decided a week before implementation date.   If there were processes to follow and you could have planned ahead, finding out would have been difficult at best since you are talking to civil servants and they are going to tell you what you need to do now. 

A lot of the delays were the fault of a remainer government and their antics unwilling to accept a peoples vote,and accept democracy.consequently it took another e!ection and a landslide victory for boris,who then had only 6 months before the brexit deadline,so perhaps " she " should see who engineered her current predicament

[kingdong]

10 hours ago, Hi from France said:

Good thing, the guy's main quality was to be a Brexiteer and to like to humiliate the EU, that made him the idol of Brexiteers, but as a negociator, he was a rookie. 

 

.. And even more incompetent on national security. 

 

Again his best asset was to be a Brexiteer, while other competent FO high level diplomats were not.. 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/29/brexit-negotiator-david-frost-pulled-away-from-national-security-role

 

 

As a result, the trade deal we are discussing here now is very bad for the UK, but I'm still not sure our Brexiteers are aware. 

 

If they could the UK government would renegue, like they did on the Withdrawal Agreement. 

 

. 

On your last point just like the eu are doing as i post regarding the vaccine.

Edited January 29, 2021 by kingdong

[nauseus]

11 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

Take your pick!

 

Lazy.

[nauseus]

10 hours ago, candide said:

It's interesting to note that the only two policies you highlight (tax policy and security policy) are policies which are largely outside the scope of the EU.

 

 

Not for long. That's the point.

[bannork]

Trouble at t'mill

https://www.thestar.co.uk/business/south-yorkshire-and-derbyshire-bosses-brand-brexit-deal-total-disaster-set-cost-jobs-and-close-companies-3114964

[nauseus]

10 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 The three areas you have mentioned are all under the purview of the governments of individual member states; not the EU.

 

As are the vast majority of other areas of government and legislation.

 

Evolution and mutation which has only happened with the unanimous approval of the members.

 

 Go on, what are those goals which will lead to a European super state?

 

Real ones, this time; not your usual fantasies.

 

All areas are likely to come under greater centralized EU control, like everything else. 

 

Evolution and mutation which has only happened because there were no further UK referendums before 2016.

 

Goals? Ever closer union of course! You remainers seem to know so little about the EU that you love so much.

[candide]

1 hour ago, kingdong said:

A lot of the delays were the fault of a remainer government and their antics unwilling to accept a peoples vote,and accept democracy.consequently it took another e!ection and a landslide victory for boris,who then had only 6 months before the brexit deadline,so perhaps " she " should see who engineered her current predicament

 

1 hour ago, kingdong said:

Its always somebody elses fault.

????

[candide]

17 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

 

Not for long. That's the point.

These topics are subject to unanimity vote, so nothing could have been decided against UK's will.

Actually It's now a possibility as UK is not able to vote any more.

[Phulublub]

1 hour ago, kingdong said:

A lot of the delays were the fault of a remainer government and their antics unwilling to accept a peoples vote,and accept democracy.consequently it took another e!ection and a landslide victory for boris,who then had only 6 months before the brexit deadline,so perhaps " she " should see who engineered her current predicament

Six months plus andother six months and the oven ready best deal in history was finally concluded a week before the event....and turns out to be pretty much a complete crock.

 

The fault lies in those who would not allow a confirmatory vote once we could actually see what a disaster this was likely to be.

 

PH